I just think it's a tad hypocritical of them to suggest that they care more about the worker than themselves.
If you vote for Hillary, you're an idiot.
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I just think it's a tad hypocritical of them to suggest that they care more about the worker than themselves.
DD, when I took Labor Econ at WVU, the union could legally only do two things: collect dues; negotiate contracts
Of course, heads have turned while they did illegal things in the past. Human rights are protected more in today's workplace by government laws, thus eliminating the need for union "protection". Union participation is at lowest point since the beginning of legal organizing. Workers rights are secondary to political power of the union and high salaries for officials.
I was in a union for a short period of time. If you wanted to work in that shop you had to join the union. I was young and naive, had no idea how unions worked other than they sometimes went on strike. It was honestly the worst place I ever worked, and I honestly couldn't see how the union was helping anything at all, but they certainly took the dues.
I was working and started cleaning up around my machine and somebody put a stop to that real quick because that was somebody else's job. However, that person was busy, so I had to stand there and do nothing waiting for the guy to get done so he could clean out my machine so I could start working again.
You are very naive. Unions were the reason many labor laws are in existence in this country. I know of two hospitals, one union and one non-union and their wrkplace policies are night and day different. Some people clock in and out and others don't at the non-union hospital and the employees at the union hospital laugh at that because they know that would never fly. The non-union hospital doesn't even recognize the family medical leave act passed when Clinton was in office. The non-union hospital has chips on employee ID badges and can "track" employee movement throughout the hospital. The non-union hospital forces employees to use vacation time if they are ill the first 24 hours, regardless, and then after that they can take sick leave.
About 2 years ago we did the site work at a new school in Keyser. Per plans and specs we had to put in a "construction entrance", which was basically a gate on the fence with a gravel drive up into the site. The plumber's union complained about there only being one entrance, so the owner had to pay to put in a second "construction entrance" that was "union" right next to the non-union entrance, and when I say next to it, there was like 20 feet between the two gates. It was so fracking absurd it was laughable. I used to purposely drive through it when going to the site.
That's why I laugh when I hear the chest thumping unions like to spout.
My comments were not directed at you, they were for RPJ. I was also in a Union for a time and it was a very good one, it had a very good working relationship with the company and it also worked with and cared about the viability of the company. Later I also ran into out of control unions who fought anything and everything the company wanted to do. I remember the first time I met with some senior management employees in Chicago several years ago and as we were kicking around some ideas, EVERY suggestion I made was met with "the union won't allow us".
Any chance the differences being Exempt vs Non-Exempt on the clocking in and out and IPT being rolled into their vacation? What's the issue with the chips? It's better tracking for accountability. I would hazard a guess that this reduces their premium for malpractice insurance and streamlines their tracking by utilizing the chip to swipe into their computer tracking system for ordering meds and updating medical charts thereby increasing accuracy.
I'm highly skeptical of any company not following FMLA.
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First, you are correct about labor laws and unions. I have repeatedly stated the past role unions played in the workplace. However, you may be a little naive about todays unions. Whats wrong with knowing what your employees are doing? I guarantee the the union hospital will never be able to fire the bad apples.
Tracking employees whereabouts in a place like a hospital doesn't seem like a horrible idea. I'm assuming that they don't have card readers on the bathrooms too, but only on more sensitive areas - places where precription meds are readily accessible, places that are supposed to be reserved for specific staff (ER, OR, etc). I don't see that as a negative. As someone else already pointed out, that probably helps with malpractice insurance for the hospital, but it also helps those who are wrongly accused of some problem or another.
I've worked desk jobs where unions were antagonistic toward the employer, and I wanted to lock those union leaders into a room and make them watch Matewan. They would have missed the point though. My opinion is that unions are there to protect employees from the dangers of the work place. I understand miners wanting to unionize - same for a lot of other industry workers. I never saw the point of a union for accountants - protection from carpal tunnel? larger fonts for older accountants?
I've worked desk jobs where unions were antagonistic toward the employer, and I wanted to lock those union leaders into a room and make them watch Matewan. They would have missed the point though. My opinion is that unions are there to protect employees from the dangers of the work place. I understand miners wanting to unionize - same for a lot of other industry workers. I never saw the point of a union for accountants - protection from carpal tunnel? larger fonts for older accountants?
People still fondly remember ACME grocery store here in town. The sole union store that was forced to close its doors.
