I get the vacating wins and the 60 million. The rest is wrong.

[Bulldog Bruce]

It is fine that the NCAA does not want the "All Time Winningest Coach" to be Joe Paterno. It is fine to have the $60 million fine to setup some sort of endowment to help victims of this heinous crime. But all the other stuff is there for what? a deterrent?

I pretty much think Joe's meteoric fall from grace from the icon of "all that is good in college football" to where he is now of being removed from history of college football and jail time and financial ruination of the other men actually involved in the crime is deterrent enough. This other stuff punishes all the wrong people. It punishes current players and all other student/athletes and students, fans who knew nothing of this and look forward to football Saturdays, and people that make a living from football Saturdays. It also does nothing for the victims. This is a bit of overkill just for political reasons.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

It is fine that the NCAA does not want the "All Time Winningest Coach" to be Joe Paterno. It is fine to have the $60 million fine to setup some sort of endowment to help victims of this heinous crime. But all the other stuff is there for what? a deterrent?

I pretty much think Joe's meteoric fall from grace from the icon of "all that is good in college football" to where he is now of being removed from history of college football and jail time and financial ruination of the other men actually involved in the crime is deterrent enough. This other stuff punishes all the wrong people. It punishes current players and all other student/athletes and students, fans who knew nothing of this and look forward to football Saturdays, and people that make a living from football Saturdays. It also does nothing for the victims. This is a bit of overkill just for political reasons.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

It is fine that the NCAA does not want the "All Time Winningest Coach" to be Joe Paterno. It is fine to have the $60 million fine to setup some sort of endowment to help victims of this heinous crime. But all the other stuff is there for what? a deterrent?

I pretty much think Joe's meteoric fall from grace from the icon of "all that is good in college football" to where he is now of being removed from history of college football and jail time and financial ruination of the other men actually involved in the crime is deterrent enough. This other stuff punishes all the wrong people. It punishes current players and all other student/athletes and students, fans who knew nothing of this and look forward to football Saturdays, and people that make a living from football Saturdays. It also does nothing for the victims. This is a bit of overkill just for political reasons.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

It is fine that the NCAA does not want the "All Time Winningest Coach" to be Joe Paterno. It is fine to have the $60 million fine to setup some sort of endowment to help victims of this heinous crime. But all the other stuff is there for what? a deterrent?

I pretty much think Joe's meteoric fall from grace from the icon of "all that is good in college football" to where he is now of being removed from history of college football and jail time and financial ruination of the other men actually involved in the crime is deterrent enough. This other stuff punishes all the wrong people. It punishes current players and all other student/athletes and students, fans who knew nothing of this and look forward to football Saturdays, and people that make a living from football Saturdays. It also does nothing for the victims. This is a bit of overkill just for political reasons.

 

[8dog]

punishing staffs and players that had no involvement. That aspect is not unique to this situation.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

...that's a very insulated community, and everybody knew everybody else. Jerry Sandusky was an open secret. They even had an Ice Cream Sundae named for him:<div id="isChromeWebToolbarDiv" style="display:none"></div><div>

</div><div>I think the harsh penalties are as much to knock some sense into the State Penn fans as it is to punish the school. One of their most beloved coaches was raping little boys, and their iconic coach was covering it up to chase a record in a game. Their fans rioted after Paterno was fired, and most of their fan base is still in denial. </div>

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

Even if some fans heard a rumor or two, it doesn't mean they knew. I think it is any stretch to blame more than the 5 or 10 people that have been involved in this criminal action and the Freeh report.

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

i disagree. an ncaa violation is usually not punishable by law. therefore the only recourse and form of deterrentis to punish the school. in this case, criminal laws were violated and those involved are in jail or soon to be in jail, therefore, there is little reason to punish the program to act as a deterrent.

 

[mstateglfr]

I get that it penalizes people who had nothing to do with the scandal, but really, you think nothing should have happened?

The players are all allowed to leave without sitting out a year, so the athletic side of their college experince can still happen in full(and really, most of them are there primarily for the athletic side).
Yes they are negatively affected, but it has been mitigated as much as possible.

