Honest question for those who lived through Vietnam

[Festivus Miracle]

In the first 41 years of my 60, America fought hard for liberty but they fought it on other soil. 911 and now this fight for our liberties has hit in our back yards by so-called fellow Americans. That is the large difference I see.

Communism was always the enemy but the protesters of the 60's and 70's never really openly lobbied for it the way they do now. The threat was to come from across the waters whether it be from Russia or Cuba. War haters in the those days just wanted peace (no police intervention), love (sex without consequences), and rock n' roll (not that there is anything wrong with that).

The division is greater today. It is within our families (a great part of the Communist Manifesto that has come to fruition) and it is eating away at our constitution. I still believe there is a remnant of Americans that will fight for their liberties therefore I have hope. But the chasm is widening all the time.

 

[chroix]

In the first 41 years of my 60, America fought hard for liberty but they fought it on other soil. 911 and now this fight for our liberties has hit in our back yards by so-called fellow Americans. That is the large difference I see.

Communism was always the enemy but the protesters of the 60's and 70's never really openly lobbied for it the way they do now. The threat was to come from across the waters whether it be from Russia or Cuba. War haters in the those days just wanted peace (no police intervention), love (sex without consequences), and rock n' roll (not that there is anything wrong with that).

The division is greater today. It is within our families (a great part of the Communist Manifesto that has come to fruition) and it is eating away at our constitution. I still believe there is a remnant of Americans that will fight for their liberties therefore I have hope. But the chasm is widening all the time.

It's so true. It's really crazy to see Republicans embrace socialism with the bailouts and Communism by effectively seizing control of production of meat packing industry. I hope the Democrats can protect our liberties.

 

[Deeeefense]

The hate is very notable and overt with many of the young militant lefties. It seems that there are plenty of hard-core dims and libs that would literally sacrifice their young children at the alter if it meant defeating Trump or "winning" over the conservatives.

There's always two sides to polarization, maybe you missed this one:

 

[Kai Slater]

There's always two sides to polarization, maybe you missed this one:

Yes indeed, there are extremes on both sides.

 

[BlueVelvetFog]

There's always two sides to polarization, maybe you missed this one:

Hacksaw Jim Duggan!

 

[Kai Slater]

Hacksaw Jim Duggan!

Yeah!! Hacksaw was quite a character.

 

[Festivus Miracle]

I never understood how they let Hacksaw bring a 2 by 4 into the ring. It almost seemed rigged.

 

[Tskware]

We all 100% support the right to protest our government. Frankly, I think it the time has come that the economic costs of shutdown are going to outweigh the health benefits of further social distancing.

That being said, not sure why some feel like bringing guns to the Capital is necessary. Are they afraid of being shot by the state police for exercising free speech? Or are they trying to intimidate elected officials, some of whom wore bullet proof vests to the Michigan legislature yesterday. That does not look like America to me.

 

[IdaCat]

It's so true. It's really crazy to see Republicans embrace socialism with the bailouts and Communism by effectively seizing control of production of meat packing industry. I hope the Democrats can protect our liberties.

Yes, because temporary emergency actions are the same as permanent long-term policies that lead to the destruction of the country.

 

[Festivus Miracle]

We all 100% support the right to protest our government. Frankly, I think it the time has come that the economic costs of shutdown are going to outweigh the health benefits of further social distancing.

That being said, not sure why some feel like bringing guns to the Capital is necessary. Are they afraid of being shot by the state police for exercising free speech? Or are they trying to intimidate elected officials, some of whom wore bullet proof vests to the Michigan legislature yesterday. That does not look like America to me.

I suppose it was a statement on gun rights. It did seem backwoods and unnecessary, maybe even diminished their legitimacy. But it was a statement about the legitimacy of our constitution.

And, yes, for sure we knew the time would come that the economic suffering would outweigh the social distance benefits. I agree we are there. Some Governors seem to think we haven't arrived quite yet.

 

[Deeeefense]

I suppose it was a statement on gun rights

I just hope that those that want the state to follow the federal guidelines don't decide to exercise their constitutional rights by showing up at the state capital with their loaded guns.

