You're right it's not guaranteed, however, I would bet a friendly wager that Duke sweeps UNC this season.
IC Thread states UNC will be better than Duke!
- Thread starter peterjurkinsquirtsroywilliams
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You're right it's not guaranteed, however, I would bet a friendly wager that Duke sweeps UNC this season.
Isnt it interesting JMM met for a "2nd time" with Williams after having a heart to heart with his parents???!!! Boy what a SALES JOB ol Roy put on JMM to stay in Chapel Hill...
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McAdoo made no big splash his freshman season. He would have been drafted early on potential alone.
McAdoo played well enough towards the end of his Freshman year to leave early. The kid was a top 5 pick and wasn't going to improve his draft stock by coming back to UNC one more year. Again, Roy has a niche of providing misleading information to these kids and feels comfortable with improving his legacy opposed to helping these kids become millionaires.
This was exactly my point...I erred by summarizing too briefly.Jurkin said it QUITE well!!!!
OFC
I can't support this. If you remove the player name and coach name it sounds all too similar to the nonsense over at THR. Objectively Roy hasn't put guys in the league quickly, that is a fact. What he is saying behind closed doors nobody knows and to suggest otherwise is exactly what THR is famous for doing.
I agree with part of your point...."nobody knows what Roy is saying behind closed doors." This is one reason he will be tainted in some respect for his role if any in the academic scandal..
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I get what your saying and I agree that no one knows what he is saying to these kids, I am basing this off of results. I can understand having a couple of OAD talents not jumping to the league. However, Roy has consistently underdeveloped and mislead several OAD players with their projected draft position. The last OAD Roy had was 10 years ago and I don't foresee that changing. Is this a pure coincidence? Example, Roy mislead Harrison Barnes and James McAdoo with their projected draft position.
McAdoo's freshman NCAA TOURNEY
Tournament: Made 18 of 32 from the floor (.563) in UNC’s four games • Had the second-highest field goal percentage on the team in the Tournament behind Kendall Marshall • Led Carolina in scoring with 15 points in 19 minutes against Kansas • Scored 10 first-half points against the Jayhawks, helping force a 47-all tie at the break • Had six points against Ohio, including a steal and slam dunk midway through the second half • Another active game against Creighton as he had nine points, four boards, three blocks and two steals • It was his first
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I dont quite get your point, you're kind of talking out of both ends here. First you say that you can see a couple OAD talents not jumping- Barnes and McAdoo are examples. Then you say that Roy had several OAD that he mislead- but literally the only two that were potential OAD are the two you mentioned- Barnes and JMM. You could MAYYYBEEE make a stretch for Justin Jackson, but that is at best a stretch.
Bottom line is OADs do not go to UNC b/c they are not featured as such. JMM only played 15mpg his freshman year. Granted that was a very good team. He only shot 43% from the floor, maybe that had a lot to do with him coming back and knowing he was going to be the "featured" guy . He should have left after his Soph regardless because his numbers dipped a touch in some categories his Jr. year and if you show that regression you're toast.
I could of used Henson, Ed Davis, Ty Lawson, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Hansbrough, Justin Jackson along with the previous two players I mentioned. Anyone who follows recruiting would know which elite recruits that didn't make the jump to the NBA after 1 year at UNC. I didn't feel the need to list every elite recruit that has stayed multiple years underneath Roy. My fingers didn't need the abuse! lol.
McAdoo was going to be a top five pick that year whether he played well in the tournament or didn't play at all.
Ed Davis is the only of that bunch who would have had a chance to be picked in the lottery after their freshman season. That's it. Lawson would have left after his sophomore season had it not been for getting a DUI just two months before the draft. Besides, all those guys you listed except Hansbrough did leave early.
If your head is in the sand, then I agree.
Here's the bottom line....UNC has failed to get OAD-types of kids. They've tried, but failed. In addition to that, there's a perception that Roy holds his kids back. Now, I think an argument can be made that maybe he does, but even still, you'd be arguing semantics. Nothing concrete.
But clearly, recruits and parents have taken notice. While I think Barnes probably bolts after his freshman season if not for the NBA lockout, he still didn't. The following year it was McAdoo, again perceived as a top 10 pick who stayed. That made it three out of four years - Davis, Barnes and McAdoo - that a player expected to be taken lottery (at worst) decided to go back to UNC. It certainly hurt the stock of Davis and obviously McAdoo, but I think the result with Barnes was pretty negligible. (Barnes was just clearly a good player...the others, not so much.)