It penalizes fans, but it will force the fans to demand a better run athletic department.
It penalizes the athletic department a TON, and rightfully so since they should be held accountable for letting this go on so long.

It penalizes Paterno, but so what, he is dead.
It doesnt penalize Sandusky, but so what, he is going to jail.

Penalties like this need to be viewed as what will happen if schools decide to be unethical. And not just unethical with gaining a competitive advantage, but unethical with more easily influenced minors.

Many powerful peoplewithin the school and athletic department have been penalized because of this. What they have worked for is ruined, i would say they are penalized.
Personally, i would like to see everyone that covered this up or knew about it tolose their jobs, but that is for another time.

 

[futaba.79]

in that community. It's not like it's Choctaw County. A few important people knew about Sandusky, and those few looked the other way while he victimized children. A few more may have had questions and suspicions. The average student/alum/fan found out about all this the same way we did.

A precedent has been set. The power of the NCAA has dramatically increased. And everybody applauds.

 

[patdog]

in the last 10 years. Can you honestly tell me that you think what was going wasn't common knowledge in the community? Why else wouldn't one of the top defensive coordinators in college football be able to get a high school.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

However, this is almost as bad. State College, PA is like a small college town where everybody knows everybody else, and generally knows everybody's business. The reaction of the Penn State fan base and locals shows me a town and fan base that has no perspective on what the rest of the nation thinks of them (being Mississippians, we should know all about local insularity in the face of National Perception). <div id="isChromeWebToolbarDiv" style="display:none"></div><div>
</div><div>The impression I get is that the only reason they're mad at Sandusky is that he got caught, and that they think Joe Paterno covering for his Assistant was a good and noble thing.
</div>

 

[boatsnhoes]

and maybe in the end it won't have the desired affect or maybe it will.

the whole point is an a university president (whom was highly respected, and was in leadership positions for committees governing conduct for other institutions), an athletic director, and a head coach knew sexual abuse against children was going on and concealed it for the betterment of football. They decided football was more important than basic human decency. That culture is wrong...the culture that is penn state now is wrong...the culture that thinks Joe Pa. was innocent...the culture that didn't want his statue taken down.A lotare still in denial there and vehemently defending spaynor, joe, or the AD.

Those innocent kids on the team can still play football just not at penn state. Penn State needs to sit and think about what they have done for a while. Their football program should be non-existent for a while and this would achieve that.

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

I get that it penalizes people who had nothing to do with the scandal, but really, you think nothing should have happened?

The players are all allowed to leave without sitting out a year, so the athletic side of their college experince can still happen in full(and really, most of them are there primarily for the athletic side).
Yes they are negatively affected, but it has been mitigated as much as possible.

It penalizes fans, but it will force the fans to demand a better run athletic department.
It penalizes the athletic department a TON, and rightfully so since they should be held accountable for letting this go on so long.

It penalizes Paterno, but so what, he is dead.
It doesnt penalize Sandusky, but so what, he is going to jail.

Penalties like this need to be viewed as what will happen if schools decide to be unethical. And not just unethical with gaining a competitive advantage, but unethical with more easily influenced minors.

Many powerful peoplewithin the school and athletic department have been penalized because of this. What they have worked for is ruined, i would say they are penalized.
Personally, i would like to see everyone that covered this up or knew about it tolose their jobs, but that is for another time.

those involved are being penalized though. they are receiving a penalty far worse than knowing that the football program is getting punished. the ncaa should be there to punish those that violate rules but aren't subjected to criminal charges.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

....most top assistants to great football programs go on to other colleges. Sandusky never even got an interview. Word was, Joe Paterno told other schools to not hire him.<div id="isChromeWebToolbarDiv" style="display:none"></div><div>
</div><div>Just thought about it: Does this make other coaches and other Universities complicit in Sandusky's actions?</div>

 

[Hector.sixpack]

my guess is they will clearly state that Athletic Programs will have to abide by the law of the land as well as recruit ethically. Also, the NCAA rulings are always scrutinized, and rightfully so, but its made up of the colleges themselves. The Board (which is made up of college Presidents) gave Emmert the power to exercise this ruling.Universities don't have to be a part of the NCAA, but when they choose to be, they have to follow the rules and accept the judgements.