 

[chroix]

Yes, because temporary emergency actions are the same as permanent long-term policies that lead to the destruction of the country.

Slippery slopes and what not.

 

[Festivus Miracle]

I just hope that those that want the state to follow the federal guidelines don't decide to exercise their constitutional rights by showing up at the state capital with their loaded guns.

It is their right, common sense or not. Which really cuts to the heart of all of this. We have thrown common sense totally out the window in many respects. No, it is not against the law to bear arms openly in the Lansing capitol building. But wouldn't a little common sense tell you to leave them in your vehicle? Yes, social distancing works but a little common sense also tells you that lives will be lost due to an economic shutdown. Pre-Corona common sense would tell us to wash our hands after we take a crap; don't go to work sick; and don't go around Granny when you have the flu. But it happened before and will probably happen again. Just difficult to legislate common sense but that is what is having to happen right now.

 

[IdaCat]

Slippery slopes and what not.

It's more slippery for one party than the other.

 

[starchief]

Yeah!! Hacksaw was quite a character.

He was supposedly going to let them cut his hair in the ring if he lost a match. He lost. The next day in a studio the film showed him sitting dazed on a stool in the ring and someone standing behind him with scissors. The film suddenly went black and he came raging into the studio with film wrapped all around him, yelling that they were not about to air that film. It was hilarious. I've looked all over for that clip but have never found it.

 

[chroix]

It's more slippery for one party than the other.

Deviation from core principles or some other more arbitrary metric?

 

[IdaCat]

Deviation from core principles or some other more arbitrary metric?

It's entertaining hearing about core principles coming from a member of the party pushing the Green New Deal.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

I always thought how crazy it would have been to live through the 60s. 1962 was buzz haircuts, khakis and Leave it to Beaver, and by 1967 it was tie-dyed shirts, long hair, and 'tune in, turn on and drop out' - the counter culture was in full swing. The country became unrecognizable in 5 short years, give or take.

I have to admit, we're living through a time that is a close second. Although I have to wonder how much of the discord is among a relative few. I remember reading once how the media and political parties take their cue from Twitter - that determines for them what stories are worth covering, and to a great extent what the "right" opinion is. 20% of the country is active on twitter, and of those only 15-20% engage in political issues. So everyone is taking their marching orders based on 3-4% of the population. If you just look at that 3-4%, and the media and parties, you get the certain impression we are torn apart and can't be put back together. But walking the streets, big towns and small, you don't get that sense.

Mojocat's Law: both political sides have fringe extremists, and each side thinks the fringe elements on its side are negligible and should be disregarded, while the fringe elements on the other side are representative of that side.

 

[chroix]

It's entertaining hearing about core principles coming from a member of the party pushing the Green New Deal.

I see your Green New Deal (which is on brand) and counter with fiscal conservatism and your party’s propensity to add trillions to the national debt.

 

[chroix]

Mojocat's Law: both political sides have fringe extremists, and each side thinks the fringe elements on its side are negligible and should be disregarded, while the fringe elements on the other side are representative of that side.

This is a smart and accurate take.

 

[IdaCat]

I see your Green New Deal (which is on brand) and counter with fiscal conservatism and your party’s propensity to add trillions to the national debt.

Both party's are guilty of adding to the debt. Obama certainly did. But at an estimated 93 trillion, the GND socialism takes it to another level.

 

[Festivus Miracle]

Mojocat's Law: both political sides have fringe extremists, and each side thinks the fringe elements on its side are negligible and should be disregarded, while the fringe elements on the other side are representative of that side.

I agree with this statement as well. Pre-Corona, I used to comment to my wife how IF you listen to the media (on both sides of the aisle) and observe how real life actually is, you realize it really doesn't match, at least not in my neck of the woods; two totally different realities.

 

[chroix]

Both party's are guilty of adding to the debt. Obama certainly did. But at an estimated 93 trillion, the GND socialism takes it to another level.

That is a made up price for a hypothetical plan. I’m talking about real numbers. Show me a time in modern history when a Republican administration has reduced our national debt.

 

[bigsmoothie]

Both party's are guilty of adding to the debt. Obama certainly did. But at an estimated 93 trillion, the GND socialism takes it to another level.

