I don’t think there is anything wrong with the big ten style of basketball.

[rutgersquikcat]

I keep reading posts here and on social media that the big ten is being exposed. However, as someone who has watched a lot of college basketball I can’t help but think this is getting exaggerated a little bit.

What I see from watching league play is that the big ten is full of teams that are likely, quality wise, 11-6 seeds. Very few weak teams, but also very few dominant teams. Without a dominant team to get attention, people then want to say the whole league is garbage, but I don’t think the evidence is there to back that up.

Not to mention March madness is exciting, because the tournament is crazy and unpredictable. You can’t judge any team by one game, so the slams against Purdue are a little much. Just like every year in football some teams lose to a division 2 opponent. I don’t think Purdue was up to the quality of a 1 seed, but I also think they played a bad game that made them look worse than they were.

I don’t think refs have much to do with the big ten not winning it for a long time, and I don’t even think it’s style of play. I think big ten teams pick their styles based off the personnel they have. I think the problem is if you are a good team but not a dominant team, it’s really hard to win that many games row.

 

[Jtg=04131996]

It’s not just this year. If it were I’d agree. We don’t really have a great team this year just a bunch of good ones (except we did have a great team and they lost to a 16 seed).

It’s moreso previous years. It’s been such a consistent theme of our best teams crashing out early. This is just the previous two years - may be missing some.
2 seed OSU losing to Oral Roberts
2 seed Iowa losing to Oregon
1 seed Illinois losing to Loyola
3 seed Wiscy losing to ISU
3seed Purdue losing to St. Peter’s
4 seed Purdue losing to North Texas

 

[pigmasty83]

RU is 5th in country in defensive efficiency. The top 4 are still in the tournament. We need more scoring to go along with the D and we will be ok. Gavin?

 

[MiloTalon13]

RU is 5th in country in defensive efficiency. The top 4 are still in the tournament. We need more scoring to go along with the D and we will be ok. Gavin?

Not just Gavin but the others coming in 2023 and 2024 too.
We are well positioned to be not just a very good B1G team but a deep NCAA Tournament team
It's a great time to be a Rutgers Basketball Fan

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I was at Session 2 and 3 in Orlando.

I saw San Diego State win the defense
I saw Tennessee win with D

Tennessee looks exactly like us pre Mag injury except they wore Orange.

I have enough data to conclude there is something to conclude we underperform as a conference.

I have a tougher time identifying why.

 

[MiloTalon13]

I was at Session 2 and 3 in Orlando.

I saw San Diego State win the defense
I saw Tennessee win with D

Tennessee looks exactly like us pre Mag injury except they wore Orange.

I have enough data to conclude there is something to conclude we underperform as a conference.

I have a tougher time identifying why.

If it's 4-5 things and one of those is luck, data analysis will have a tough time solving it.

 

[RU_DIO]

I keep reading posts here and on social media that the big ten is being exposed. However, as someone who has watched a lot of college basketball I can’t help but think this is getting exaggerated a little bit.

What I see from watching league play is that the big ten is full of teams that are likely, quality wise, 11-6 seeds. Very few weak teams, but also very few dominant teams. Without a dominant team to get attention, people then want to say the whole league is garbage, but I don’t think the evidence is there to back that up.

Not to mention March madness is exciting, because the tournament is crazy and unpredictable. You can’t judge any team by one game, so the slams against Purdue are a little much. Just like every year in football some teams lose to a division 2 opponent. I don’t think Purdue was up to the quality of a 1 seed, but I also think they played a bad game that made them look worse than they were.

I don’t think refs have much to do with the big ten not winning it for a long time, and I don’t even think it’s style of play. I think big ten teams pick their styles based off the personnel they have. I think the problem is if you are a good team but not a dominant team, it’s really hard to win that many games row.

Need fast guards who can take over games. Big, slow guards are being eaten up in the tournament.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I was at Session 2 and 3 in Orlando.

I saw San Diego State win the defense
I saw Tennessee win with D

Tennessee looks exactly like us pre Mag injury except they wore Orange.

I have enough data to conclude there is something to conclude we underperform as a conference.

I have a tougher time identifying why.

I wasn't in Orlando, but Tennessee 1 through 5, is bigger, stronger and more talented than RU.....and that gap from player 6 to 10 is enormous.

In terns of San Diego State, they have a much thinner talent level, but are just better at 3 of the 5 spots in comparison to RU. I think Caleb would fit it well at a San Diego State, as would Cliff (obviously).

 

[RU MAN]

The OP is spot on, especially this year. The B1G had "solid" teams this year, not superior teams. Yes, we only have one team in the Sweet 16 but the majority of the 8 teams were bunched between 11 and 6, with Indiana a 4 and Purdue a 1.

