It takes loss of schollies, tv appearances and a bowl ban to to prevent other universities from trying something like this? All the jail time, financial penalties, and utter disgrace isn't enough?
I get the vacating wins and the 60 million. The rest is wrong.
- Thread starter Bulldog Bruce
- Start date
ironically imo, you are placing football on a pedestal by acting like a punishment to a football program is actually relevant to the prevention ofchild rape and criminal cover up.Bulldog Bruce said:
If they did that, it's not just PSU that suffers. Think of every media person affiliated with PSU, every person that works during gamedays(security, concessions, parking, ticket exchange not always involved with the university) loses their job. It doesn't just stop there either. Restaurants, hotels, shopping centers should all lose business just because they are located there? Also, everyschool that had them on their schedule has to find a smaller school to play against and they probably lose ticket sales because of this. This way, only the football program and athletic budget is hit. I personally wish they would drop the football program, but there is a ripple effect.
The jail time will be for criminal acts outside of the NCAA's influence. The NCAA punishment simply looks like their way to punish them for the crimes, and not for what that institution had become. A big steaming pile of corruption run by a football coach. All it looks like is punishment for a heinous crime. This does nothing to send a message that the NCAA is finally going to get it's **** together and punish universities that allow athletics to influence the rest of the institution. All this says is don't cover up a coach raping kids or you'll lose some money, scholarships, and games. Simple human morality should have taken care of that, but the culture of leadership at Penn State was so messed up that it allowed something that horrible to occur. That whole place needs thedoors and windowsshuttered.
Of course, the NCAA makes money off these programs, so why expect them to do what's right?
Of course, the NCAA makes money off these programs, so why expect them to do what's right?
And what you're saying is my point. That athletic program ran the place.The only way to stop what you just mentioned is to not let it get to that point, hoevere, we are WELL past that at just about every university in the country. The NCAA had a chance to burn the damn place and send a message that it isn't right, so the rest of you better get your **** together. They failed.</p>
For all of you that are railing on the culture of college football and blaming that as the cause are living in some imaginary world. All politicians live in that culture, all businesses live in that culture, all sports live in that culture, all governments live in that culture, all of human existence lives in that culture. It is, always has been, and always will be, about power, value, and immortality.
It is like the gun argument. Does the gun cause the killing or is the person using the gun cause the killing. Same with positions of power. Just because the position comes with fame and power, it is the person in that position that is responsible for how that power is used.
It is like the gun argument. Does the gun cause the killing or is the person using the gun cause the killing. Same with positions of power. Just because the position comes with fame and power, it is the person in that position that is responsible for how that power is used.
I bought stock in a bank. Later, the government beat the **** out of the company for things that were not my fault or the fault of other millions of people who invested in the company. The government also banned the company from paying dividends. Dividends which the company could afford to pay. That "punishment" affected the sum of investors more than anybody else.
Lots of fans and athletes invested in Penn State. Turned out to be a horrible investment. It happens. At least the affected athletes are given an option to go elsewhere.
Anybody want to trade me for my bank stock?
Lots of fans and athletes invested in Penn State. Turned out to be a horrible investment. It happens. At least the affected athletes are given an option to go elsewhere.
Anybody want to trade me for my bank stock?
covered up and allowed to continue the rape of little boys. They got off light. If they had turned the case over to the police when they first knew about it then the NCAA does nothing, and rightly so. The fact that they allowed it to continue by looking the other way is damning.
willi13 said:
I agree.
We are not talking about $100 hand shakes. We are talking about sadistic child crimes that were covered up by everyone in charge of the athletic administration.
I don't agree with the argument that other people will suffer because of this and that these types of sanctions should not have been handed down. Do we let lawbreakers go unpunished because it will affect their families who had nothing to do with the crime?
There has never been a case like this in college football and it deserved the sanctions handed down. Otherwise you are telling the rest of the athletic departments out there it's okay to cover up crimes of this magnitude, you will just get a bowl ban and a fine.
Close your eyes and visualize the shower stalls that the assistant coach heard the sodomy of a child happening back in 1998. Imagine what your thoughts would be. How horrific that would sound. Then visualize that child being raped as one of your own sons. Then tell me what PSU got was too strong.
