Have we failed to capitalize on our baseball past?

Shamoan

Redshirt
Jun 27, 2013
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its long, so you have been warned.

with all our storied history in baseball, the all americans, the mlb pedigree, the huge attendance numbers....we still seem unable to get over the hump mentally. lsu is an outstanding squad, and are typically, and this weekends poor showing isnt necessarily the crux of my argument, but we have really squandered a great bit in our inability to produce championship teams.

you look at sec baseball and you think lsu (1), south carolina (2), and mississippi state (3)....at least i do from an unbiased perspective. last season gave me some serious hope regarding our prospects for a title, but as i reflect over our whole past, its astounding how much our program has squandered when you consider the talent, history, and tradition we have.

on one hand, you look at a comparable baseball program in south carolina....who on their 9th and 10th trips to the cws, won their two titles....we played for one on our 9th, but came up short. then, i look at the team we brought last season and think that we really overachieved and played well above our talent level...yet the frustration remains....with our overall inability to get over the proverbial hump and establish ourselves as a dominant team even in our division.

i try to remind myself that lsu got swept on the road just last week to a florida team that seems to be somewhat inconsistent...and this is an extremely tough league. that said, the disappointment of this weekend just makes it that much more painful. we still seem to be trying to figure things our (not just as a lineup, but as a program as a whole) and in the meantime, our built-in competitive advantage of a wonderful history, great traditions, etc is diminishing as the rest of the sec continues to wake up and close the gap in sec baseball.

we havent produced a sec title since 1989....NINETEEN FREAKING EIGHTY NINE. its been TWENTY FOUR FREAKING YEARS since our last regular season title. that is not acceptable. now, the reality of the situation is that we are in the midst of a fragile rebuild of the devastation of polk II. im a realist, but when you look at the grand scheme of things, how committed to winning are we really?

we wont even make a solid commitment to giving our players the best stadium in the sec....in a sport where we cherish success more than most sec schools. we have to be 100% committed to doing whatever it takes....a singular relentless focus on becoming and maintaining an elite level. right now, it pains me to say we are half-assing the things we do regarding our baseball squad.

now, juxtapose that with this weekend. lsu is dangerous, but reeling from a 1-3 week. it seemed from the beginning, we succumbed to mental weakness and we showed fear. they beat us before we even stepped out on the diamond, and have done so for quite some time now. lsu has a swagger that we lack...a confidence that comes from being there, and its apparent that we lack that killer instinct. sure, we can complain about ****** umpire calls (and you wouldnt be wrong in doing so), but the fact of the matter is, we had some really poor at-bats and i think its a mental problem.

nobody gives a **** about our former all americans, or attendance records, or number of first rounders. we need to harden between the ears and become the program we are destined to be before our chance slips past us. we are still riding the wave of our past success and not seizing current opportunity by the reigns. nobody is going to lay down for us and we are going to have to earn things the hard, gut-wrenching way, just like everybody else. we, as fans, are going to have to turn a corner because living in the past is killing our opportunity for the future. that starts in dedicating ourselves to being elite again, playing with swagger, and reinvesting in the success of our current teams instead of sitting on our asses waiting on the huge numbers before we commit to building the park that we deserve. floundering at .500 baseball does not command respect amongst our peers. we have to bridge the gap between where we are and where we want to be in some way and we need to get busy doing it.


so i ask you, regardless of what you think about my above rant, how committed are we to winning? where are areas the administration, coaches, and fans need to improve? how can we find that ultimate success and what will it take? we should no longer be satisfied with the status quo. we need to become more like lsu baseball and uk basketball. if we close the disconnect between where we think we are and where we actually are in the grand scheme of things, i think we can achieve that, but its not going to be easy. i think we have the coach to do it, but we have to get some damn hitters. this small-ball is only effective against marginal-to-poor pitching. when you face quality pitching, you are going to have to earn it and it is apparent we fall substantially short in that area.


i have kinda gone buckshot all over the place, so forgive the rant, but our commitment, mental approach, feeling of entitlement, and general lack of performance in the clutch have been bothering me and i wanted to bring a general discussion on what to fix and how to fix it. to me, it boils down to commitment, and we are getting outpaced by teams we see as peers in that regard.
 