Indiana got exposed last night. And IMO, it was not because Miami was such a better team, but because Woodson like Painter REFUSED to play zone. When we played Miami and were leading up to the end of the game without Paul or a fully healthy Caleb, we mixed our defenses and when we played zone that slowed down the Miami offense so they couldn't get up the floor so quickly as well as getting so many offensive rebounds for putbacks.

I believe if Woodson and Painter had gone to zone and mixed it up I think the outcomes would have been much different in those two games and we would be talking about 3 teams in the Sweet 16 instead of one.

 

[MadRU]

Everyone is mentioning Gavin, Ace, and hopefully Dylan, and rightfully so, but Dellquan is really one to watch. High level speed pass first guard that also can score at all three levels.

Also Baye looks like a steal too. Future does seem very promising.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I wasn't in Orlando, but Tennessee 1 through 5, is bigger, stronger and more talented than RU.....and that gap from player 6 to 10 is enormous.

In terns of San Diego State, they have a much thinner talent level, but are just better at 3 of the 5 spots in comparison to RU. I think Caleb would fit it well at a San Diego State, as would Cliff (obviously).

IF we played a 30 minute game with mag against Tenneessee we might be a bETTER TEAM.

mag is hurt and games arent 30 minutes.

I am rooting for them the rest of the way just because i respect the way they plan and how much they remind me of us. They are a bad half court offensive team.

 

[pmvon]

It’s not just this year. If it were I’d agree. We don’t really have a great team this year just a bunch of good ones (except we did have a great team and they lost to a 16 seed).

It’s moreso previous years. It’s been such a consistent theme of our best teams crashing out early. This is just the previous two years - may be missing some.
2 seed OSU losing to Oral Roberts
2 seed Iowa losing to Oregon
1 seed Illinois losing to Loyola
3 seed Wiscy losing to ISU
3seed Purdue losing to St. Peter’s
4 seed Purdue losing to North Texas

Do you think any of those teams were actually better teams?

 

[PiscatawayMike]

Everyone is mentioning Gavin, Ace, and hopefully Dylan, and rightfully so, but Dellquan is really one to watch. High level speed pass first guard that also can score at all three levels.

Also Baye looks like a steal too. Future does seem very promising.

Indeed, if all the players you mentioned wind up on the banks, RU will be loaded for bear.

 

[kcg88]

IF we played a 30 minute game with mag against Tenneessee we might be a bETTER TEAM.

mag is hurt and games arent 30 minutes.

I am rooting for them the rest of the way just because i respect the way they plan and how much they remind me of us. They are a bad half court offensive team.

They were better -- not GOOD, but better than they are now -- in the halfcourt before Zakai Zeigler got hurt.

 

[Jtg=04131996]

Do you think any of those teams were actually better teams?

What do you mean? Were the teams they lost to better?

No, but I was just illustrating the theme that our best teams have consistently underperformed in March. That Illinois 1 seed with Cockburn and Dosunmu was scary. I didn’t even mention last year’s Iowa who won the B1G tournament then crashed out to Richmond.

 

[jerseybird]

Big Ten basketball teams are designed & built to compete and succeed in a 20-game league season. It is somewhat of a marathon to reach the end of the regular season intact and peaking performance-wise. The B10 had 8 teams qualify for the tournament with Rutgers being a couple of losses away from also getting in. This is the standard I use to measure the quality of teams in the B10 each year. One of my variables for the tournament concerns which team is peaking and on fire. FDU caught lightning in a bottle, yet they lost by double digits to a very different St. Peters team early in the season. The tournament is great for showcasing the more obscure flash-in-the-pan teams but doesn't measure the quality of play over a whole season's worth of tough games.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

They were better -- not GOOD, but better than they are now -- in the halfcourt before Zakai Zeigler got hurt.

I only saw them play after.

Maybe they have more players capable of scoring off the dribble, but if so not by much.

They might have a higher quantity of potential 3 point shooters.

They definitely have a bigger bench.

They don't have a Cliff.

I think people forget where we were prior to the Mag injury. On paper we played at a very high level when we were completely healthy. Now the big question i always had was how we would hold up playing that hard without utilizing the bench.

 

[Scangg]

I was at Session 2 and 3 in Orlando.

I saw San Diego State win the defense
I saw Tennessee win with D

Tennessee looks exactly like us pre Mag injury except they wore Orange.

I have enough data to conclude there is something to conclude we underperform as a conference.

I have a tougher time identifying why.