I hear by motion to unionize message board posters. Blue Lot Local #304 ... Vernon bring back 1 stars.
Well that would certainly be 1 way to get me off of the board.
Little known history about DD. In a previous life when I was fresh out of the Marine Corps. there were a group of malcontents hellbent on unionizing. Oddly, these malcontents were also the biggest underperforming employees of the group. I successfully swayed the group to vote down the idea of unionizing and further went on to ensure those individuals were "managed out" of the company.
A couple of points to be made (I know this will appear random): 1st about tracking employees at the hospital, the rumor has it that it is a real Peyton Place and they are interested in who's having affairs...what's an oncology employee doing in the cardiac area, etc. etc.
Secondly, my father was an employee in a steel mill and it was union and I'm very appreciative for that. For those of you bad mouthing unions, it's pretty personal for me. I remember when I was a kid and contracts expiring and the uncertainty of a strike or shutdown or not reaching agreement on a new contract. Yes, my dad told me bad examples of a few things unions did - taking up for a guy loafing on the job when he should have been fired, but there were also a lot of good things the union did, making sure retirement pensions weren't robbed, proper healthcare insurance, etc. etc.
Secondly, my father was an employee in a steel mill and it was union and I'm very appreciative for that. For those of you bad mouthing unions, it's pretty personal for me. I remember when I was a kid and contracts expiring and the uncertainty of a strike or shutdown or not reaching agreement on a new contract. Yes, my dad told me bad examples of a few things unions did - taking up for a guy loafing on the job when he should have been fired, but there were also a lot of good things the union did, making sure retirement pensions weren't robbed, proper healthcare insurance, etc. etc.
My concern with unions is that they are no better than the company if they get too powerful. I fully understand the desire for a union in a steel mill. It's a dangerous job, and you want someone watching out for you. I will say as a former pension actuary that a lot of those pension benefits were far too expensive for the companies to maintain - shutdown benefits that were not guaranteeable being a prime example. I'm generally in favor of pensions, but that's a place where struggling companies make a lot of promises. They view it as something they can pay off tomorrow, and they let the plan get underfunded. They continue to struggle, and a lot of those promises aren't guaranteed when the PBGC has to step in and take the pension over.
You are very stupid. Now who can offer proof of the other's allegation? You offer proof based on a history of two hospitals, but you make no reference to the connection. What are you trying to prove?
Specifically, there is a substantial amount of laws written based on RR labor agreements. No problem with that. No problem with the original intent of organization, but the union has outlived its purpose. Unions are not needed to protect rights. Government does that and it is paid for via taxes whether we want or not. Unions primary purpose is to support Democrats. The cost of unions is excessive for the benefits they provide. The workers are required to foot the bill and the officials and politicians reap the benefits
Have been on both sides of UMWA. They provided zero benefits for me. If anything, they were attempting to break my employer. The union officials directed the employees to slow down. When we went on strike, it cost me money that I was never able to recover via what increases we had to settle for. The officials told the members which contract to accept and the one to reject.
The most difficult to swallow was the campaign fund deductions at election time. One time they would label the extortion for what it was subsequent assessments were titled something else, but none the less our paychecks were reduced by a day pay. I say it was extortion, because the only people they supported were people I opposed. There was never balance. Statistics are offered that the working members were 40% Republican, but 100% of our "donations" went to the Democrats that we opposed.
Now, if you have something to offer, have a go at it.
It is obviously personal, but it is not educated. If I would have put the money into a personal IRA at the local bank, my employees would have had a fund 5 - 10 times greater than what their pitiful UMWA retirement became. Without the UMWA, there would have been not strikes to finance. As a rule, every three years employees would consume all of the savings we/they accumulated during the contract. There was a UMWA hospital built with union funds. It is now closed. Mr Roberts and Trump made millions in donations to Dem party and didn't have a reserve to keep the hospital afloat.
Mule, operators know when they sign those contracts that they cannot honor the legacy funds. The choice is sign and default later or don't sign and close shop. Most unions priced themselves out of the market. For survival, the operation goes offshore and third world countries. The finished product may not be the intended quality, but a company rapidly going broke now becomes fairly profitable and can turn a loser into one that gives ROI. It may be ugly at times, but as an operator you do what you have to do to survive. I probably took some liberties that I am not proud of, but I would never put myself in jeopardy with the feds. Different times I put the family's shelter and kids college funds in jeopardy. But that was what I had to do to survive. I could have thrown my hands up and found myself a job, but you have to give consideration to dozens of families who have depended on you. It can drive one to drink.