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ronpolk

All-Conference
May 6, 2009
9,158
4,762
113
I admit I did not read the entire post. However, we are announcing either significant renovations or a brand new stadium in the near future. Our head coach is one of the highest paid in the country. Yes, we are committed to winning in baseball.

I think some of you guys are over reacting a bit. You references UK basketball. A year after winning a title they failed to make the tournament. Teams have down years. In our case we had a bad start and 2 bad weekends (Arizona and LSU). Our pitching is too good for us to not win several games.
 

Thrl595

Redshirt
Jul 2, 2013
168
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Legacy was tarnished when Palmerio did Viagra commercial... not so much when he lied to a congessional committee.
 

8dog

All-American
Feb 23, 2008
14,019
5,924
113
I cant read all that but here:

Its not like ron polk would like to make it out to be but now that many teams care about baseball, being msu baseball is tougher. We dont have gobs of talent in the area, we compete against two other schools and we are on the short end of the scholarship situation with most schools.

Again its not like polk would ha e you believe. But what bianco and
Cohen have done is fantastic.

I do think the nee facility.. Whatever it may be will help
Us
 

Statedog101

Redshirt
Jan 30, 2014
264
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0
In the eighties when we were the only sec school to care about baseball, Polk underachieved and allowed those with money to use it and catch up and pass State. The Polk 2 was just a disaster.

Cohen came in here convinced that nobody could hit homers or drive the ball so he has recruited little fast slap hitters.

Saw a post on another message board where someone talked to a player in baton rouge this weekend who said he came to state as a slugger and Cohen has turned him into a slap hitter. Said player was very unhappy. Hearing more and more rumors about players who are unhappy about Cohen's style and philosophy. Gonna be interesting if this season goes south on how the players react. I think you could see a number of players gone at the end of the year.
 

8dog

All-American
Feb 23, 2008
14,019
5,924
113
Same song 6th verse.

We have won 3 of our first 4 series. People act like we arent going to make a regional.
 

ronpolk

All-Conference
May 6, 2009
9,158
4,762
113
In the eighties when we were the only sec school to care about baseball, Polk underachieved and allowed those with money to use it and catch up and pass State. The Polk 2 was just a disaster.

Cohen came in here convinced that nobody could hit homers or drive the ball so he has recruited little fast slap hitters.

Saw a post on another message board where someone talked to a player in baton rouge this weekend who said he came to state as a slugger and Cohen has turned him into a slap hitter. Said player was very unhappy. Hearing more and more rumors about players who are unhappy about Cohen's style and philosophy. Gonna be interesting if this season goes south on how the players react. I think you could see a number of players gone at the end of the year.

I feel like people say this every year. Yet we have not had a rash of unexpected transfers under Cohen. Here is a question for you guys frustrated with what you guys call "small ball" under Cohen. Name one team that has come to DNF and hit a bunch of home runs? There is a reason UCLA and State ended up in the finals last year. Home run hitters are nothing but warning track fly ball hitters at DNF and Omaha.
 

Shamoan

Redshirt
Jun 27, 2013
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im not convinced that we are committed. i think we do enough to get by and where we fail is proactively and aggressively doing everything it takes to get us to take the next step. we dont know what the stadium will be....just talk and a pie-in-the-sky watercolor picture that was released as part of our master plan....nothing solid, nothing concrete...just dink-and-dunk upgrades to an aged facility. we cant even agree on whether or not to start from scratch or to rebuild completely. for a committed program, i argue the answer is clear and by not acting in this and other areas, it shows a lack of commitment.

we have the resources, the enthusiasm, the tradition, yet lack the all-important x factor. we are nothing more than a good baseball school and i for one am ready to take the next step. we should be getting more and as the gap closes, we are losing precious built-in advantage.
 

57stratdawg

Heisman
Dec 1, 2004
148,414
24,193
113
It's nice to see you bringing something new to the discussion..