Yup, the remaining teams are filled with the top defensive teams in the country. It basically kills the offense only matters argument many have been pushing

The answer is the lack of speedy guards and athletic wings

It's also a reason to be more bullish on Rutgers future. Pike will always have good defensive teams but now he is bringing in faster quicker guards and extremely athletic bigger players like Ndongo and Ace and trying to fix the shooting with guys like Cam and Griffiths

Pike is adjusting

 

[ScooterSports]

It’s really just the top teams don’t perform well. In the last 4 tournaments (including this year), there’s been 10 B1G teams in the field of 64 as a 9 or lower seed. Those 10 teams are 8-2 in first round games.

 

[MiloTalon13]

Yup, the remaining teams are filled with the top defensive teams in the country. It basically kills the offense only matters argument many have been pushing

The answer is the lack of speedy guards and athletic wings

It's also a reason to be more bullish on Rutgers future. Pike will always have good defensive teams but now he is bringing in faster quicker guards and extremely athletic bigger players like Ndongo and Ace and trying to fix the shooting with guys like Cam and Griffiths

Pike is adjusting

Yup - if we can not slip too much defensively and make big strides offensively... we will be top 20 and not sweating next selection Sunday. I believe!

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Yup - if we can not slip too much defensively and make big strides offensively... we will be top 20 and not sweating next selection Sunday. I believe!

CLIFF has to return. No Cliff and NCAAs are a long shot.

 

[MiloTalon13]

CLIFF has to return. No Cliff and NCAAs are a long shot.

Cliff or a transfer. I don't know who, but we could be even better with a transfer.
I don't know if the right transfer exists.
I've said it before, we could have lesser player at center than Cliff and be better as a team.
I also hope Pike goes small next year more often, he did it very little this year.

 

[JavaDunk18]

I was at sessions in Orlando, Part of backup plan if RU did not get in. Even though far from a collegiate atmosphere like SDSU last year, I really liked the venue. Good sight lines, great sound, decent food & lots of updates from other games on the big screen.
What was painful about selection Sunday, was that I did not go into it sweating whether we would get in, but if there would be a detour in Dayton. When all of the first four teams were selected, and an 11 was still available in the East Region, I was certain it would be RU..A direct trip to Greensboro, with possible return to MSG - & of all things would have been with MSU again. I was with friends watching selections at Sports bar, and after RU not being selected, immediately told waitress to wrap the food as I had lost my appetite. I can't imagine what was going through player's minds at that time!
I believe even this years talent could have put us in that 4-6 range, before the injury. Despite the loss of Caleb, the defense should stay the same with Mag's return, with a big jump in the offense with Gavin & whoever else might be sneaking through the portal.
Cliff, I believe will be back, but the offense will be very different.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Cliff or a transfer. I don't know who, but we could be even better with a transfer.
I don't know if the right transfer exists.
I've said it before, we could have lesser player at center than Cliff and be better as a team.
I also hope Pike goes small next year more often, he did it very little this year.

NOOOOOOOOOO!

Our defense starts with Cliff.

You don't replace Cliff in the portal.

The numbers do not lie with Cliff in and Cliff out of the game.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I was at sessions in Orlando, Part of backup plan if RU did not get in. Even though far from a collegiate atmosphere like SDSU last year, I really liked the venue. Good sight lines, great sound, decent food & lots of updates from other games on the big screen.
What was painful about selection Sunday, was that I did not go into it sweating whether we would get in, but if there would be a detour in Dayton. When all of the first four teams were selected, and an 11 was still available in the East Region, I was certain it would be RU..A direct trip to Greensboro, with possible return to MSG - & of all things would have been with MSU again. I was with friends watching selections at Sports bar, and after RU not being selected, immediately told waitress to wrap the food as I had lost my appetite. I can't imagine what was going through player's minds at that time!
I believe even this years talent could have put us in that 4-6 range, before the injury. Despite the loss of Caleb, the defense should stay the same with Mag's return, with a big jump in the offense with Gavin & whoever else might be sneaking through the portal.
Cliff, I believe will be back, but the offense will be very different.

Enough of Marquette man and the dancing guy from Tenneessee! And those weirdo 4 Furman dancing girls?

 

[MiloTalon13]

NOOOOOOOOOO!

Our defense starts with Cliff.

You don't replace Cliff in the portal.

The numbers do not lie with Cliff in and Cliff out of the game.

You don't replace Cliff, you don't replace Caleb, you don't replace Paul or even Hyatt
You replace or exceed their value with other players
Didn't you ever watch Moneyball?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You don't replace Cliff, you don't replace Caleb, you don't replace Paul or even Hyatt
You replace or exceed their value with other players
Didn't you ever watch Moneyball?

There is a limited supply of shot blocking 5s. There is a huge supply/demand imbalance.

Harrar or CJ Gettys as alternatives are huge gets as a replacement 5 and they would still set our defense backwards quite a bit.

