LFL questions

[OneParticularHarbor]

How many spots (for lack of a better way to describe them) are there in the OF at DNF? And how much currently do they cost per season? Some of us were discussing ideas for the roost area (which is, by Hill Denson's admission, a ripoff of the LFL) at USM and those questions came up.

 

[aTotal360]

The cost per slot is minimal. Something like $350-$500 a year. Quite frankly, I think that is what the outrage is about. If they were $10,000+, people wouldn't ***** as much about the availability. The price allows everyone to say "I can afford it, so I should have it". No one is clamoring about making football skyboxes "more accessible to everyone".

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

Wow- a spot in RF at USM costs around $800 per season. Nobody ever gives them up, either. $350-500 is a bargain for the product.

 

[engie]

https://d1baseball.com/columns/mississippi-state-fans-adapt-change/

It's going from $250 today to $2000 in the renovation. There are 86 spots both now and in the new design.

This, along with the grandfathered in lifetime seats in the grandstands -- and practically zero comparable experiences to either in the form of general admission seating -- is why it has to all be torn down and rebuilt.

The outfield funds raised alone in the new Dudy Noble, if you include the current iteration of the lofts which I'm still not positive either way about, would afford approximately the 4th highest paid head coach in college baseball all by themselves.

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

Wow again

Thanks for that info. It's unbelievable that it costs so little. USM charges at least 3 times that or more. One difference is that the spot owners drive in and out for each game. There's only one structure that stays all year in the same manner as the MSU structures.

 

[57stratdawg]

The cost per slot is minimal. Something like $350-$500 a year. Quite frankly, I think that is what the outrage is about.

No, the complaint is that everyone is losing massive amount of square footage. That '4 tiered' lay is one spot 8X16, then each tier is 36 inches. People will go from being able to host 30-50+ individuals per weekened to hosting 10. Plus, included in your 8X16 is your 'grill area'.

Frankly, the costs is a total nonfactor.

 

[patdog]

The current LFL is the one of the last remaining vestiges of the old, "I've had these seats forever, so I'm entitled to keep them forever without paying anywhere near their true value or contributing anything to the Bulldog Club" mentality at MSU.

 

[aTotal360]

I'm talking about the bitching about LFL coming from non-LFLers. Not rig owners.

 

[Xenomorph]

I didn't feel bad for the re-seating of the Hump. But my heart breaks a little for LFL folks.

 

[57stratdawg]

Then make the trailers $2,000 per year and everyone is happy.

 

[johnson86-1]

I didn't feel bad for the re-seating of the Hump. But my heart breaks a little for LFL folks.

Ehh. They created something special at MSU (or at least the originals did) and they have gotten to enjoy it for decades. They are still getting a sweetheart deal at $2K per spot.

I am more concerned that we are losing some of the uniqueness. I can understand why it would be hard to keep it in the context of a new stadium, but I would have preferred for them to up the costs and also done something for liability, either require the owners to put up a liability policy and name the school as additional insureds, or get rid of the requirement to remove the trailer each year and require a PE to stamp the design and certify that it was constructed per design, or maybe both.

 

[57stratdawg]

I would have preferred for them to up the costs and also done something for liability, either require the owners to put up a liability policy and name the school as additional insureds, or get rid of the requirement to remove the trailer each year and require a PE to stamp the design and certify that it was constructed per design, or maybe both.

MSU carries liability policies which fully covered LFL already. This was pointed out during one of the 'town-hall' meetings.

 

[engie]

Then make the trailers $2,000 per year and everyone is happy.

Without a 360* concourse -- and no way to install one. Which adds a lot to the game experience that is unrealized for the most part by MSU fans. I wish they could make the spots bigger, but there is only so much space. What really should have happened was the drainage system/playing surface not been redone a couple of years back -- and the field lowered 10ft or so to give more space between surface level and concourse level.

Fewer people per rig now -- but many more spaces those overflow people can actually go and enjoy the game and enjoy the same outcome(drinking and grilling with friends). Will add thousands of total spots to do that now -- compared to the current structure -- where those 30 have the time of their life -- and the 3k behind them are standing only, can only see the batter, and really just hammering the alcohol because they can't get into a game they can hardly see.

 

[patdog]

The people bitching today aren't going to be happy no matter what we do. The new stadium is going to be incredible, and the new LFL area is going to be incredible.