Trump too.

 

[IdaCat]

That is a made up price for a hypothetical plan. I’m talking about real numbers. Show me a time in modern history when a Republican administration has reduced our national debt.

I never said they did. You might want to pay attention.

You're stuck with a party full of socialists pushing GND, identity politics, PC religion, and other leftist insanity. When your presumed presidential candidate campaigns on it, I take him seriously. It is the destruction of America.

 

[chroix]

I never said they did. You might want to pay attention.

You're stuck with a party full of socialists pushing GND, identity politics, PC religion, and other leftist insanity. When your presumed presidential candidate campaigns on it, I take him seriously. It is the destruction of America.

I’m an independent. I’m stuck with all of the ********.

 

[IdaCat]

I’m an independent. I’m stuck with all of the ********.

Most of them are, on both sides.

 

[Tannerdad]

Since and during the last 4 years of Bush, they all spent like drunken sailors, including Trump.

 

[bigsmoothie]

Since and during the last 4 years of Bush, they all spent like drunken sailors, including Trump.

When trump was running and said he would eliminate the deficit easily I knew it was a total lie.

 

[Tannerdad]

When trump was running and said he would eliminate the deficit easily I knew it was a total lie.

They all say it. Of all the campaign promises given, this is the one least likely to happen.

 

[BlueVelvetFog]

He was supposedly going to let them cut his hair in the ring if he lost a match. He lost. The next day in a studio the film showed him sitting dazed on a stool in the ring and someone standing behind him with scissors. The film suddenly went black and he came raging into the studio with film wrapped all around him, yelling that they were not about to air that film. It was hilarious. I've looked all over for that clip but have never found it.

I still maintain he stole his yell from Ed McMahan

 

[MdWIldcat55]

50 years ago Monday the National Guard, called out because rioters had burned an ROTC building, shot four young people dead and wounded a couple dozen others at Kent State.

Half the country thought the hippies had it coming and the other half considered the National Guard Nazi storm troopers.

I think the country was more divided then,

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

That is a made up price for a hypothetical plan. I’m talking about real numbers. Show me a time in modern history when a Republican administration has reduced our national debt.

I've made this point before, but I'll make it again. The administration does not control the purse strings. It's more accurate to look at which party controlled congress in relation to how the debt changed. I'm not sure why people attribute everything that happens to the President when we have very distinct separation of powers.

 

[chroix]

I've made this point before, but I'll make it again. The administration does not control the purse strings. It's more accurate to look at which party controlled congress in relation to how the debt changed. I'm not sure why people attribute everything that happens to the President when we have very distinct separation of powers.

The separation of powers is not all that distinct any more. Maybe once upon a time it was.

But I will grant you it is a loaded question. So that said has there ever been a time when a Republican controlled congress reduced the national debt?

 

[chroix]

50 years ago Monday the National Guard, called out because rioters had burned an ROTC building, shot four young people dead and wounded a couple dozen others at Kent State.

Half the country thought the hippies had it coming and the other half considered the National Guard Nazi storm troopers.

I think the country was more divided then,

I agree. We’ve got 15% fringe max on either side that are a lot more vocal than the middle 70%.

 

[Nubb16]

People tend to knee jerk to now for many things. I wasn’t alive during Vietnam but I am well read as a historian. I think people now are overly dramatic about stupid **** but this nation isn’t that divided as much as it’s just perception. I will say this that politicians are more divided. Parties to not mingle or cross over much now and they don’t strike a lot of political deals with one another in an effort to compromise in the name of our country like a lot of politicians have in the past.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

The separation of powers is not all that distinct any more. Maybe once upon a time it was.

But I will grant you it is a loaded question. So that said has there ever been a time when a Republican controlled congress reduced the national debt?

I didn’t look it up, so I may be wrong, but didn’t that happen under Clinton?

 

[wildcatdon]

Yep. When they killed Kennedy, the country was never the same. To the day I die, I will always believe LBJ was part of the assassination.

Agree with that. Get the book Best Evidence and watch the History Channel special, The Men Who Killed Kennedy and it will make your hair stand straight up. Everywhere.