If Collins leaves after this year..
- Thread starter 57stratdawg
- Start date
No...
He's going to have to rehab his career before he gets to come back to the big leagues IMO. Given what we know in hindsight about the amount of NFL talent he inherited on that side, his defense honestly underperformed a little in my opinion... How many got at least a cup of coffee in the NFL? 8 starters?
We will be chasing a whole new league of coach with what we showed we were willing to pay Collins IMO. And that was before the big money showed up...
He's going to have to rehab his career before he gets to come back to the big leagues IMO. Given what we know in hindsight about the amount of NFL talent he inherited on that side, his defense honestly underperformed a little in my opinion... How many got at least a cup of coffee in the NFL? 8 starters?
We will be chasing a whole new league of coach with what we showed we were willing to pay Collins IMO. And that was before the big money showed up...
Say what you want about the talent level when Diaz was here...
it wasn't like he didn't do well with it. We have equal or better talent here now.
it wasn't like he didn't do well with it. We have equal or better talent here now.
Diaz never really proved anything to me, even while he was here. I was never convinced that his mid-major-developed scheme wasn't successful only because no one at the top level had really seen it yet and he had at least one future NFL player at every level of the defense. He sure didn't go on to prove that it's sustainable over time at Texas.
Yeah, I don't see how our D having talent is a knock on Diaz. All you can ask a guy to do is be successful, right?
in b4 something about shamoan.
to be fair(not that any of you have showed an interest in being fair whatsoever), i would ask the jury to recall the fact that I criticized his lack of aggression and lack of defensive pressure while the team was ranked in the 80's and 90's of the 120+ teams. soon, those criticisms turned to neutrality then to praise (see bama game), as the defense improved and i became a collins supporter, but i did not do so blindly.
to answer the question (not that anyone cares about the opinion of a raving lunatic), diaz is just as good as collins in my opinion, and i hold diaz in high regard. i think for us to be successful as a defense, we need to be more aggressive than most. im sure you all think i am an idiot, and that will be the cross i bare, but at the time of my criticism, i dont think any of us would be happy with being the 80th or 90th best team defensively. whatevs...say what you will...i can take it...and at times, might enjoy it a little.
to be fair(not that any of you have showed an interest in being fair whatsoever), i would ask the jury to recall the fact that I criticized his lack of aggression and lack of defensive pressure while the team was ranked in the 80's and 90's of the 120+ teams. soon, those criticisms turned to neutrality then to praise (see bama game), as the defense improved and i became a collins supporter, but i did not do so blindly.
to answer the question (not that anyone cares about the opinion of a raving lunatic), diaz is just as good as collins in my opinion, and i hold diaz in high regard. i think for us to be successful as a defense, we need to be more aggressive than most. im sure you all think i am an idiot, and that will be the cross i bare, but at the time of my criticism, i dont think any of us would be happy with being the 80th or 90th best team defensively. whatevs...say what you will...i can take it...and at times, might enjoy it a little.
Disagree (what a surprise)
1. I can't recall the level of pressure ever changing. The neutrality (or wait-n-see approach) started in the Gator bowl until the OKST game. Collins did enough to throw OKST off their game in that they had to hit him with something the D had never seen before. He pretty much held Auburn in check at their place. The wheel feel off the wagon in the 4th qtr against LSU the (NFL) receivers for LSU were just too good. You finally saw in Bama what the majority of posters saw in Week 1.
2. Diaz is not as good as Collins. Collins has turned around defenses everywhere he's been. Collins can work with undeveloped talent. Diaz claims he can't. Collins runs smart schemes that keep the O off balance. Being aggressive all game is nice when you have an offense that can save your rear.
Despite the "terrble" job that Collins did up to the Bama game,** Collins finished in the Top 30 in total defense while Diaz barely made Top 40. Diaz finished 18th in scoring D (20.8) while Collins finished 32 (24.8). Giving up 59 to LSU hurt. But the last 4 games the team gave up 20 - 17 - 10 - 7. Notice a trend. Top 5 in yards and points allowed despite having 2 OT games over the last 4.
So, was Collins not good enough for you until he had a Top 10 defense?
1. I can't recall the level of pressure ever changing. The neutrality (or wait-n-see approach) started in the Gator bowl until the OKST game. Collins did enough to throw OKST off their game in that they had to hit him with something the D had never seen before. He pretty much held Auburn in check at their place. The wheel feel off the wagon in the 4th qtr against LSU the (NFL) receivers for LSU were just too good. You finally saw in Bama what the majority of posters saw in Week 1.