While it is certainly true that Roy has whiffed on OADs and is not known for getting kids to the NBA early, I don't think it's fair to say he's deliberately mislead players or held them back. In fact I think that's false. It's the same line of reasoning when people say K holds back players, or now that he's attracting OADs, is 'selling his soul'.
Roy loves players who stay a few years. Even a decade ago, top talent was more likely to stay than make the jump after one year. But now, the priority has shifted towards getting to the league and securing a max contract ASAP. Some have adapted to that strategy of recruiting, but Roy hasn't. Therefore, talent he normally would have no trouble securing are going elsewhere. The NCAA scandal certainly didn't help either.
Edit: And to add to what jay said above, the Barnes and JMM situations have added to the perception that Roy holds players back rather than getting them to the NBA.
Roy's system thrives when he gets 5 stars along with solid role players to stay for 2+ years. But he's even admitted it hasn't been working for the past 4-5 years. And that's why I'm one of the few over on TI that's seriously concerned about the future. He's digging further into the talent pool than ever before.
Roy loves players who stay a few years. Even a decade ago, top talent was more likely to stay than make the jump after one year. But now, the priority has shifted towards getting to the league and securing a max contract ASAP. Some have adapted to that strategy of recruiting, but Roy hasn't. Therefore, talent he normally would have no trouble securing are going elsewhere. The NCAA scandal certainly didn't help either.
Edit: And to add to what jay said above, the Barnes and JMM situations have added to the perception that Roy holds players back rather than getting them to the NBA.
Roy's system thrives when he gets 5 stars along with solid role players to stay for 2+ years. But he's even admitted it hasn't been working for the past 4-5 years. And that's why I'm one of the few over on TI that's seriously concerned about the future. He's digging further into the talent pool than ever before.
I am speaking in terms of players being OAD. I acknowledge the fact most of the listed players left after 3 or 4 years at unc. That's the point I'm making in regards to Roy not having success with the "OAD" players. I'm simply stating that Roy has stunk it up with getting these kids to the NBA after 1 season of college basketball. I'm not saying Roy doesn't care for his players, becauss he does. I'm mean will graves was staying in one of his properties! Obviously, Roy loves his players. However, I think it's fair to question his resources when providing Information about leaving early for the NBA.
Dukiejay,
Have you read some of Roy's players comments in regards to staying longer at UNC? I believe I have a valid argument.
You're trying to make a point that doesn't really apply here, though. None of those players you listed were ever really considered as possible one-and-done's, with the exception of maybe Davis. That would be like blaming K for Singler and N. Smith sticking around. It makes no sense.
And really, with every one-and-done kid Duke has had, except Tyus and maybe Justise (to an extent), all expected to be OAD. What I mean by that is it wasn't a surprise. For Tyus and Justise it was just the opportunity to strike while the iron is hot. Now, if you make the argument that Roy has had some players who haven't struck when the iron is hot....well, that I can get behind a little more. I don't really buy that he's holding them back or doing it for his own selfish good....that would make me too much like a paranoid THR poster.
Like I said, you're arguing semantics. You're taking comments and maybe twisting them to fit a certain narrative. That's fine....you can do that. But then you shouldn't get mad when THR posters do the same thing to K.
I respectfully disagree DJ. Most top 10 players fit into the OAD category. (Nolan wasn't a top 10 recruit). Also, how can you dismiss what his players have stated about staying at UNC for an extra year? Lawson has been on record with this, same with others. Is Roy purposely holding these kids back? Maybe, maybe not . At the end of the day, the players have the say so and will make the decision based off the information provided by people they trust. IMO, Roy has been misleading with his information in regards to draft status and probably had some persuasion to these kids decisions. Roy has a rep of being very aggressive and pressuring kids to make decisions (remember what Delvon Roe's dad stated about Roy?). Also, you have to ask yourself, did Roy know about the cheating situation that transpired for over 20 years. Let's not pretend Roy is a saint.
Is any college basketball coach in the country a saint?
Where is Lawson on record saying this? And the others you speak of. You are correct in that Roy gets his players to stay longer, especially his star players. But I disagree with your notion that he pressures them or deliberately misleads them. It's easy to state this in the OAD era, but a decade ago if you had a once in a lifetime player, of course you wanted them to stay. It's only been recently that getting OADs and getting them to the draft as quickly as possible has been employed as a recruiting strategy.