Its not a perfect system, but as long as people are involvedthere is going to be holes in judicial systems.

I'm all for theHAMMER that has hit the last nail in Joe's coffin. It seems just to me.

 

[Xenomorph]

It's much worse than the death penalty.<div>
</div><div>Man, you can say some dumb ****.</div>

 

[GloryDawg]

they got what they deserved.

 

[LiterallyPolice]

There could have been murmurs... and people could have been able to see that he was a creep. Also, they could have known about the 1998 investigation. But it's a large leap of logic to assume that everyone in the community knew the severity and scale of what was going on.

 

[GloryDawg]

bd

 

[BiscuitEater]

Even if some fans heard a rumor or two, it doesn't mean they knew. I think it is any stretch to blame more than the 5 or 10 people that have been involved in this criminal action and the Freeh report.

that the fans are getting punished also BUT each and every coach on the FB staff 'knew all' about Sandusky. No different than the mafia and the 'firm.' Just look at the longivity of the cooaches involved. Average time at PSU ~20 years. Most had played at PSU when Sandusky was still coaching.


They joined 'THE' program; it rewarded them well and they knew that they had little worry about being fired. Paterno was pulling the strings and leading the cover up and nobody at PSU was going to do anything about it ... period.

 

[HammerOfTheDogs]

...with the atmosphere of a small midwestern college town. If they came up with lighter sanctions, the NCAA would've totally discredited itself. They have to let member schools know that this moral atrocity could NEVER be condoned. As a matter of fact, I'm surprised there aren't more of these scandals out there: Trusted coach, in charge of a large group of young people, who has power over them.<div id="isChromeWebToolbarDiv" style="display:none"></div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

 

[RonnyAtmosphere]

...none of this was unprecedented.


It's amazing an American univeristy's athletic dept. can serve as a nexus of child molestation for many year running, yet the punishment is a big fine & the same sanctions the NCAA served Alabama for Albert Means.

 

[bullysleftnut]

The Penn State head football coach and athletic department dictated to the university powers how a felony charge was to be covered up to protect their image.

If that isn't textbook Lack of Institutional Control I don't know what is. The NCAA *HAD* to hammer Penn State in this situation. Otherwise they may as well close up shop.

As far as 'hurting innocent people', did anyone care about the USC football players that got hammered 6 years after Reggie Bush left for the NFL? What about the coaches that got hammered the year after Pete Carroll left for the Seahawks?

That argument doesn't hold water.

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

Universities don't have to be a part of the NCAA, but when they choose to be, they have to follow the rules and accept the judgements.

Its not a perfect system, but as long as people are involvedthere is going to be holes in judicial systems.

there's already been talk of in the near future themajor CFB programs breaking away from the NCAA to govern themselves with a more "modern" approach to CFB and CBB.you think bama and florida and texas and usc and every other program in the country aren't watching this wondering if they'll one day get the hammer dropped on them because of a coach breaking the law? what about a player testing positive for drugs, but the coach handles it internally? technically, if the coach isn't turning the kid over to the authorities every time they test positive for drugs, he's "covering up" for the kid by either not suspending him or suspending him for "violating team rules." iknow it's easy to say this is a unique case, extreme harm, yadda yadda yadaa, but the power that just went to the NCAA opens the door for this and more. where does the line get drawn? domestic abuse? rape of an adult? drug use? drug dealing? dui? which crimes rise to these "unique"circumstances? and does the coach/admin have to actively "cover up" for them? or is it enough to merely not ask questions? while hammering penn st for giving unchecked power to a football coach, emmert simultaneously grabbed for unchecked power of the NCAA. imo, this could be the beginning of the end of the NCAA governing major CFB.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

The dead guy has been disgraced for as long as college football exists.

You think people in power in the Universities and Colleges would decide to try and do a similar coverup prior to the NCAA punishment announcement? I don't think the loss of schollies and bowl ban would be the tipping point. I think all these guys have been deterred with the criminal actions and public reactions.