Where are the steel mill jobs now?
There have been a lot of non-union jobs that have moved overseas, but the unions were largely responsible for making US products non-competitive globally.
Strikes and lockouts? How does that help the company/industry? Suddenly somebody else can't get the product they need, so they find it elsewhere so they can stay in business. "Oh, look at that, it's even cheaper if I get it over here, no need to go back to that place to get my product, especially when I have to go through this crap every 3 years"
In their efforts to protect every employee's job/future in the union, they introduced untold inefficiencies that killed the industry that provided those jobs/future. Now there's nothing. No job/future for anybody in that field. The middle class and our entire economy is worse off for it. (it isn't solely the fault of unions, but most of the things lost were heavily unionized)
Union reps with $200k salaries? Who is that helping besides the rep?
Purposely slowing down production? Who does that help in the long run?
Strikes? Who does that help in the long run?
Making sure unnecessary positions are maintained? Who does that help in the long run?
Bankrupting a business over pensions? Who does that help in the long run?
Protecting employees that loaf, or worse, show up drunk every day? Who does that help in the long run?
Why does somebody who has a job that can be learned in 1/2 a day deserve an $80k salary and full retirement?
The majority of their original goals were absolutely valid, but have since been covered by labor laws and OSHA regulations and things like that.
Striking is my favorite tactic. After a normal period of time of striking (without pay) the employee striking is usually past the break even point of anything they could reasonably expect to gain out of the strike negotiations over the course of the remainder of the year. Basically, the money lost will never be reclaimed through their salary increase demands or it will take so long, what is the damn point? I think it's hilarious how short sighted the rank and file are.
It absolutely amazes me that unionization is so deeply ingrained into a lot of people - WVians in particular. We have seen people who would rather do without an income for the family rather than work non-union with same or better compensation than the union job. Have even seen people close their own job down and brag about it. That was when there were plenty jobs available. There was an equipment shop forced to close in WV by the union. Employees bragged about closing their own job down on radio. Company moved across state line and opened non-union and some of the WV employees actually went across the state line and applied for a non-union job at the company they had just shut down in WV. That kind of thinking is just beyond my capacity to comprehend.
My family is very rooted into unions with coal mines. Have lost members of the family without a union and have also lost members in a union. I fully agree with Country's sentiments before and am disgusted by other's opinion as they and you are not attempting to understand the full picture including other's experiences before sharing your opinion.
My family members are so much better off with the union versus the "old" days and everytime there has been a threat to strike, the fight they were fighting were very much worth any sacrifice that was being made.
Just sharing a little from my personal experience and won't get into much of a discussion as this does touch home more than other topics.
Yea, strike all you want. When your company shuts down for good because of it, then how much better off are you? Wouldn't it just be easier to go the route of a CBA sans the union?
I disagree. I feel that I did indeed make an attempt to understand the full picture, and not just from the perspective of the union worker, but the employer and the respective industries as a whole.
I was a union worker for a short time myself. Saw absolutely no benefit, and got pressure to go stand in picket lines or strike myself because union members at another facility were striking. Their issues had nothing to do with me, and when the strike ended it didn't make the slightest difference at all to my job. It also happened to be BY FAR the worst place I ever worked. I was happy for the experience though because I looked at that place and realized I needed to get my *** back in college because those guys worked their whole lives for essentially nothing.
Coincidentally, that place has been out of business for quite a long time too.
My family was also well rooted in the union and the mines, and no doubt they were better off because of the unions. I myself was a union member many years ago. I have actually seen rank and file members speak at union meetings and declare on the floor they they were going to put the company out of business. I suggest you read WhiteTailEER's 8:29 above post.
I have not seen a post of yours in which my comment is applicable to. If you felt like I hit you with shrapnel, I apologize as I find most of your responses on almost everything to be very well thought out and I have no issues with anything you have said on this thread.