Secondly, there is also a big difference between a student committing a crime compared to a highly paid employee of the university doing the same followed by the whole scandal being covered up by the administration. Using athletic facilities to lure children to a rapist then covering it up to save the program, let that sink in. Common sense has to be used at some point when dealing with these type issues. Will innocent fans suffer? Yes, just like every other school's fan base that has had to endure probation. Willinnocent players suffer also? Maybe, but they are more than welcome to leave Sodomy U and play ball wherever they please. If one of the victims happened to be your son, nephew, etc, would you be concerned that the punishment is too severe and that it will probablycause the PSU football team to be less competetive in the upcoming years? The kids that got raped are the real innocent victims, but people seem to be more concerned about the cultish fan base at PSU being punished unfairly. </p>
IBleedMaroonDawg said:
The penalties are WAY too light. Once again the damning thing is that the school knew about it and allowed it to continue for over 10 years. Let that sink in: They allowed little boys to be raped for over 10 years to protect their image. They should have been expelled from the NCAA for at least 5 years.
Penn St. isn't being punished because a coach broke the law. They're not being punished because a coach raped children. They're being punished because they knowingly covered it up when they found out about it and knowingly aided and abetted the coach in recruiting victims for at least 14 years. THAT'S what Penn St. is being punished for. Every school in the country has a drug policy and even the Mississippi Bears have kicked several players out of school for violating their relatively weak policy. Arkansas just fired their coach for breaking the law by circumventing the hiring process togive his mistress a job. Georgia and Auburn both just kicked their best RB out of school. That's internal control. You can't totally prevent a coach or player from breaking the rules or laws, but when you discover it, you take action. And that's what Penn St. didn't do.
Hector said:
you are totally misinterpreting my comments.
justice is served with sandusky in jail, schultz and curley soon to be on trial, and spanier still likely facing charges. joe pa's records have been removed from the record books due to the vacating of Ws from 1998 forward.
the ncaa has only managed to elevate the importance of football to act as if football is so important it must be punished too. they would have conveyed the message of changing the culture if they'd come out and said that the individuals are being punished for their crimes and that calling for the heads of the current penn st football program is misdirected anger and hatred. jsutice isn't served by punishing unrelated individuals whoshare nothing more than wearing the samename on thejerseys.
i'm all for punishing the guilty parties. they are responsible for their individual crimes and imo that's as far and punishment should extend. how's that logic for you?
you'd think a board full of mostly conservatives would really push for personal responsibility and not spreading the punishment around to unnecessary parties, but i guess i was wrong.
I would worry more about everyone involved being prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
That's why I haven't called for the death penalty. This case kind of has everything to do with PSU football and nothing to do with it at the same time. The criminals involved were looking out for the football program and their own reputations... butin terms ofthe NCAA and student athletes, they had zero involvement.
I'm fine with this punishment. It allows players who have put 3-4 years of hard work into this team to finish their degrees and time at PSU, but it also is a harsh punishment to the program & university that will have a lasting effect.
Not that I really would have been against the death penalty... I just don't see what good it does.</p>
That's why I haven't called for the death penalty. This case kind of has everything to do with PSU football and nothing to do with it at the same time. The criminals involved were looking out for the football program and their own reputations... butin terms ofthe NCAA and student athletes, they had zero involvement.
I'm fine with this punishment. It allows players who have put 3-4 years of hard work into this team to finish their degrees and time at PSU, but it also is a harsh punishment to the program & university that will have a lasting effect.
Not that I really would have been against the death penalty... I just don't see what good it does.</p>
can someone introduce me to penn st? i'd like the punch that guy in the face. he seems like a real ******* covering up for a pedophile and ****.
You just fire the people who committed the violations and you've punished them. No one is left who is guilty of anything. And the school gets a free pass. It just doesn't work that way. The school covered up what was happening and the school is being punished.
Or else they are dead.
Take emotion out of the decision. Sandusky's acts were repulsive, and the failure to act by the leaders of the University was unforgivable. These people will all be dealt with by the criminal justice system.