There really wasn't a "OAD" era 10 years ago. In fact, how many top 10 kids has Roy even signed in the last decade? Maybe three or four? Five tops?
Like I said, Lawson was gone after his sophomore year until he got in trouble with the DUI after the season. It worked out ok for him....he won a national championship and was drafted 18th overall.
You'd be better off creating the argument that Roy hasn't advanced his players over saying he's misled them. Again, that's THR logic.
The real argument is that he just flat out doesn't get OAD kids. He's gotten two arguably during the OAD era- Barnes/JMM.
Perhaps, but safe to say he's certainly been tremendously successful into holding onto kids until their 2-4 yrs, per Lawson, Ellington, Henson, Hansbrough, etc....I can understand the point PJ is trying to make.
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Hansbrough, Ellington were never ever going anywhere, ever. The Lawson thing was already explained and for Henson, i know he was a top 10 kid, but i do not remember him being considered OAD ever. I could be wrong on that, but as thin as he was and the position he played he was extremely unskilled and raw coming out.
Yet still, and this really goes back to Jurkin's point, Roy is aware of the perception-
Williams hears it: “Oh, you go to North Carolina, Roy puts his handcuffs on you and stuff like that,” he said. Williams said “there is a myth” out there about his recruiting preferences, about his philosophy.
10/28/15, N&O
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Absolutely. Perception killls. Much like for us all those years where people said Duke didn't develop big men. We were in the running for a lot of big time big guys and missed out, many believe the perception played into that.
Now i'm not complaining. But in this feed me now, show me now, world we live in, you have to point to who has gone OAD at UNC? You can't show anyone...not b/c they can't do it necessarily, but b/c they can't even get them to commit and start the trend. This to me is why the most important recruit we've gotten in the last ten years or so was Kyrie Irving.
I see what you are saying in the OAD matter,and you are so VERY SPOT ON about our own "perception" about landing the big man for years.(Did alright w/Zoobs didnt we,
my friend)...However it extends from OAD's in my mind to others merely by the fact its so embedded in Roy's mind per the "handcuffs" comment...Certainly regardless where we are on which side of the argument it makes for interesting back and forth...GOOD point btw, about Kyrie....
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I do agree with you all that kyrie has done wonders for duke in landing top prospects. However, other than that, dukes NBA pedigree isn't that much better than ours.
Okafor and Ingram have potential, Parker is injury prone, and I haven't heard much from Jones or Winslow.
But the key here is that duke got those kids to the NBA after one year and in today's world that's huge. Carolina has kids in the NBA but no star power, and that certainly hurts Roy's ability to recruit top 15 kids.
Okafor and Ingram have potential, Parker is injury prone, and I haven't heard much from Jones or Winslow.
But the key here is that duke got those kids to the NBA after one year and in today's world that's huge. Carolina has kids in the NBA but no star power, and that certainly hurts Roy's ability to recruit top 15 kids.
It's not JUST Kyrie. Certainly you know this. And as far as "pedigree" goes , yeah , both schools are comparable. The difference is that unless Roy turns things around , unx's NBA output is a product of the past not the present and future. The last NBA All-Stars from unx? Vince Carter and Antawn Jamison. They both left school in 1998...almost TWENTY years ago!
Tyus probably came out too early but Jabari's a beast NOW despite injuries. Haven't heard much from Winslow?!?!?! Seriously?!?! Terriffic player. Ingram had a nice game just last night and he's still a baby. Oakofor had some injuries and maturity issues but he averaged 17 & 7 his rookie season. And that doesn't include the others. Something else. Ya could make the argument that great kids usually become great pros regardless of school attended. Fair enough. But look at Duke. Kids with little to no NBA prospects not only make the league but stick around and thrive. All 3 Plumlees are in the league. Josh McRoberts . Lance freakin' Thomas! Shav Randolph. Not only does Duke's projected NBA stars ball out but the lesser lights carve out careers too. Dude. Ya just don't wanna admit it. Duke , as much or more than ANY school , is putting out an outstanding NBA product.
[QUOTE="carolinablue34, post: 11136217, member: 22878"]But the key here is that duke got those kids to the NBA after one year and in today's world that's huge. Carolina has kids in the NBA but no star power, and that certainly hurts Roy's ability to recruit top 15 kids.[/QUOTE]
And that lack of "star power" derives from the fact that , lately , he has missed out on the cream of the crop...those he used to load up on. The way to get those kids is to demonstrate an ability to adapt. Roy's latest comments suggest he may be doing just that. He's been a little slow doing that but missing out on these kids has probably shown 'im the light.