Yes, I'm not posting any more in this thread. It's obvious that different people's experiences growing up shape their opinion and some in this thread were on the side where they didn't need a union and they obviously are very naive to what happens (company store, etc.) and obviously don't/can't appreciate the perspective from the other side. In fact, they have been raised to hate unions (obvious from this thread). To a lesser degree, some of that manipulation still occurs to this day, especially in this economy. People can be replaced at the drop of a hat, therefore, it's very easy to manipulate them. Fortunately, I have a couple of very nice degrees and hold my own destiny and don't need any leverage to keep the playing field even.
You guys in this thread need to be very more appreciative of the sacrifice that union workers have made by literally giving up their body (health) through repeated manual labor and health risk exposure. The union workers are not rocket scientists but the sacrifices made do deserve a decent wage. No, they didn't make $80K and union reps didn't make $200K like some have posted in this thread, give me a break. What they did make, ended up going to pay medical bills for black lung and asbestosis, only to have the company deny any culpability and not pay any of the medical bills and the workers ended up receiving no death compensation other than ordinary life insurance. The companies can afford the expensive lawyers that end up winning cases. I'm done.
That sentence is absolutely false. Many rank and file union members in many of the trades as well in the steel, auto and coal industry make well over $80K and most top level union executives make over $200K. I also take issue about "raised to hate unions". I don't hate unions and I also grew up in a a pro union family. I also was in a very good union. My opinion on todays union was formed by observing the actions of the union exec's. I also find your description that union members "are not rocket scientists" very condescending. Do you consider yourself a " rocket scientist"? Obviously you think your degrees put you on a higher plane. You must have been raised to think like that.
Non-union workers didn't do this? I attribute these attributes to all who work in mines, not just union workers.
#MineWorkersMatter
No one is denying the REAL historic need and role unions played in this state as well as this country, but there is also no denying the REAL damage they've done to business in some of their practices since making those historic strides.
However, when I watch a school board take money that could have been used to service children and students, and be forced to spend it on a god damn gate and gravel because of a plumbers union that won't use the same entrance as the rest of the workforce I can't help but have a little disgust by their actions and desires.
However, when I watch a school board take money that could have been used to service children and students, and be forced to spend it on a god damn gate and gravel because of a plumbers union that won't use the same entrance as the rest of the workforce I can't help but have a little disgust by their actions and desires.
How is this any different than any industry across the country? Ever heard the term "At-Will" with regard to companies?
As has been repeatedly said in this thread, where unions were once a necessity, with increased OSHA standards and labor regulations that necessity has been somewhat outlived. The pendulum swung and the unions took advantage of it without understanding the long term impacts. Just because they had a purpose 100 or even 50 or 20 years ago, doesn't mean they are beneficial today or should be a requirement for workers today out of nostalgic relevance. I certainly can appreciate what they did.
Is it wrong to point out the negative ramifications a union plays on today's economy and jobs?
And don't kid yourself. Degrees or not, working for the Gov't is almost exactly like working for a union with regard to job protections. It's also why you see huge inefficiencies in Gov't and personnel who should otherwise not be employed or fired continue to be employed.
https://www.unionfacts.com/employees/United_Mine_Workers
Total compensation for the president of UMWA is $195k according to the linked site.
You are taking a bit of a provincial approach to this whole thing because unions and the industries they work for stretch far beyond coal.
The $80k came from something I read awhile back about the UAW and guys doing relatively menial repetitive labor making over $40/hr, which equates to over $80k/yr.
Nobody is not appreciating the sacrifice union workers had to make. The coal industry/companies have a very sordid history that necessitated the forming of the unions. Nobody is denying that. However, if you look at everything those original unions were fighting for, nearly every single point has been covered by OSHA, MSHA, labor laws, etc.
Nobody has even touched on the violence (even murder) by union members when strikes were happening. My senior year at WVU there was a strike at a mine in Granville. Somebody was shot that was entering the mine property across the picket line. I don't recall details at this point, but I was thinking that it wasn't even somebody crossing the line as a scab mine worker, but rather a guy driving some kind of delivery truck. I'm also thinking that he was killed ... but that was 20+ years ago and details escape me.
Walmart is a classic example of why unions still have a place in a "non-dangerous" work environment. They flat out abuse their employees. They abuse part time workers. They commit wage law violations. They provide inadequate health care causing many of their employees to go on Medicaid, and they exploit their workers. All while generating profits north of $10 billion each year. They continue to retaliate against employees who want to organize. Walmart is the poster child for why unions are still needed.