Punishing the football program in this manner is understandable, but it is NOT the place to satisfy everyone's blood lust over this issue.
That said, I think this will all work out for the best for PSU. The penalties are enacted, the BOT no longer has to make any hard decisions, and they can work on healing and rebuilding.
I think the NCAA has set a dangerous precedent, despite their efforts to claim this is an isolated exercise of power. I certainly hope we never again see such a heinous situation, but it won't be long before the NCAA is asked to exert its power over some other incident which does not strictly violate any standing NCAA rules.
Take emotion out of the decision. Sandusky's acts were repulsive, and the failure to act by the leaders of the University was unforgivable. These people will all be dealt with by the criminal justice system.
Punishing the football program in this manner is understandable, but it is NOT the place to satisfy everyone's blood lust over this issue.
That said, I think this will all work out for the best for PSU. The penalties are enacted, the BOT no longer has to make any hard decisions, and they can work on healing and rebuilding.
I think the NCAA has set a dangerous precedent, despite their efforts to claim this is an isolated exercise of power. I certainly hope we never again see such a heinous situation, but it won't be long before the NCAA is asked to exert its power over some other incident which does not strictly violate any standing NCAA rules.
dawgs said:
When leaders of an institution on multiple levels are guilty, that institution becomes guilty. The collateral damage is great, but the fact is if my boss, company executives, State, or Country make stupid decisions, I can suffer for it. Its not fair, but justice is bigger than fairness.
How so? The NCAA has punished schools for sins long past since its inception. It just so happens that in this instance they had access to a report by Louis Freeh that detailed the lack of institutional control necessary to run an athletics department under NCAA guidelines.Bulldog Bruce said:
The NCAA can't punish the people directly involved. Sandusky's in jail for life and Paterno's dead. However, they can punish Penn State so that the culture that allowed this to happen won't happen again. That is well within their operating guidelines.
It's not just this - there was evidence of Paterno exerting an undue influence over a lot of areas he shouldn't have been allowed to influence. I've heard stories of certain SEC coaches enjoying that type of power as well. I hope this is a wakeup call to those institutions that it's unacceptable.
patdog said:
no, normally withNCAA violations, the only deterrent is to vacate Ws and trophies/awards + future sanctions because ncaa rules are to govern programs and ensure no one has an on field advantage. it's the only deterrentat the NCAA's disposal. however in the penn st case, there are criminal statutes that are ensuring those responsible are going to jail. the jail time is the deterrent here, there's no need for the NCAA to tack on anything else outside of maybe vacating joe pa's Ws to get him off the record books. that's a pretty big distinction imo.
PSU's fanbase is akin to Bama's. They can double their ticket prices and they'd still sell out every game over the next two years. (And you've already surpassed the$60M mark right there!)
unless he really did want to completely deemphasize football. I think he could have agreed to a much larger fine (as in $60M up front and at least that much if not double that in future revenues) and smaller football penalties (something closer to what Alabama got for Means), and argued that more good would be done by committing a certain percentage of PSU football revenues to victims of child abuse going forward. He could have publicly argued that while a small subset of PSU officials had acted horrendously, those individuals are being appropriately punished, the rest of the PSU community is committed to making amends, and further football related penalties would only hinder their ability to do so. If he had forcefully thrown Paterno under the bus (although I'm not sure that's an appropriate term when somebody deserves it), that might have passed muster publicly. The NCAA might would have agreed to it, as it's not clear they really have the authority to do what they are doing, especially without any investigation (although it's almost impossible for PSU to argue against any severity of penalty).
The only reason to require punishment like this is to try to shake some sense into the people that don't see what the big deal is, think JoPa is a saint, that his statue should remain, etc. I guess there's also the deterrence effect, but surely this is such a rare situation that no deterrent effect is actually needed.
The only reason to require punishment like this is to try to shake some sense into the people that don't see what the big deal is, think JoPa is a saint, that his statue should remain, etc. I guess there's also the deterrence effect, but surely this is such a rare situation that no deterrent effect is actually needed.
