Lemonis just isn't going to get it done

Lucifer Morningstar

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2022
940
1,428
93
Once again just one Devil's opinion, I did not spend that CWS keeping the Indians at bay for Lemonhead to run the program into the ground over the next few years. Needed to get that off my chest.

Now as far as his employment. I have said this many times. I am not a baseball Devil, but it seems to me the very fact that there has to be this on going conversation about Lemonis signals to me that a change needs to be made. Since the CWS anybody that is happy with the direction of this program put a hand up. I thought not. Anybody that thinks Lemonis is the guy to turn this around stick a hand up. Once again, I thought not. That also means it is time to cut bait.
 

Podgy

Well-known member
Oct 1, 2022
1,837
1,974
113
What is the "getting it done" standard? Top 5 SEC program? Consistent top 20 program? Hosting Regionals and making supers on a regular basis? Or is it making the SEC tourney and a 3 seed in a regional somewhere?
 

patdog

Well-known member
May 28, 2007
46,126
8,355
113
What is the "getting it done" standard? Top 5 SEC program? Consistent top 20 program? Hosting Regionals and making supers on a regular basis? Or is it making the SEC tourney and a 3 seed in a regional somewhere?
If “getting it done” means doing just enough for our lazy, cheap athletic dept not to fire him, then he’ll get it done.
 

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
1,352
1,659
113
Again I'm not sure what you are arguing: you asked a question... i answered it. I haven't argued anything else.

You said name the players that were inherited by Lemonis that played a role in the national champion team. I did that

4 or 5 starters of your 9 starters on that national championship team-- 3 of them being your 1-2-3 hitters
1 of your 2 studs on the mound
1 key bullpen arm
2 other players that were key members of the programs and draft picks
I'm just trying to clarify the record. Some people seem to think Lemonis won the national title with an "inherited" roster. If you're not saying that, great.

I'm arguing that Lemonis won the national title in year three with a year three roster, the two biggest pieces he "inherited" being TA and Rowdey.

You listed nine players:
2-TA and Rowdey: on the 2018 roster; major 2021 contributors
2-Self and Hatcher: on the 2018 roster; not primary players by the end of the 2021 season
2-MacLeod and B. Smith: not on the 2018 roster, on the 2019 roster; weekend starter and weekend reliever in 2021
2-Hancock and Cumbest: not on the 2018 roster, on the 2019 roster; primary players in 2021
1-Cerantola: not on the 2018 roster, on the 2019 roster; not a primary player in 2021

We all agree on TA and Rowdey.

Of the other seven players, five arrived on campus after Lemonis, and three weren't major contributors by the end of 2021.

I then listed 17 players not included in your nine that produced at least something in the NCAA tournament.

So, if we count the 2019 roster as "inherited", seven of the 24 players that produced in the 2021 NCAA tournament were inherited. If we don't count the 2019 roster as inherited, three of the 24 players that produced in the NCAA tournament were inherited.

If that's all you have to inherit to win a national title, every SEC coach should have a national title by year three, including every Mississippi State coach from this point forward. And no disrespect to those guys, but outside of TA and Rowdey, players of that caliber are on 11-13 SEC rosters every year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: She Mate Me

HuntDawg

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,346
678
113
I'm just trying to clarify the record. Some people seem to think Lemonis won the national title with an "inherited" roster. If you're not saying that, great.

I'm arguing that Lemonis won the national title in year three with a year three roster, the two biggest pieces he "inherited" being TA and Rowdey.

You listed nine players:
2-TA and Rowdey: on the 2018 roster; major 2021 contributors
2-Self and Hatcher: on the 2018 roster; not primary players by the end of the 2021 season
2-MacLeod and B. Smith: not on the 2018 roster, on the 2019 roster; weekend starter and weekend reliever in 2021
2-Hancock and Cumbest: not on the 2018 roster, on the 2019 roster; primary players in 2021
1-Cerantola: not on the 2018 roster, on the 2019 roster; not a primary player in 2021

We all agree on TA and Rowdey.

Of the other seven players, five arrived on campus after Lemonis, and three weren't major contributors by the end of 2021.

I then listed 17 players not included in your nine that produced at least something in the NCAA tournament.

So, if we count the 2019 roster as "inherited", seven of the 24 players that produced in the 2021 NCAA tournament were inherited. If we don't count the 2019 roster as inherited, three of the 24 players that produced in the NCAA tournament were inherited.