Saw a post on another message board where someone talked to a player in baton rouge this weekend who said he came to state as a slugger and Cohen has turned him into a slap hitter. Said player was very unhappy. Hearing more and more rumors about players who are unhappy about Cohen's style and philosophy. Gonna be interesting if this season goes south on how the players react. I think you could see a number of players gone at the end of the year.

We can't even find out on a weekly basis who is on the 27 man roster. Doesn't look like the Canadiens are on it. You hear rumors about players being unhappy and maybe transferring after the season. I wish somebody knew what was going on.

http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/showthread.php?124349-Daniel-Garner&p=991715#post991715

Are Cody Walker and Daniel Garner still on the team. They haven't sniffed the field in weeks. Humphreys played last night for the first time in forever. Also Kyle Hann. Somebody on another message board said Humphreys and Garner may transfer. Anybody got any inside info.

http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/showthread.php?123984-Where-are-they-at&highlight=transfer
 

Shamoan

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Jun 27, 2013
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i get what you are saying and totally agree with the concept, but what happens when you have slap hitters that cant even slap hit?

i have said it before and ill say it again, with little exception, i think pitchers cringe when they see our lineup...not because they are filled with a bunch of badass hitters, rather, a bunch of patient guys with good eyes. i think that is the type of guy cohen has recruited, and i think its a good strategy for the most part, but the problem comes in when you face really good pitching. we arent good hitters, just patient, high OBP guys. if we could mix in some improved hitting, we could be killer. mostly, we just keep getting runners on inning after inning through walks and wait for opportune hits in the hopes that sooner or later, we will get the timely hit if we keep getting runners in scoring position. that has largely worked even with, at times, sub-par athletes in SOME positions and in the lineup.

when you run into two great arms, we are going to lose series because we cant hit and teams with great pitching make you beat them. those are the teams we (and many others) will struggle with. its a philosophy that sure as hell got us to the brink last year, but im not sure if it can get us over the hump against great arms (ie, the two guys from ucla) if we continue to fill the lineup with guys that struggle to get hits.

perfect illustration: right now, we are tied with georgia for 10th in the sec in BA @ .270 as a team, but our OBP is .378...good enough for 4th and we are 2nd in walks. (stats arent updated with the last update on april 3rd, so these will go down). we just really struggle to get bat on ball.
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
56,880
26,287
113
Not reading anything that long, but we forfeited any advantage we had from out baseball past by coasting through most of time from 1993 - 2007 while the rest of the SEC became the best baseball conference in the country. We've only started getting serious about it again in the last 4-5 years.
 

Statedog101

Redshirt
Jan 30, 2014
264
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I agree, I call it the wasted 15 years.. Not a coincidence that was about the time Polk was more interested in fighting the ncaa than his own program. That whole era was a mess, with the pat McMahon coach in waiting then leaving after four years, and bringing Polk back.
 

MaronMatters

Redshirt
Aug 22, 2012
603
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Said player was very unhappy. Hearing more and more rumors about players who are unhappy about Cohen's style and philosophy. Gonna be interesting if this season goes south on how the players react. I think you could see a number of players gone at the end of the year.

THIS **** again?! Geez, man.....go for a walk.
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
56,880
26,287
113
We should have just let Polk retire the first time he announced his retirement in 1992/1993. He was never really interested in making MSU baseball the best it could be after then.
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
56,880
26,287
113
We have won 3 of our first 4 series. People act like we arent going to make a regional.
Won 3 out of 4 series is the good spin on being 6-6. We probably will make a regional, but we won't be hosting one.
 

Lee Corso

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Oct 13, 2012
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its long, so you have been warned.

with all our storied history in baseball, the all americans, the mlb pedigree, the huge attendance numbers....we still seem unable to get over the hump mentally. lsu is an outstanding squad, and are typically, and this weekends poor showing isnt necessarily the crux of my argument, but we have really squandered a great bit in our inability to produce championship teams.

Florida State, North Carolina, Oklahoma State, probably have our same gripes. Good, but not championship material/unable to win it all. Last year, for us to be in the final game was unreal.