So if the multi-million dollar fine is - in fact - unprecedented, who lied?RonnyAtmosphere said:
per usual, stewart largely nails it.
http://sportsillustrated....?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a0
Stewart Mandel>INSIDE COLLEGE FOOTBALL
NCAA's Mark Emmert overstepped bounds in hammering Penn State
Children were raped. Lives were destroyed. High-level administrators stood back and enabled the crimes. A once-revered coach betrayed his followers.
But the legacy of the Penn State scandal will no longer be Jerry Sandusky's heinous crimes or the courageous victims who stood up to him. Thanks to a brazen power play and a carefully orchestrated p.r. extravaganza, this human tragedy will take a backseat over the next four years (or longer) to a more trivial narrative: Whether Penn State football can recover from crippling NCAA sanctions.
To anyone who has ever contended that the Penn State story was about more than football, take a look at where we've arrived. In the 11 days since the Freeh Report condemned four university leaders for failing to protect the welfare of victimized children, the following corrective measures have occurred: the student section at Nittany Lions homes games was renamed; a statue was removed from Beaver Stadium; and now, the football program will be stripped of its parts, with players forced to find a new school if they ever want to sniff the postseason.
"No price the NCAA can levy will repair the grievous damage inflicted by Jerry Sandusky on his victims," newfound NCAA disciplinary czar Mark Emmert said Monday. "However, we can make clear that the culture, actions and inactions that allowed them to be victimized will not be tolerated in collegiate athletics."
And so, for the sins of Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Tim Curley, the NCAA dropped the hammer on Bill O'Brien, Matt McGloin, Silas Redd and 40 players who won't be able to receive scholarships from Penn State over the next four years (the NCAA stripped the school of 10 scholarships in each of the next four seasons). It assured that the Nittany Lions won't be a contender in the Big Ten for half of a decade -- if not longer -- and that their idol-worshipping fans will no longer cheer for a winner.
Justice has been served, assuming your idea of justice for rape victims is to deprive a school of its next four Outback Bowl invitations.
Emmert made plenty of meaningful and inarguable points in announcing these sanctions Monday. To wit, no one could dispute his message that: "If you find yourself in a place where the athletic culture is taking precedence over academic culture then a variety of bad things can occur."
But while Penn State may be the most extreme and horrific scandal we've seen in terms of its human tragedy and consequences, let's not be naïve. Athletics regularly trump academics at campuses across the country, and NCAA rules are regularly violated because of them. Never before has the NCAA's image-conscious president felt the need to personally intervene. But of course, none of those other scandals made NBC Nightly News for a week.
And so, Emmert made sure his organization responded accordingly -- even if that meant revoking the traditional due process afforded every other school that's ever been punished by the NCAA; invoking a nebulous, generalized bylaw about promoting integrity that could easily apply to hundreds of lawbreaking players, coaches and staffers across the country every year; and creating a precedent for dictatorial-like intervention that must now be considered every time a scandal of any proportion arises in college athletics.
"While there's been much speculation about whether this fits this specific bylaw or that specific bylaw," said Emmert, "it certainly hits the fundamental values of what athletics are supposed to be doing in the context of higher education."
No argument there. Perhaps this truly is a turning point in the history of the NCAA. Perhaps this is the beginning of a new era where Batman Emmert flies in and saves the day every time the forces of athletic evil make a mockery of academic virtues.
He better. Otherwise, this will instead prove to be a crowning moment in NCAA hypocrisy.
Remember when most college football fans assumed Auburn and/or Cam Newton would endure some sort of penalty when the quarterback's father openly solicited six figures from Mississippi State? The NCAA couldn't do anything, Emmert insisted, because there was no rule on the books addressing that specific scenario. We best not hear that excuse again.
Remember the 2003 murder of Baylor basketball player Patrick Dennehy by a former player, and head coach Dave Bliss' subsequent attempt to falsely portray Dennehy as a drug dealer to cover up for illegal tuition payments he'd made? Would Emmert (who was not yet with the NCAA at the time) step in if that indisputably heinous case arose today? If not, why? What's the threshold in determining whether something is special-jurisdiction-caliber repulsive or leave-it-to-the-enforcement-department-level disturbing?