I know Cliff has disappointed the fanbase, but I am telling you he is a REALLY good college basketball player

 

[RUbacker]

RU is 5th in country in defensive efficiency. The top 4 are still in the tournament. We need more scoring to go along with the D and we will be ok. Gavin?

It’s crazy that people want us to drop our defensive identity and just focus on offensive explosion. We need to keep the D top notch , we just need more of an offense to compliment. Imagine if our O was above average and our D stayed dominant ?

 

[Rusty_Screw_88]

Quality depth will move mountains for us. You look at several teams that hung tough or are still playing, they rotate 9 or more. When you can do that without a big drop off in talent, you will hang with anyone. In reading one of the potential transfers comments, it looks like we will have a shake up on the roster. I am hoping that we will secure a stronger roster depth wise next season.

 

[MiloTalon13]

There is a limited supply of shot blocking 5s. There is a huge supply/demand imbalance.

Harrar or CJ Gettys as alternatives are huge gets as a replacement 5 and they would still set our defense backwards quite a bit.

I know Cliff has disappointed the fanbase, but I am telling you he is a REALLY good college basketball player

I agree that Cliff is a very valuable college basketball player.
I'm saying if he leaves, we could replace him with someone who doesn't block as many shots or get as many dunks who is also a valuable basketball player but in a different way, and be a top team in the Big 10 and a high NCAA seed. (COULD being a crucial word above).

Cliff is very valuable, he also limits what we can do as a team offensively.
For example, if I were Pike and Cliff said he'd come back but he needs more low post-touches and to take 3's, I'd say thank you and goodbye.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You underestimate Cliffs worth to the team

 

[MiloTalon13]

You underestimate Cliffs worth to the team

Not at all. He's very valuable. We could be just as good or better as a team with a Rebraca type who is not as good defensively but much better offensively.
Rebraca was pretty close to Cliff in terms of overall value this past season.
We couldn't play exactly the same to maximize a guy like Rebraca but Pike's strength is he recognizes and maximizes what he has.

 

[pmvon]

Cliff is always there. 100%. What he gave to that team was/is underestimated. Yes limited low post moves but does so much more than the vast majority of college big men with his athleticism.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Not at all. He's very valuable. We could be just as good or better as a team with a Rebraca type who is not as good defensively but much better offensively.
Rebraca was pretty close to Cliff in terms of overall value this past season.
We couldn't play exactly the same to maximize a guy like Rebraca but Pike's strength is he recognizes and maximizes what he has.

5 laps and 4 90 second planks!

Stop it with Rebraca.

 

[JavaDunk18]

Unfortunately if I go to regional final in MSG (ticket prices are tanking) will probably have to see more of Dancing Tennessee fan.
Kansas St was actually my pick to win the region..

 

[RUisB1Gtime]

Future is bright for RU. Good recruits, good roster, good coach, rabid fan base...

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Unfortunately if I go to regional final in MSG (ticket prices are tanking) will probably have to see more of Dancing Tennessee fan.
Kansas St was actually my pick to win the region..

I like them a lot too. I wish Tennessee was in a different region

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Not just Gavin but the others coming in 2023 and 2024 too.
We are well positioned to be not just a very good B1G team but a deep NCAA Tournament team
It's a great time to be a Rutgers Basketball Fan

Yes.. agree.. I just hope they don't give up before even getting here. It took a lot for them to say YES.. they had to agree to play hard defense.. that spoke highly of them and of Rutgers... that they want that challenge. Scoring is the only thing lacking now and they can bring up... but we'll have to be a little patient.. it will take time to gel as a defense and to up their game to Big Ten level.

 

[Yeah Baby]

Not at all. He's very valuable. We could be just as good or better as a team with a Rebraca type who is not as good defensively but much better offensively.
Rebraca was pretty close to Cliff in terms of overall value this past season.
We couldn't play exactly the same to maximize a guy like Rebraca but Pike's strength is he recognizes and maximizes what he has.

No I don’t think so. He fits with Iowa’s style. Cliff is a much better player and the perfect fit for how we play.

 

[MiloTalon13]

No I don’t think so. He fits with Iowa’s style. Cliff is a much better player and the perfect fit for how we play.

I like watching Cliff play, I hope he comes back.

We're not going to get someone just like him, or just like him but better to replace him, regardless of when that needs to happen.

If we could get a guy who is a worse defender but still a decent defender and a better offensive player by a wider margin than he is a worse defender, that could make us better as a team (I use Rebraca as an example). Especially since our offensive utilization of Cliff has gotten away from an efficient lob threat and into an inefficient low-post player.

We could discuss the value of Cliff vs Rebraca but I think that would be a new thread.