 

[57stratdawg]

The people bitching today aren't going to be happy no matter what we do.

Thats such a lazy approach to this subject. If you had a hunting camp that routinely had 50 people there in 2016 and found out that would be reduced to 15 in 2017; you'd be pissed too.

Which nieces, nephews, co-workers, church friends, college friends, fraternity brothers, customers would you start with to say 'I don't have room for you anymore'?

 

[patdog]

If i had a hunting camp that I stumbled upon in the woods and had been using for years without paying anyone anything and suddenly the owner came up and said, hey, I'm going to need to start charging you a fair price to use the camp and I really only have room for 15 of you here, but I've got a pretty cool spot for the other 35 to hunt over there that they can use for free; I don't think I'd have any reason to complain.

 

[johnson86-1]

Thats such a lazy approach to this subject. If you had a hunting camp that routinely had 50 people there in 2016 and found out that would be reduced to 15 in 2017; you'd be pissed too.

Which nieces, nephews, co-workers, church friends, college friends, fraternity brothers, customers would you start with to say 'I don't have room for you anymore'?

Well that's still a little bit of a lazy approach.

It'd be more like decades ago, a small group was given the right to hunt a portion of the 16th section land, say the left corner portion, at a nominal price. The land was good, but not a particularly desirable part of the 16th section land and there was other parts of the 16th section land that was considered more valuable. Then, over a couple of decades, the people hunting the land corner helped create a reputation for that portion of the 16th section land as a unique, fun, hunting camp, and all of the sudden, the formerly cheaper portion of the 16th Section land is now the most desirable. Over the same time, the popularity of hunting takes off some on its own, and all of the 16th Section land becomes more valuable.

The Board of Supervisors then stupidly allows some people to enter into long term leases for cheap prices with the most valuable portion of the 16th Section land other than the left corner section. Despite a lot of people clamoring for the option to bid on the left corner portion, the Board of Supervisors also repeatedly says that even though they are letting the original people (or their heirs) hunt the left corner portion at way below what is now the fair market price for the camp, a lot of the demand for the camp is a result of those original people because they made the camp fun, and it creates a lot of good PR for the county, and the Board of Supervisors is going to continue to give them exclusive rights to the left corner portion for a nominal price.

Eventually, as the prices for all similar facilities have been escalating, the BOS says we can't keep passing up that money for the education system and preventing anybody new from having access. As a first step, the long term leases at cheap prices are going away for most of the 16th Section land. For the left corner portion, in recognition that the original hunters did so much to make the left corner portion desirable, they still aren't going to put the left corner out for bid, but they are going to raise the price to something that's a little more than nominal, even if it's still cheap. They're also going to require some modernization of the left corner portion to allow better access to everybody else hunting the non-left corner portion, and that modernization is going to significantly reduce the number of guests the left corner portion hunters can host.

 

[Mjoelner]

I haven't heard a single person out there complain about the price increase. A member of our crew is probably the most vocal opponent to changing the LFL. He was also the first one of us to pony up his donation for the new spot. And, rig owners are already required to be in the Bulldog Club so, wrong on both accounts there.

There are two main reasons people are complaining. 1. We are going from a unique tradition started by MSU and proudly advertised by us and hyped by the media to box seating like dozens of other stadiums. If people can't understand that, then they are arguing just for the sake of arguing and truthfully, their viewpoint goes in one ear and out the other with me. Plus, I'd bet 99.9% don't have skin in the game and that's what pisses them off the most. 2. As someone already mentioned in this thread, the size of each new structure is going to cut out a lot of people. Good luck getting more than 10 in your future spot where some seat close to 40 now. People are mistaken if they think they are just going to go stand on the walkway between the new spots and watch the game. It's going to be crowded with the overflow of people that used to be able to sit on a rig.

The lounge was started by locals and students and that's still, by far, the vast majority out there today. Go to a Tuesday night game in February when it's 42 degrees and windy and check out the stadium. You won't see any big donors from Jackson sitting amongst the 15 or so people in the grandstands but you will see a few hundred students and locals in the LFL.

Lets throw some lattice work on this then paint it maroon and white. Yeah! There's the NEW LFL! IT'S 17ING GLORIOUS!!!

 

[57stratdawg]

I get it. LFL owners have no room to complain about the price increase, because if they don't want to pay it; someone else will.