I kinda have to agree, though. With names like Clark, Palmerio, Thigpen, etc., we kinda let things slip away.
 

Shamoan

Redshirt
Jun 27, 2013
12,466
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exactly...you fall in love with the history, but when you snap back to reality, you find yourself being lulled to sleep because its going on 3 decades without a regular season title. for a school that prides itself on baseball, that is unacceptable. parallel that with DNFs fall from grace and no longer being even in the top 3 in our own division, it makes me wonder how committed we really are.

msu baseball is unique, so why do we downplay the uniqueness and let the field catch up to us? ole miss (however unlikely with bianco at the helm) is a hot streak in omaha (ie, a national title) away from supplanting msu as the best baseball school in the state. one title would immediately vault them into a superior position. honestly speaking, that should scare every one of us to death....not because where their program is, but rather, where our program is in relation to our inability to separate ourselves from the pack despite our tremendous pedigree. state is arguably the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best baseball school in the sec depending on how you look at it, as lsu, usc, and georgia all have titles with alabama having one more runner-up appearance, which is negligible, so lets just say we are 4th based on post-season hardware. making it to the cws is great, but after 9 trips, its time we start capitalizing and i think that calls for a reboot of how we do things and how we support the team. we need to bring everything up to an elite level again and that requires a singular focus and relentless drive that i think we lack.
 

Palos verdes

Redshirt
Aug 22, 2012
1,839
36
48
its long, so you have been warned.

with all our storied history in baseball, the all americans, the mlb pedigree, the huge attendance numbers....we still seem unable to get over the hump mentally. lsu is an outstanding squad, and are typically, and this weekends poor showing isnt necessarily the crux of my argument, but we have really squandered a great bit in our inability to produce championship teams.

you look at sec baseball and you think lsu (1), south carolina (2), and mississippi state (3)....at least i do from an unbiased perspective. last season gave me some serious hope regarding our prospects for a title, but as i reflect over our whole past, its astounding how much our program has squandered when you consider the talent, history, and tradition we have.

on one hand, you look at a comparable baseball program in south carolina....who on their 9th and 10th trips to the cws, won their two titles....we played for one on our 9th, but came up short. then, i look at the team we brought last season and think that we really overachieved and played well above our talent level...yet the frustration remains....with our overall inability to get over the proverbial hump and establish ourselves as a dominant team even in our division.

i try to remind myself that lsu got swept on the road just last week to a florida team that seems to be somewhat inconsistent...and this is an extremely tough league. that said, the disappointment of this weekend just makes it that much more painful. we still seem to be trying to figure things our (not just as a lineup, but as a program as a whole) and in the meantime, our built-in competitive advantage of a wonderful history, great traditions, etc is diminishing as the rest of the sec continues to wake up and close the gap in sec baseball.

we havent produced a sec title since 1989....NINETEEN FREAKING EIGHTY NINE. its been TWENTY FOUR FREAKING YEARS since our last regular season title. that is not acceptable. now, the reality of the situation is that we are in the midst of a fragile rebuild of the devastation of polk II. im a realist, but when you look at the grand scheme of things, how committed to winning are we really?

we wont even make a solid commitment to giving our players the best stadium in the sec....in a sport where we cherish success more than most sec schools. we have to be 100% committed to doing whatever it takes....a singular relentless focus on becoming and maintaining an elite level. right now, it pains me to say we are half-assing the things we do regarding our baseball squad.

now, juxtapose that with this weekend. lsu is dangerous, but reeling from a 1-3 week. it seemed from the beginning, we succumbed to mental weakness and we showed fear. they beat us before we even stepped out on the diamond, and have done so for quite some time now. lsu has a swagger that we lack...a confidence that comes from being there, and its apparent that we lack that killer instinct. sure, we can complain about ****** umpire calls (and you wouldnt be wrong in doing so), but the fact of the matter is, we had some really poor at-bats and i think its a mental problem.