 

[Rutherford B Hays]

Posted before the sanctions came down, but you can't miss the message.
Yes, I think is should have been tougher.
**************************
I am dubious about all the talk
about the "unprecedented"
nature of the expected NCAA sanctions. The program will not be suspended or
given the "death penalty," but reportedly will suffer a loss of scholarships and
loss of bowl opportunities. But that sounds like the typical punishment for
major violations, including what USC received a few years ago. Unless the number
of lost scholarships or the length of the postseason ban is so great (say, 10
scholarships a year for more than five years and a bowl ban of 5-10 years), I am
not sure what is so unprecedented.

The University reportedly also will be
fined between
$ 30 million and $ 60 million; that could be the unprecedented part, called
by one source "a fine like no fine before." But I am not sure how a big fine
that targets the university and not the football program, while perhaps
unprecedented, is uniquely damaging to the program, especially as compared with
shutting down the program for a year. Finally, the NCAA arguably has departed
both from its own procedures (no hearing, no investigation, using special
processes with the express permission of the NCAA's board of directors) and its
own substantive limitations (sanctioning for actions that have nothing to do
with the NCAA's rules and everything to do with the university's connections to
the civil and criminal justice systems). That is unprecedented. But that just
may be another way of saying the NCAA is treading into dangerous waters and will
be forced to present clear and forceful justifications in support of these
sanctions.

A source in the stories linked above said Penn State might
have preferred a flat one-year ban, suggesting the effects of the scholarship
reductions, bowl ban, and fines will be felt longer. One source argued that
saying this is not the death penalty is just semantics. I am hard-pressed to
imagine a body of sanctions that really will make PSU folks wish the NCAA had
just shut them down for a year or two. But forget the noise from pundits and
sources about "never see[ing] anything like it." Consider how quickly USC
bounded back from its loss-of-scholarship/bowl-ban sanction. Unless the NCAA
delivers something an order of magnitude beyond that, I cannot conceive of these
sanctions doing to Penn State what the death penalty did to SMU. Obviously, we
will see tomorrow.

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

Even if some fans heard a rumor or two, it doesn't mean they knew. I think it is any stretch to blame more than the 5 or 10 people that have been involved in this criminal action and the Freeh report.

Agreed.Very foolish to think this was a wide spread conspiracy.

If this deal was so widely known, the lidwould have blown off longyears ago.

 

[LiterallyPolice]

These people were, first and foremost, acting as employees of Penn State. The legal term for this is, I believe, "agency". All of these individuals were an extension of Penn State, were acting on behalf of Penn State, and their motives were to protect Penn State.

Now, in some cases, individuals act so egregiously on behalf of an organization that they face personal criminal charges as well. This doesn't erase the first part, the need to punish the organization.

The collateral damage argument is hollow; almost all crimes have collateral damage associated with the punishment. Family members, taxpayers, etc. In this case... there are many innocent people involved with Penn State athletics that will suffer. But the blame for this should fall on those that committed the crimes, not the ones handing out the punishment.

 

[thunderclap]

so the football program they used as a shield has to pay the price. I have no problem with any of it.

 

[patdog]

But it had to have been common knowledge around the community that there was something bad going on and you'd better not let Sandusky anywhere near your children.

 

[ckDOG]

You can't ignore a $60 million fine and ***** that the media lied about it being "unprecedented". I'm pretty comfortable with headlines reading "unprecedented penalties" with that amount actually having been levied. $60M isn't an immaterial fact you can just overlook. Pick something else to ***** about. PSU football is in a world of hurt for a long time...

 

[LiterallyPolice]

and I agree completely.

 

[seshomoru]

The NCAA has no business focussing what the actual scandal was. It was horrific in this instance in that children were the victims. However, the NCAA should have looked totally past what the scandal was, and looked straight at what allowed something like this to occur. It was the culture of the athletic department, the culture of the University, and the culture of the board. It was a corrupted mess with all the power in the wrong place. If things at Penn State were running properly, there's two or three victims. Still horrific, but it would have been stopped if Penn State was run properly. The NCAA should have shut the whole damn department down. That would be a message that other universities need to hear. Don't let athletics get in the way of what matters at a University. Don't allow a program, especially one person, to have so much power that he can squash a horrific scandal with a simple email. Because there will be other cover ups and other scandals at other schools. Hopefully the scandal doesn't carry so many innocent victims as this one, but there will be something. Hell, it almost got out of control with Baylor basketball however many years back.