If that's all you have to inherit to win a national title, every SEC coach should have a national title by year three, including every Mississippi State coach from this point forward. And no disrespect to those guys, but outside of TA and Rowdey, players of that caliber are on 11-13 SEC rosters every year.

9 players are there. I'll let you discount Self, but not Cerantola. He was a 5th round draft pick. Sorta on Lemo and company to figure out how to make him useful.

Yes in year 3. You are going to have more players on the roster you recruited than are not on the roster. Thats obvious.

Of the 9 left here: 4 of them were every day starters. Your 1-2-3 hole hitters, the hitter of the year. One of your two studs on the mound. And a key bullpen piece.

Its just my opinion. When you are left a Friday night starter, the best hitter in the country. 4 starters. And the top 3 hitters in your order. Not to mention a quality bullpen arm.... its a pretty nice core to build around...

I would guess if you gave every coach that walked into a new job. Their top 3 hitters, one of them being the best hitter in the country. A legit Friday night starter. Another starter who ended up being 5th round draft pick. 2 other position guys who started 1 right handed, 1 left-- that would play in every game basically-- both end up being draft picks... and a quality bullpen arm to build around--- i'm not sure any of them would look around and say, dang i got screwed here
 
Last edited:

OG Goat Holder

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2022
5,934
5,612
113
Lemonis was 167-93 (58-62). That's the equivalent of a 35-20 (14-16) type team in a single season. That's not a fireable offense, especially when there's a national title included in there.

It appears to me we're headed toward a similar type of record. This is the exact same type records Lemonis had at Indiana.

It really is Polk 2. Tough decisions lie ahead.
 

pseudonym

Well-known member
Oct 6, 2022
1,352
1,659
113
i'm not sure any of them would look around and say, dang i got screwed here
No one is saying Lemonis got screwed. Lemonis did inherit a good roster... in 2019. He took what he inherited, won 20 SEC games, earned our second top-8 national seed in 21 years, and went to Omaha. Two years later, he took a very different roster, won 20 SEC games again, earned our third top-8 national seed in 22 years, and won the national title.

The mythology among State fans who want to get rid of Lemonis is that he started building his first roster in July 2021.

To be clear: I have no problem criticizing Lemonis for games he's lost. I have no problem criticizing Lemonis for bad seasons. But he won a national title on Day 1,102 on the job. I'm not going to take away what he did in those days.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: She Mate Me

OG Goat Holder

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2022
5,934
5,612
113
What is the "getting it done" standard? Top 5 SEC program? Consistent top 20 program? Hosting Regionals and making supers on a regular basis? Or is it making the SEC tourney and a 3 seed in a regional somewhere?
It should be filling up the stadium and hosting regionals half the time. That’s the main driver. If we keep doing that, we will attract recruits and win games.
 
  • Like
Reactions: patdog

BossDawg78

Active member
Jan 25, 2015
3,292
252
83


"Lemonis just isn't going to get it done" is one of the dumbest things you could say about him. He literally got it done with a pitching staff that had like 4 working arms.

As I've said before, I'm bewildered how Lemon got us a national championship and failed to build off of it. The next two seasons after the NC were atrocious, and this one isn't looking too promising either.
 

OG Goat Holder

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2022
5,934
5,612
113
As I've said before, I'm bewildered how Lemon got us a national championship and failed to build off of it. The next two seasons after the NC were atrocious, and this one isn't looking too promising either.
How do you build off being the best. Just curious. Nowhere to go but down. Unless you’re Arnold Schwarzenegger.
 

ronpolk

Well-known member
May 6, 2009
7,781
2,081
113


"Lemonis just isn't going to get it done" is one of the dumbest things you could say about him. He literally got it done with a pitching staff that had like 4 working arms.

Exactly… you can say we may need to move on but you can’t say he isn’t going to get it done… he’s done it better than any other coach at state.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: patdog

BossDawg78

Active member
Jan 25, 2015
3,292
252
83
How do you build off being the best. Just curious. Nowhere to go but down. Unless you’re Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Never said we'd be better. But at the very least we shouldn't have been an embarassment. The next two seasons we won 26 and 27 games, no postseason. How the hell did that happen? Nowhere to go but down but we shouldn't have gone THAT far down.
 

99jc

Active member
Jul 31, 2008
2,293
178
63
Here we are again RPI watching and playing out scenarios where we can get just enough wins to make the tournament. This isn't State baseball, and there are still just too many problems that are going to prevent the program from getting back to being respected.

HS recruiting - I see the recruiting rankings, but I don't see the results on the field. Either the staff is poor at evaluation, or they are poor at developing. They could be poor at both.