nobody gives a **** about our former all americans, or attendance records, or number of first rounders. we need to harden between the ears and become the program we are destined to be before our chance slips past us. we are still riding the wave of our past success and not seizing current opportunity by the reigns. nobody is going to lay down for us and we are going to have to earn things the hard, gut-wrenching way, just like everybody else. we, as fans, are going to have to turn a corner because living in the past is killing our opportunity for the future. that starts in dedicating ourselves to being elite again, playing with swagger, and reinvesting in the success of our current teams instead of sitting on our asses waiting on the huge numbers before we commit to building the park that we deserve. floundering at .500 baseball does not command respect amongst our peers. we have to bridge the gap between where we are and where we want to be in some way and we need to get busy doing it.


so i ask you, regardless of what you think about my above rant, how committed are we to winning? where are areas the administration, coaches, and fans need to improve? how can we find that ultimate success and what will it take? we should no longer be satisfied with the status quo. we need to become more like lsu baseball and uk basketball. if we close the disconnect between where we think we are and where we actually are in the grand scheme of things, i think we can achieve that, but its not going to be easy. i think we have the coach to do it, but we have to get some damn hitters. this small-ball is only effective against marginal-to-poor pitching. when you face quality pitching, you are going to have to earn it and it is apparent we fall substantially short in that area.


i have kinda gone buckshot all over the place, so forgive the rant, but our commitment, mental approach, feeling of entitlement, and general lack of performance in the clutch have been bothering me and i wanted to bring a general discussion on what to fix and how to fix it. to me, it boils down to commitment, and we are getting outpaced by teams we see as peers in that regard.

I agree with your rant for the most part. I don't think we ever do quite enough, almost enough in some cases, but too often, we fall short. I am very impressed with our football stadium expansion, but MSU still has the 'chicken little' problem that we deal with. We simply haven't won enough in anything, including baseball, to grow beyond these insecurities. Just like every time we face Lsu, we feel insecure. We know it and they know it. The result will continue to be the same as long as we except that they are just better than us, so why bother. We have not fully matured as a fanbase in the way that LSU has done. Through success, it has had a galvanizing effect on their confidence. This affects players the same way.

The same goes for the whole athletic administration. They tend to correlate to fan expectations. We have excepted less than excellence for far too long. The win some, lose some mentality has cost us dearly. Of course you're always going to lose some, but we need to focus on winning, and solely on winning. What are our expectations? Everyone says they want to win, but not everyone is equally entrusted in the desire and willingness to take those necessary steps. We have to work harder than most, but until we step up our expectations, we'll stay where we are forevermore. I run into too many fans that are content with that, and all is well to them. That's ok if you're content with losing to the bigger programs, every year, from now on.

In order to get back to the top in baseball, we need a stadium that's better and more appealing to the common fan than any in our league. Baseball is our claim to fame, and we need to capitalize on it this time. This is within our immediate control. We have enough tradition and the unique branding flavor, plus we can recruit from coast to coast. I would refuse to let LSU stay in front of us. It is imperative that we show this commitment when we unveil our new stadium.

Enjoy the victories and enjoy the growth that we are experiencing. Be a proud supporter, but demand excellence in everything we do in the future.
 

8dog

All-American
Feb 23, 2008
14,019
5,924
113
Considering thats the best 12 game start under cohen and we have never won 3 of our first 4 and did it against the toughest stretch of the schedule it aint bad. We likely wont host not because of a 6-6 start but because of non conf.
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
56,880
26,287
113
That says more about where our baseball program has been the last decade or so than about what a great start we've gotten off to in the SEC.
 

8dog

All-American
Feb 23, 2008
14,019
5,924
113
Pat, we went to super regionals and the cws under cohen. We were probably team 17 or 18 in 2012. We have done just fine lately
 

patdog

Heisman
May 28, 2007
56,880
26,287
113
We were gifted the 1st super regional when GA Tech lost to Lets Go Peay and USM was decimated by injury. We weren't the 17 or 18 team in 2012 and we got destroyed by Samford twice. I like what Cohen has done so far and our program is WAY ahead of where it was at any time under Polk II, but when a 6-6 SEC start is considered good, we've still got a ways to go.