2. Diaz is not as good as Collins. Collins has turned around defenses everywhere he's been. Collins can work with undeveloped talent. Diaz claims he can't. Collins runs smart schemes that keep the O off balance. Being aggressive all game is nice when you have an offense that can save your rear.
Despite the "terrble" job that Collins did up to the Bama game,** Collins finished in the Top 30 in total defense while Diaz barely made Top 40. Diaz finished 18th in scoring D (20.8) while Collins finished 32 (24.8). Giving up 59 to LSU hurt. But the last 4 games the team gave up 20 - 17 - 10 - 7. Notice a trend. Top 5 in yards and points allowed despite having 2 OT games over the last 4.
So, was Collins not good enough for you until he had a Top 10 defense?
D having talent is not a knock -- underachieving relative to that talent level is the knock. 5 of that front 7 were NFL-drafted talents. Being a top 30 defense with that talent level is underachieving in my mind. Diaz gambled constantly, with enough talent up front to make it unnecessary. It doesn't make sense(knowing in hindsight just how good all those players were).
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Good point. Deshea cited Mullen's track record of promoting assistants as one of the main factors of why he came to MSU. Regardless of what happens to Collins this year, would be nice to give him a new title this next off season.
Will say ... If we could only couple ...
this JLD intensity together with Collins technique ... we could have a REALLY special Defense this year. Watch these couple of plays from the '96 Egg Bowl at Oxford.
State scores 17 points ... pick 6 ... safety ... defense fumble recovery for a td.
this JLD intensity together with Collins technique ... we could have a REALLY special Defense this year. Watch these couple of plays from the '96 Egg Bowl at Oxford.
State scores 17 points ... pick 6 ... safety ... defense fumble recovery for a td.
I think Diaz was very fortunate. The amount of points we gave up was well below what one might expect based upon the number of yards we conceded.
I don't think I've ever seen a better coached defense than the one we had in the '98 SEC Championship game. Joe Lee had the TN offense totally confused most of the game. If we had quality DB's that could play one on one, Joe Lee might be a pretty good choice.
Underachieving? We were 3rd in points allowed in the SEC that year behind Bama and LSU. That's pretty good in my book. Especially considering that D went up against Cam/Malzahn, Mallet/Petrino, Houston/Sumlin, MarkIngram/Alabama, Shoelaces/RichRod.
If that's underachieving, we have to hold Collins to the same standard. Considering the 2014 D is just as talent (if not more) and unquestionably has more depth on it. Apparently, anything less than 3rd overall in total D in the SEC this year is unacceptable from Collins. I'll make sure to remind you of that throughout the year.
Deshea has no business being promoted. Collins don't need any more than a cost of living raise. Let him go if he wants to go. We only need players, I mean coaches, who want to be here. Diaz, not true maroon.
Only if he has left that bend, don't break mess at Texas. Hopefully he has learned from his experiences.
Exactly.
Diaz gave up a ton of huge plays gambling at times he didn't have nor need to gamble....
Points allowed isn't the only measure of a defense. And if it is the metric we're using here, it still was worse than Chris Wilson in year 1 -- and Wilson had 3 fewer future NFL draft picks on his first defense.
Why would we hold Collins to a standard 5 spots better than Diaz gave us? As has already been said -- the scoring aspect was an outlier on Diaz's defense here. It was far from the chalk of his overall performance when you look at other metrics.
8th in total defense with 5 drafted future NFL'ers in the front 7.
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So, you're entire stance is that yardage is better judge of a defense than points. Without say, I disagree with that.
At the end of the game, does the scoreboard show yards or points?
At the end of the game, does the scoreboard show yards or points?
What did I say that would remotely give you that interpretation? I didn't say -- nor imply this. I said exactly what I meant -- there is more to judging an overall defense than points allowed. I didn't assign importance to individual factors. Diaz's defense wasn't as good as many of you apparently remember it, which can be easily referenced by you assigning a false value to it(calling it top 3 total D when it was actually 8th) which I simply corrected...
And, yes, if Collins' defense this year isn't better than Diaz's was in most metrics, I will be disappointed. It won't get the sacks or TFL, but I expect it to be one of the 5 best 3-and-out defenses in the country this year -- and I don't expect it to give up nearly the huge plays that Diaz did.
Our defense was better than Diaz's last year in many ways -- points given up to LSU and aTm notwithstanding. Diaz' overall levels are my expectations of our defense. Anything less than that is disappointing.
I've never witnessed someone's veins pop as far out of their head as Diaz's. If you're going to hire Diaz, you better be all-in on that approach.
I know exactly why Texas players never produced under him... guys who have been told how great they are since middle school don't do boot camp type coaching.