And that lack of "star power" derives from the fact that , lately , he has missed out on the cream of the crop...those he used to load up on. The way to get those kids is to demonstrate an ability to adapt. Roy's latest comments suggest he may be doing just that. He's been a little slow doing that but missing out on these kids has probably shown 'im the light.[/QUOTE]
You're correct in that we have a lack of recent star power in the NBA, but I do believe you are overstating yours. How many all stars have you had since Kyrie? Randolph is out of the league, Thomas and McRoberts have never averaged more than 9 a game, and please do not use the Plumlee brothers as an example of overachieving NBA success. Ingram has technically never played a game, and we haven't seen enough of Okafor or Winslow to call either of them a success. Up until recently, aside from Kyrie, Carolina and Duke were pretty even. If we're going by NBA star power, it's Kentucky. We both have to admit that. Lol, do you really expect me to concede that Duke is the epitome of league success? I think not.
That being said, Roy has missed out on the best, as you said "those he used to load up on." We are in complete agreement that he needs to adapt and it's been something I've been saying over in my neck of the woods, albeit with much disgruntlement from some of the THR crowd. But I don't give a ****. I want to compete and beat our rivals and I could give less of a crap about Roy's "ethics". No one hopes more than I do that Roy starts going the extra mile to draw in OADs and I think that he is, and will.
[QUOTE="carolinablue34,[/QUOTE]
You're correct in that we have a lack of recent star power in the NBA, but I do believe you are overstating yours. How many all stars have you had since Kyrie? Randolph is out of the league, Thomas and McRoberts have never averaged more than 9 a game, and please do not use the Plumlee brothers as an example of overachieving NBA success. Ingram has technically never played a game, and we haven't seen enough of Okafor or Winslow to call either of them a success. Up until recently, aside from Kyrie, Carolina and Duke were pretty even. If we're going by NBA star power, it's Kentucky. We both have to admit that. Lol, do you really expect me to concede that Duke is the epitome of league success? I think not.
. But I don't give a ****. I want to compete and beat our rivals and I could give less of a crap about Roy's "ethics".[/QUOTE]
CB I have great respect for your insights and you seem to just call it as you see it...However naturally seeing the world thru Duke Blue filters for 60 years I tend to look at things a bit differently.Agreed, Kyrie is the one to truly give the boys from Durham separation at this point.
However, per some of the others I think their conributions cant be overlooked. For instance, during his time in Charlotte, the great Josh McRoberts was commonly referred to as "The Connector" by owner MJ, and quite honestly I think the bumblebees missed his presence last year. Miles and Mase Plum are carving out successful careers in the League, and w/Mason's addition its something Blue Devil coaches can employ as a great recruiting tool. Okafor's numbers are only going to get better, Winslow has a great upside, and Tyus is on the verge of cracking a roster-Quinn Cook also....Certainly w/the talent K continues to bring in it will not only elevate Duke's presence in the pros, but continue to be a boost to them in recruiting as well....Lets not forget Ryan Kelly, Rodney Hood and I think Jabari is due for some good luck on the injury front and has a chance at a very productive career... Redick could legitimately be called a star at the next level....
Quite honestly I felt Paige would fare better in the league (and he still may because of his tireless work ethic), but jury's out after his early cut.Certainly Berry, Jackson, Hicks, Meeks could ALL pan out- its a wait and see, but I would say at LEAST two of those Four could be solid pros...Brice Johnson certainly is in a position to elevate UNC's position in the pros. I must say the biggest surprise to me is watching Hansbrough languish on the pine predominantly after such a dominant career...
OFC
You're correct in that we have a lack of recent star power in the NBA, but I do believe you are overstating yours. How many all stars have you had since Kyrie? Randolph is out of the league, Thomas and McRoberts have never averaged more than 9 a game, and please do not use the Plumlee brothers as an example of overachieving NBA success. Ingram has technically never played a game, and we haven't seen enough of Okafor or Winslow to call either of them a success. Up until recently, aside from Kyrie, Carolina and Duke were pretty even. If we're going by NBA star power, it's Kentucky. We both have to admit that. Lol, do you really expect me to concede that Duke is the epitome of league success? I think not.