And have you read about the ongoing academic fraud scandal at North Carolina? Since at least 1999, athletes have repeatedly been steered toward a specific professor's African and Afro-American Studies course that no one actually taught or attended. Last year's NCAA investigation only scratched the surface. Considering how highly the NCAA portends to value academics, shouldn't Emmert step in here, too?
"We don't see this opening a Pandora's box at all," said Emmert. "This was a very distinct and very unique set of circumstances."
That's easy to say now. Nothing in the history of NCAA scandals has come close to the level of allowing a serial pedophile free reign to a school's football facility, and basic faith in humanity make us inclined to believe that it will never happen again.
But there will undoubtedly be another high-profile college scandal, involving yet another unthinkable scenario, whether it's three months from now or three years from now. And the precedent has now been set. Will Emmert send that program back to the stone ages, too? Or was this a one-time-only, made-for-TV display of power?
Monday's one truly punitive action against one of the figures implicated in the Freeh Report was vacating Penn State's victories from 1998-2011, thus stripping Paterno of 111 wins and demoting him from the sport's alltime leader to 12th place. It seems fair and just, but here again, the NCAA seemingly rewrote its rulebook on the fly. Traditionally victories are vacated when schools are found to have used ineligible players. Nothing of the sort happened here.
But of course, that didn't fit Emmert's message.
"One of the grave dangers stemming from of our love of sports is the sports themselves can become too big to fail and too big to even challenge," he said. "The result can be an erosion of academic values that are replaced by hero worship and winning at all costs."
And so, by waving his magic wand and making Penn State football non-competitive for the next many years, he hopes that all athletic programs will take notice and ensure they don't fall into the same trap.
Here's betting a $3 billion television contract and a $600 million-a-year playoff that he won't deter a darn thing. Instead, Penn State will remain at the front of the news for many years to come, not for the criminal acts of a former assistant coach or its leaders' abhorrent inaction in handling him, but for its football players' inevitable on-field futility.
http://sportsillustrated....?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a0
Stewart Mandel>INSIDE COLLEGE FOOTBALL
NCAA's Mark Emmert overstepped bounds in hammering Penn State
Children were raped. Lives were destroyed. High-level administrators stood back and enabled the crimes. A once-revered coach betrayed his followers.
But the legacy of the Penn State scandal will no longer be Jerry Sandusky's heinous crimes or the courageous victims who stood up to him. Thanks to a brazen power play and a carefully orchestrated p.r. extravaganza, this human tragedy will take a backseat over the next four years (or longer) to a more trivial narrative: Whether Penn State football can recover from crippling NCAA sanctions.
To anyone who has ever contended that the Penn State story was about more than football, take a look at where we've arrived. In the 11 days since the Freeh Report condemned four university leaders for failing to protect the welfare of victimized children, the following corrective measures have occurred: the student section at Nittany Lions homes games was renamed; a statue was removed from Beaver Stadium; and now, the football program will be stripped of its parts, with players forced to find a new school if they ever want to sniff the postseason.
"No price the NCAA can levy will repair the grievous damage inflicted by Jerry Sandusky on his victims," newfound NCAA disciplinary czar Mark Emmert said Monday. "However, we can make clear that the culture, actions and inactions that allowed them to be victimized will not be tolerated in collegiate athletics."
And so, for the sins of Joe Paterno, Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz and Tim Curley, the NCAA dropped the hammer on Bill O'Brien, Matt McGloin, Silas Redd and 40 players who won't be able to receive scholarships from Penn State over the next four years (the NCAA stripped the school of 10 scholarships in each of the next four seasons). It assured that the Nittany Lions won't be a contender in the Big Ten for half of a decade -- if not longer -- and that their idol-worshipping fans will no longer cheer for a winner.
Justice has been served, assuming your idea of justice for rape victims is to deprive a school of its next four Outback Bowl invitations.
Emmert made plenty of meaningful and inarguable points in announcing these sanctions Monday. To wit, no one could dispute his message that: "If you find yourself in a place where the athletic culture is taking precedence over academic culture then a variety of bad things can occur."
But while Penn State may be the most extreme and horrific scandal we've seen in terms of its human tragedy and consequences, let's not be naïve. Athletics regularly trump academics at campuses across the country, and NCAA rules are regularly violated because of them. Never before has the NCAA's image-conscious president felt the need to personally intervene. But of course, none of those other scandals made NBC Nightly News for a week.