If we were where we were in 2008 I'd love to have Diaz even knowing what I know about his tenure at Texas. But we've recruited better on D than a lot of national powers lately, and trying to juice an athletic, untalented player for everything they're worth isn't something we have to do anymore.
"What did I say to give you that interpretation?"
I called it a top D in the SEC based on scoring, and then you posted a picture ranking the 2010 SEC defenses based on yardage. Your saying that it wasn't as good, because it gave up yardage, right? I agree points are EVERYTHING, but that D was also:
- 4th in the SEC that year in turnover margin
- 3rd in total turnovers won
- 4th in tackles for loss
- 3rd in opponents 3rd down conversion rate
- 3rd in overall redzone scoring
- 2nd in TDs allowed in the redzone
That's a winning D, brother.
"Last year was better in many ways points given up to LSU and A&M notwithstanding"
Yeah, but we got shredded in those games. We can't just overlook the games that don't support our argument. Remember when you use to accuse me of "eliminating perfectly good data from a sample population"? What happen to that?
"I don't expect it give up nearly the huge plays that Diaz did"
Plays 40+ yards - we were 2nd out of 12
Plays 20+ yards - we were 4th out of 12
Plays 30+ yards - we were 5th out of 12
Diaz's defense is the best D we've had under Mullen, and they're probably the best D MSU has fielded in the 15 years. Maybe this year's team will top it. It has a chance to, statistically, anyway. It certainly seems to have a MUCH more favorable schedule to go against. This year's D has much more depth and talent. As I have shown, it'll need to be in the top 3 or 4 in points, turnovers, 3 and outs, and redzone defense to our perform the 2010 squad.
That's an incredibly high bar to set.
I called it a top D in the SEC based on scoring, and then you posted a picture ranking the 2010 SEC defenses based on yardage. Your saying that it wasn't as good, because it gave up yardage, right? I agree points are EVERYTHING, but that D was also:
- 4th in the SEC that year in turnover margin
- 3rd in total turnovers won
- 4th in tackles for loss
- 3rd in opponents 3rd down conversion rate
- 3rd in overall redzone scoring
- 2nd in TDs allowed in the redzone
That's a winning D, brother.
"Last year was better in many ways points given up to LSU and A&M notwithstanding"
Yeah, but we got shredded in those games. We can't just overlook the games that don't support our argument. Remember when you use to accuse me of "eliminating perfectly good data from a sample population"? What happen to that?
"I don't expect it give up nearly the huge plays that Diaz did"
Plays 40+ yards - we were 2nd out of 12
Plays 20+ yards - we were 4th out of 12
Plays 30+ yards - we were 5th out of 12
Diaz's defense is the best D we've had under Mullen, and they're probably the best D MSU has fielded in the 15 years. Maybe this year's team will top it. It has a chance to, statistically, anyway. It certainly seems to have a MUCH more favorable schedule to go against. This year's D has much more depth and talent. As I have shown, it'll need to be in the top 3 or 4 in points, turnovers, 3 and outs, and redzone defense to our perform the 2010 squad.
That's an incredibly high bar to set.
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Go back and read what I quoted. YOU talked about TOTAL D in the quote -- I simply corrected what you said. That's your disconnect, I guess. I wouldn't have brought it up had you not done that first with bad data.
You can go into all this you want -- but you just said scoring D is all that matters -- and Chris Wilson was better in year 1 with 3 fewer NFL starters. How do you spin that? Diaz's defense was good relative to an SEC that saw it's best teams as offensive juggernauts(Auburn, Arkansas) with Bama and LSU down somewhat that year. If you run these numbers nationally, Diaz doesn't look nearly as good as you are trying to paint him.
I didn't "overlook" them. I still think Collins' defense was better. We didn't play Johnny Manziel in 2010 -- nor was LSU's offense the powerhouse that we saw in Starkville that given night.
Plays of 70+ - 84th
Plays of 60+ - 69th
Plays of 50+ - 55th
Plays of 40+ - 38th
Plays of 30+ - 43rd
Plays of 20+ - 38th
Plays of 10+ - 100th
Conveniently left off the 10+ number where we were dead last, huh?
By your own set of statistical importance, it was not. In the same number of games, Wilson gave up less points.
It's funny that you only assign importance to the defensive statistics that the 2010 team did well...
2010 was not even the best defense we've had overall under Mullen. It's a perfect storm of coming off a bad defensive year and having an offense that propped it up at times when we won a couple of "surprise" games, leading to a memorable year, in which everyone looks at it as something better than it was...