. But I don't give a ****. I want to compete and beat our rivals and I could give less of a crap about Roy's "ethics".[/QUOTE]
CB I have great respect for your insights and you seem to just call it as you see it...However naturally seeing the world thru Duke Blue filters for 60 years I tend to look at things a bit differently.Agreed, Kyrie is the one to truly give the boys from Durham separation at this point.
However, per some of the others I think their conributions cant be overlooked. For instance, during his time in Charlotte, the great Josh McRoberts was commonly referred to as "The Connector" by owner MJ, and quite honestly I think the bumblebees missed his presence last year. Miles and Mase Plum are carving out successful careers in the League, and w/Mason's addition its something Blue Devil coaches can employ as a great recruiting tool. Okafor's numbers are only going to get better, Winslow has a great upside, and Tyus is on the verge of cracking a roster-Quinn Cook also....Certainly w/the talent K continues to bring in it will not only elevate Duke's presence in the pros, but continue to be a boost to them in recruiting as well....Lets not forget Ryan Kelly, Rodney Hood and I think Jabari is due for some good luck on the injury front and has a chance at a very productive career... Redick could legitimately be called a star at the next level....
Quite honestly I felt Paige would fare better in the league (and he still may because of his tireless work ethic), but jury's out after his early cut.Certainly Berry, Jackson, Hicks, Meeks could ALL pan out- its a wait and see, but I would say at LEAST two of those Four could be solid pros...Brice Johnson certainly is in a position to elevate UNC's position in the pros. I must say the biggest surprise to me is watching Hansbrough languish on the pine predominantly after such a dominant career...
OFC
You listed 5 Duke OAD guys. Of which, Parker is the only multi year player in the NBA. One guy has yet to play a regular season game in the NBA. Your point would be better if any of those guys were over the age of 22.
Mason Plumlee was a starter on a Portland team that made it to the second round of the playoffs last year. In the west. He will be a starter again this year. Also a major contributor.
Jabari came off an ACL injury last year and in the second half of the year, averaged around 18 or so a game. Look for him to have a big year.
He is the one OAD guy that I woulod have liked to be at Duke longer. He had to go in to the draft, I fully support that decision, but imagine the 2015 tear with him on it? Imagine the 2016 team with him on itt? Or this year? Granted a couple of the recruits that came in might not have come to Duke, but if they did and he was still around?
I watched most of Jabari's games last season, and he looks like a guy that will be a force to be dealt with. Him and Giannis look like a great foundation for the Bucks going forward.
You're correct in that we have a lack of recent star power in the NBA, but I do believe you are overstating yours. How many all stars have you had since Kyrie? Randolph is out of the league, Thomas and McRoberts have never averaged more than 9 a game, and please do not use the Plumlee brothers as an example of overachieving NBA success. Ingram has technically never played a game, and we haven't seen enough of Okafor or Winslow to call either of them a success. Up until recently, aside from Kyrie, Carolina and Duke were pretty even. If we're going by NBA star power, it's Kentucky. We both have to admit that. Lol, do you really expect me to concede that Duke is the epitome of league success? I think not.
That being said, Roy has missed out on the best, as you said "those he used to load up on." We are in complete agreement that he needs to adapt and it's been something I've been saying over in my neck of the woods, albeit with much disgruntlement from some of the THR crowd. But I don't give a ****. I want to compete and beat our rivals and I could give less of a crap about Roy's "ethics". No one hopes more than I do that Roy starts going the extra mile to draw in OADs and I think that he is, and will.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure one injury makes a guy injury-prone. Could Jabari become injury-prone? I suppose. But right now he's clearly not earned that reputation.
And while you don't want to give any credit to Mason Plumlee, how many players from Carolina are doing better than him? Not many. He's hardly a star, but he was also just the 22nd pick in the draft and last year averaged 9 & 8. Not eye-popping, but I'd say thus far Mason has met or exceeded expectations.
To your last point....Roy has chased many OAD's. He just hasn't landed them. This theory that he won't "sell-out" is completely false. Right now it's just that few OAD prospects are interested in playing for him, while he's clearly interested in them. As a Duke fan it's fun to watch, but I also live in reality in know that eventually UNC/Roy will turn it around.
Is there a Carolina guy over here telling us our NBA players aren't all that? Seriously? UNC and Duke pros are even? Ummmmm. Cocaine is a hell of a drug.