And so, Emmert made sure his organization responded accordingly -- even if that meant revoking the traditional due process afforded every other school that's ever been punished by the NCAA; invoking a nebulous, generalized bylaw about promoting integrity that could easily apply to hundreds of lawbreaking players, coaches and staffers across the country every year; and creating a precedent for dictatorial-like intervention that must now be considered every time a scandal of any proportion arises in college athletics.
"While there's been much speculation about whether this fits this specific bylaw or that specific bylaw," said Emmert, "it certainly hits the fundamental values of what athletics are supposed to be doing in the context of higher education."
No argument there. Perhaps this truly is a turning point in the history of the NCAA. Perhaps this is the beginning of a new era where Batman Emmert flies in and saves the day every time the forces of athletic evil make a mockery of academic virtues.
He better. Otherwise, this will instead prove to be a crowning moment in NCAA hypocrisy.
Remember when most college football fans assumed Auburn and/or Cam Newton would endure some sort of penalty when the quarterback's father openly solicited six figures from Mississippi State? The NCAA couldn't do anything, Emmert insisted, because there was no rule on the books addressing that specific scenario. We best not hear that excuse again.
Remember the 2003 murder of Baylor basketball player Patrick Dennehy by a former player, and head coach Dave Bliss' subsequent attempt to falsely portray Dennehy as a drug dealer to cover up for illegal tuition payments he'd made? Would Emmert (who was not yet with the NCAA at the time) step in if that indisputably heinous case arose today? If not, why? What's the threshold in determining whether something is special-jurisdiction-caliber repulsive or leave-it-to-the-enforcement-department-level disturbing?
And have you read about the ongoing academic fraud scandal at North Carolina? Since at least 1999, athletes have repeatedly been steered toward a specific professor's African and Afro-American Studies course that no one actually taught or attended. Last year's NCAA investigation only scratched the surface. Considering how highly the NCAA portends to value academics, shouldn't Emmert step in here, too?
"We don't see this opening a Pandora's box at all," said Emmert. "This was a very distinct and very unique set of circumstances."
That's easy to say now. Nothing in the history of NCAA scandals has come close to the level of allowing a serial pedophile free reign to a school's football facility, and basic faith in humanity make us inclined to believe that it will never happen again.
But there will undoubtedly be another high-profile college scandal, involving yet another unthinkable scenario, whether it's three months from now or three years from now. And the precedent has now been set. Will Emmert send that program back to the stone ages, too? Or was this a one-time-only, made-for-TV display of power?
Monday's one truly punitive action against one of the figures implicated in the Freeh Report was vacating Penn State's victories from 1998-2011, thus stripping Paterno of 111 wins and demoting him from the sport's alltime leader to 12th place. It seems fair and just, but here again, the NCAA seemingly rewrote its rulebook on the fly. Traditionally victories are vacated when schools are found to have used ineligible players. Nothing of the sort happened here.
But of course, that didn't fit Emmert's message.
"One of the grave dangers stemming from of our love of sports is the sports themselves can become too big to fail and too big to even challenge," he said. "The result can be an erosion of academic values that are replaced by hero worship and winning at all costs."
And so, by waving his magic wand and making Penn State football non-competitive for the next many years, he hopes that all athletic programs will take notice and ensure they don't fall into the same trap.
Here's betting a $3 billion television contract and a $600 million-a-year playoff that he won't deter a darn thing. Instead, Penn State will remain at the front of the news for many years to come, not for the criminal acts of a former assistant coach or its leaders' abhorrent inaction in handling him, but for its football players' inevitable on-field futility.
How can you justremove one of the penalties when commenting on the penalties?
Thats like sayinga 350 pound woman is sexy, except for the extra 200+ pounds she is carrying around.
Comparing the penalties to Bama isnt even a good point since they are about 3x worse.
Thats like sayinga 350 pound woman is sexy, except for the extra 200+ pounds she is carrying around.
Comparing the penalties to Bama isnt even a good point since they are about 3x worse.