Portal - Major fail. Lemonis has gotten essentially one good Portal player per year, and the rest shouldn't be on an SEC roster.

Scheduling - This season's schedule stinks. There's no excuse for it, either. The staff should know how this works by now, but they put out a high risk/low reward schedule. Scheduling Mt St Mary instead of a P5 on the road was just dumb.

Hitting development - Name a player in the Lemonis era that left State a much better hitter than when they arrived. His best hitters showed up to campus as good hitters.

Game management - Leaving pitchers in when it's obvious they don't have it. Starting an inexperienced LH DH against a LHP MULTIPLE times. Not willing to make any lineup changes, even when your leadoff guy is hitting .170 in conference. He just doesn't have a feel for the game.

Hitting approach - What even is our hitting approach? Take 2 strikes, pound your chest, and swing as hard as possible? There is just too much selfishness in our hitting approach. I'd like to know how many times we have had runners in scoring position with less than 2 outs, and the batter failed to put the ball in play. More often than not, its the heart of the lineup. If we aren't striking out, we are just pounding ground ball righ into the shift.

Roster transparency - Look, I get it that Lemonis can only say so much about an injury, but it seems like he goes out of his way to mislead everyone about players who are MIA. Every year, players just stop seeing the field, and there's no explanation provided. Players are injured for weeks, and Lemonis just says they are "close" over and over. Simmons, Cupp, Pico, Highfill , Dohm, Loftin, and Ligon have all missed games or just disappeared, and the explanation has been either vague, non-existent, or completely misleading.

Roster depth - Doesn't exist. Our finish this year really doesn't matter. Lemonis isn't building. He's demolishing.


Lemonis corrected some things this season, but there are still some of the same issues. Despite the improvement, there just aren't any indications that the program should continue with him. There is just a lack of attention to detail in too many areas. The last thing I want for the program is another coaching change, but this just isn't working.
You just know figuring that out!
 

Perd Hapley

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2022
3,044
3,163
113
Pardon my ignorance, but who’s really responsible for the OOC schedule in baseball? Is it the head coach or the AD? Shouldnt we be blaming Cohen for the shıtty schedule since it was (mostly) finalized during his tenure?
AD and coaching staff work together on schedule. Neither has full autonomy, but the buck stops with the AD because they cut the checks to the other schools on the schedule.
 

Perd Hapley

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2022
3,044
3,163
113
He didn't inherit players that weren't on the 2018 roster. Every player committed/signed when we made a coaching change had the option to go elsewhere. They chose to play for Lemonis at State starting 2019 or later.

Self didn't see action after the second SEC weekend in 2021 due to injury. Hatcher lost his starting job during the 2021 season* and transferred to Kennesaw State.

The idea that Lemonis doesn't deserve credit for the roster in June 2021 after being hired in June 2018 is asinine.

*-This board was ready to fire Lemonis during the 2021 season because he didn't bench Hatcher soon enough.
College baseball recruiting doesn’t work that way. Elite guys who win you natty’s are locked in by sophomore year in high school. By the time they are high school juniors, the school that signed them is already working on the class behind them.

Coaching change or not, both sides are more or less stuck together after the kids commit. Other schools can’t really make room because they are already full when a change happens when a kid is an upperclassmen.

There are a few exceptions….TA was committed to LSU because he liked Cann. Flipped to MSU when Cann got the job. But, he was the only one. Everyone else stayed with LSU even though they likely had better playing time availability in many cases at MSU. Lemonis also was able to flip Bednar from Ohio State. Bednar had a great relationship with Lemonis….but IU was a sh*t program that was also farther away from home than OSU. When he got our job, suddenly it was a much easier sell to get Bednar on board.

Ironically, those are the two guys that pretty much won us the title. And Lemonis got one of them. But absolutely no one can just jettison 2-3 signing classes worth of players and get anything in the form of serviceable replacements when they take a new gig. Just isn’t possible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Msuirondawgs

DAWGSANDSAINTS

Well-known member
Oct 10, 2022
1,308
1,134
113
Here we are again RPI watching and playing out scenarios where we can get just enough wins to make the tournament. This isn't State baseball, and there are still just too many problems that are going to prevent the program from getting back to being respected.

HS recruiting - I see the recruiting rankings, but I don't see the results on the field. Either the staff is poor at evaluation, or they are poor at developing. They could be poor at both.

Portal - Major fail. Lemonis has gotten essentially one good Portal player per year, and the rest shouldn't be on an SEC roster.