Something will happen again because the NCAA missed the chance to shut down a program that had become bigger than the University. They chickened out and showed how gutless that organization really is.

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

Consider how quickly USC bounded back from its loss-of-scholarship/bowl-ban sanction. Unless the NCAA delivers something an order of magnitude beyond that, I cannot conceive of these sanctions doing to Penn State what the death penalty did to SMU.

USC has yet to even feel the pain of the scholarship reductions. they appealed the NCAA ruling, allowing them to sign full classes the last 2 cycles under kiffin/ogeron. they lost the appeal and this is the first year their scholarshipshit will take effect. kiffin basically went all in for early successin hopes that in the logn run it garners him enough good will to weather the storm that's coming in about 2 years when the roster is shallow and depleted.

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

The Penn State head football coach and athletic department dictated to the university powers how a felony charge was to be covered up to protect their image.

If that isn't textbook Lack of Institutional Control I don't know what is. The NCAA *HAD* to hammer Penn State in this situation. Otherwise they may as well close up shop.

As far as 'hurting innocent people', did anyone care about the USC football players that got hammered 6 years after Reggie Bush left for the NFL? What about the coaches that got hammered the year after Pete Carroll left for the Seahawks?

That argument doesn't hold water.

Absolutely it has been discussed how the NCAA sanctions against USC punished the wrong folks. Pete Carroll's reputation has not been destroyed and he makes 5 million a year now. The AD lost his job, but did not go to jail.

So just because the NCAA was wrong on that occasion, doesn't mean they should be wrong again. That is also a weak argument.

 

[Ol Blue.sixpack]

in that community. It's not like it's Choctaw County. A few important people knew about Sandusky, and those few looked the other way while he victimized children. A few more may have had questions and suspicions. The average student/alum/fan found out about all this the same way we did.

A precedent has been set. The power of the NCAA has dramatically increased. And everybody applauds.

I agree with the OP. I think the fine and vacating the wins was more than appropriate and I - like you - applaud the NCAA for doing that.

But the precedent that this sets could end up being one of those times where you have to be careful what you ask for.

What keeps the NCAA fromimposing sanctions on programs whose players run afoul of the law? Something like a lost scholarship for ever 3 misdemeanors, a bowl ban for every 10 failed drug tests,or no TV if a student-athlete is involved in a shooting.

Probably not something too many people would be opposed to until it happened to their favorite program.

 

[RonnyAtmosphere]

..my opening statement was EXCEPT FOR THE MULTI-MILLION $ FINE, NONE OF THIS WAS UNPRECEDENTED.


I yelled it in all caps so your dumbass might see it this time.


And you are one to talk about bitching.

 

[patdog]

As for comparing the rest of the sanctions to Bama:

Bama - lost a total of 21 scholarships over 3 years
Penn St. - losing a total of 80 scholarships over 4 years

Bama - 2-year bowl ban
Penn St. - 4-year bowl ban

 

[dawgs.sixpack]

every major CFB program in the country has the same culture. it merely manifested itself in the worst way at penn st. ifthe NCAAwas serious about changing the culture to prevent something like this from happening in the future, they'd actually take collegiate wide measures to reign things in, not just hammer a sacrificial cow who screwed up the worst after the fact. maybe it deters a few coaches and admins from going too far in the short term,b ut let the memory fade and they'll be right back pushing the limits in the name of football. when the **** hits the fan, it might be as bad as a cover up of a serial child rapist, but the particulars ofoutcome isn't relevant when we discuss the overarching idea that CFB programs have become too powerful and the culture too accomodating of CFB success at any cost. either make wide ranging institutional changes to the way CFB works to prevent future actions by any university where CFB is put on apedestalorSTFU about changing the culture because retroactive punishment merelyinvites programs to continue to be placed in similar situations.