I don't consider 10 yard plays "HUGE" plays. Here's a comparison between 40+ yard plays given up by Diaz and Collins:
The difference between those two is making one open field tackle against Alcorn's Canadian QB. I can't, and you shouldn't either, judge an entire season on one guy missing an open field tackle.
Diaz gave up 19.8 ppg, Wilson gave up 19.7 in his first year. They're identical. But the 2011 schedule softened up for Wilson.
- Cam Newton is replaced with Barrett Trotter
- Kevin Sumlin isn't on the schedule
- OM had totally quit by the Egg Bowl (we only give up 3 points) compared to them at home in 2010
- Wake Forrest instead of Michigan in a bowl game
It should be the same thing as this year. JFF is gone, Mettenberger is gone, McCarron is gone, we'll get a completed dead Vandy program (offensively), and 4 cupcakes OOC. Collins should out perform Diaz's team by quite a margin. We'll just have to watch and see.
| Collins | Diaz | |
| 70+ | 2 | 3 |
| 60+ | 3 | 4 |
| 50+ | 10 | 10 |
| 40+ | 10 | 10 |
The difference between those two is making one open field tackle against Alcorn's Canadian QB. I can't, and you shouldn't either, judge an entire season on one guy missing an open field tackle.
Diaz gave up 19.8 ppg, Wilson gave up 19.7 in his first year. They're identical. But the 2011 schedule softened up for Wilson.
- Cam Newton is replaced with Barrett Trotter
- Kevin Sumlin isn't on the schedule
- OM had totally quit by the Egg Bowl (we only give up 3 points) compared to them at home in 2010
- Wake Forrest instead of Michigan in a bowl game
It should be the same thing as this year. JFF is gone, Mettenberger is gone, McCarron is gone, we'll get a completed dead Vandy program (offensively), and 4 cupcakes OOC. Collins should out perform Diaz's team by quite a margin. We'll just have to watch and see.
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If Collins' defense this year isn't better than Diaz's defense in the majority of major statistical categories this year, I will consider it a disappointment. Diaz's d was overall a top 30 D. I expect Collins to be top 15 overall this year and will be disappointed with less. The deck is stacked in his favor, and he even has depth on his side. Only position I'm worried about is FS...
Fair enough. I hope you're right. I think if we're top 15 nationally, we'll be in contention for the West when the leaves start to turn. Especially if we can split Auburn and LSU.
The problem is finding out why they gave up so many yards with so many other positive categories. It wasn't T.O.P. because the O shortened the game. Teams ran a lot of plays against the 2010 team.
I think our defense this year will be something special to watch. Although I wish we still had Quay, our dline is going to be solid. Hopefully Nick James will be able to contribute. I do hope we have a guy similar to Nickoe in the fact that you can expect him to get a huge hit on any given play. Safeties should be good this year even though Nickoe is gone. Hopefully Quad and or Deontay Evans will bring the lumber this year.
With that said, I agree, if the defense underperforms this year under Collins, I'll be disappointed to say the least. For Diaz, I do think there were times where we risked too much on defense and gave up a lot. But I did like his overall approach. If I remember right, we didn't throw a pass in the second half at Florida in 2010 and we still held them to 7.
With that said, I agree, if the defense underperforms this year under Collins, I'll be disappointed to say the least. For Diaz, I do think there were times where we risked too much on defense and gave up a lot. But I did like his overall approach. If I remember right, we didn't throw a pass in the second half at Florida in 2010 and we still held them to 7.
StaRS mATtER!!!1!1!!!11!
So you wish that we still had Quay but you don't care that Samuel is gone? By connecting the dots I've deduced that you think Quay will be missed more than Samuel. Your football iq is really showing.
So you wish that we still had Quay but you don't care that Samuel is gone? By connecting the dots I've deduced that you think Quay will be missed more than Samuel. Your football iq is really showing.
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D-line carries a bit more weight than TE's do. If you have have a great d-line, your defense will probably be pretty damn good given that all other areas of the defense don't suck. I rarely hear someone say, "Well we have a great offense because our TE's are studs.".
So, if DL is great, then D will be great. What about OL? The same for O? I would think that having someone who could block future NFL DE's and catch passes would be pretty damn important.
But hey, you're right, Hevesy has our OL stocked and we don't need anybody else to block since the leading rusher last year was the QB.**
ETA: the QB who missed about 12 quarters and split time.
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I have never bought into the so called "bend, but don't break" defensive mindset, and it's hard for to me imagine that it's a legitimate strategy. If you have a defense that has the ability to stop a team, then just stop them. Otherwise, all it says to me is that your defense is only good enough when it has the chalk behind them. Being able to stop teams in the red zone is better than nothing, but having to do so constantly is not a great defense.