Scheduling - This season's schedule stinks. There's no excuse for it, either. The staff should know how this works by now, but they put out a high risk/low reward schedule. Scheduling Mt St Mary instead of a P5 on the road was just dumb.

Hitting development - Name a player in the Lemonis era that left State a much better hitter than when they arrived. His best hitters showed up to campus as good hitters.

Game management - Leaving pitchers in when it's obvious they don't have it. Starting an inexperienced LH DH against a LHP MULTIPLE times. Not willing to make any lineup changes, even when your leadoff guy is hitting .170 in conference. He just doesn't have a feel for the game.

Hitting approach - What even is our hitting approach? Take 2 strikes, pound your chest, and swing as hard as possible? There is just too much selfishness in our hitting approach. I'd like to know how many times we have had runners in scoring position with less than 2 outs, and the batter failed to put the ball in play. More often than not, its the heart of the lineup. If we aren't striking out, we are just pounding ground ball righ into the shift.

Roster transparency - Look, I get it that Lemonis can only say so much about an injury, but it seems like he goes out of his way to mislead everyone about players who are MIA. Every year, players just stop seeing the field, and there's no explanation provided. Players are injured for weeks, and Lemonis just says they are "close" over and over. Simmons, Cupp, Pico, Highfill , Dohm, Loftin, and Ligon have all missed games or just disappeared, and the explanation has been either vague, non-existent, or completely misleading.

Roster depth - Doesn't exist. Our finish this year really doesn't matter. Lemonis isn't building. He's demolishing.


Lemonis corrected some things this season, but there are still some of the same issues. Despite the improvement, there just aren't any indications that the program should continue with him. There is just a lack of attention to detail in too many areas. The last thing I want for the program is another coaching change, but this just isn't working.
This guy understands it ☝️☝️☝️☝️
 

She Mate Me

Well-known member
Dec 7, 2008
8,246
4,383
113
Won’t be the first time they’ve been wrong. You do realize this is the same site that says we’ve been recruiting top 10 classes.

They may be wrong, but I have a strong feeling they know a lot more about college baseball than the vast majority of posters here, myself definitely included.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Msuirondawgs

Anon1664516582

Active member
Sep 30, 2022
366
284
63
Yall do remember that Virginia was NO HITTING us until the 7th inning in Omaha… we were HISTORY… then we catch a break or two and then our pitching just takes over the rest of then tournament….

We had far superior talent than we do now and still got lucky in that Virginia game because they ran OUT of pitching…

Fat boy didn’t win us those games… Timely hitting and much better talent did.

Fat boy still can’t coach and sure as hell can’t recruit…
 

blacklistedbully

Well-known member
Apr 9, 2010
3,887
566
113
Probably have to count the recruits that were coming here already or signed already as part of the group he inherited.

Which would include:
McCleod- Friday night starter
Smith- Key pen arm
Cernatola
Hancock- 3 hole hitter
Cumbest

On Top of Allen/Rowdy

Think he also inherited Hatcher and Self.

Not a bad core to inherit.
And Landon Sims was already coming to MSU if he didn't get a great draft offer. Best you can say is Lemonis didn't scare him off. Bednar did like Lemonis during recruitment, but also has said he was particularly sold on our atmosphere, facilities, history of success and more.
 

RopeDawg

Member
Feb 24, 2023
84
65
18
To use the bill parcells theory:

Lemomis deserves credit for baking the cake. Even shopping for a lot of the ingredients for that cake. But some key pieces to making that cake were already in the kitchen before he arrived.

You seem to want to say the baking part of the cake was the most important part, others say the ingredients are. Both have merits to being right.
To further the analogy:

Cohen and Cannizzaro went to Whole Foods and bought all gourmet organic ingredients for this cake, brought it back to the industrial kitchen and asked Lemonis to read the directions and bake it using commercial grade equipment. It turned out great.

A year later Lemonis was craving this cake again but went to Dollar General and got Clover Valley brand ingredients and made it according to the same recipe. The oven caught fire and the cake burnt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PhredPhantom

thekimmer

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2012
7,100
971
113
How do you build off being the best. Just curious. Nowhere to go but down. Unless you’re Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Seriously you have to ask that question? For starters, how about you reload and win another NC in the next 5-10 years instead of 110 years.
 

We Men

Member
Oct 24, 2018
108
27
28
I'm with the What have you done for me lately crowd. He and his staff have had plenty of time to build a good MSU team, and I just don't think he has done that. I also don't have enough faith in him that he can do that.