But, the unintended (or intended, depending on who you talk to) consequence of the LFL remodel is relocating thousands of people from LFL to chairbacks & premium seating. If the DNF-Master Plan announcement starts with that statement in 2014, people would have flown off the rails. Instead, it got spoon feed to us over the course of several years. Honestly, I don't think the average MSU fan realizes it - unless you own a rig, of course.

 

[engie]

Thats such a lazy approach to this subject. If you had a hunting camp that routinely had 50 people there in 2016 and found out that would be reduced to 15 in 2017; you'd be pissed too.

Which nieces, nephews, co-workers, church friends, college friends, fraternity brothers, customers would you start with to say 'I don't have room for you anymore'?

You defined the problem. In the current stadium -- you "not having room" for those people banishes them to no-man's-land. They ain't coming to the game period unless they are on the rig once they have ever experienced the rigs -- and for good reason -- because everything else out there sucks. SRO sucks. Less so if you get there really early and are right on the right field fence and can see unobstructed -- but 95% of the SRO out there can't see a thing. So, then the bleachers are an option -- but wait -- those suck even worse and equal a sore neck by midgame without even being a good drinking and socializing environment. This keeps A HUGE PERCENTAGE of our fanbase at home. I can make a call and have a spot on a rig, in the stands, or in the skyboxes anytime I want -- but I hate making that call. After a bunch of bleacher/hill sits out there -- I'm watching on watchESPN rather than fighting it the vast majority of the season. I imagine a huge percentage of our potential fans are just like me in regards to that.

In the new stadium -- there will be tons of great places for these people to go and do their own thing -- and establish their own traditions. That's the part rig owners are missing. Currently, they have an exclusive setup. And if people aren't a part of that exclusive setup, as an invited guest or whatever, they are totally screwed in the outfield. This is why everyone and their brother wants to come cram into those rigs. Because they can't otherwise watch, drink, and eat comfortably out there. You give people the other really good options -- and you take away a lot of the overflow demand on the rig owners.

 

[engie]

It's funny you bring up the OM terraces in trying to make your point. They currently pack double or triple as many people into there outfield as MSU actually has in ours on any given day. I know you are going to argue that -- but you aren't taking a step back and looking at it realistically. Why has a couple of simple gravel tiers surpassed the LFL in actual fan participation? Answer that -- and you'll answer why the new overall stadium experience was badly needed -- and will be greatly rewarding in the long run. While still not actually getting rid of or doing away with LFL.

 

[engie]

But, the unintended (or intended, depending on who you talk to) consequence of the LFL remodel is relocating thousands of people from LFL to chairbacks & premium seating.

I don't think so. You funnel the people that are just in LFL to watch the game as their priority rather than cooking and drinking and socializing -- that currently don't have a grandstand option -- into the grandstand. Which is good. We need a crap ton more people in the grandstand for appearance purposes.

You funnel the majority of the LFL overflow -- into basically what OM does under the scoreboard and along the RF line terrace for the partiers -- and down the left field line for the families. That is STILL LFL. Just not on a rig. And instead of the consequence you imagine(lost heads -- per rig) -- you actually add a whole bunch of heads out there -- because they can show up without planning in advance and calling favors -- to comfortably drink and talk to girls -- while still being able to enjoy the game. And it's not separated out exclusively how it currently is -- where it difficult if not impossible to get from point A to point B. You buy one GA ticket -- and you can make a round through the whole stadium socializing with everyone -- without ever missing a pitch.

Guess I have a different view on some of this -- because I had a handful of friends go on to star at OM -- and obviously went to State and had a couple there as well, but my closest friends were at OM and I spent a lot of time at those games over a couple of years. I got to experience both outfields(before theirs fully became what it is now) -- and it could not have been more obvious what a huge portion of potential fans State was missing the boat on with the rig exclusivity and no decent GA/common area option.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

delete

 

[Hoover Dawg]

This whole deal comes down to a simple question - what's best for me or what's best for MSU?

The ONLY people who oppose this are the LFL rig owners who have gotten an incredibly awesome deal over the years. And this is coming from someone who benefited from lifetime seats for many years. Difference in me and those others is that I can see what would be the best for MSU.

Making people pay more might just convince people to show up for more games too. The same goes for the grandstand folks. Lifetime season tickets holders were getting tickets so cheap that they could essentially miss 3/4 of the season and it not hurt them too much.

It's time to take this deal to the next level. We've got a baseball minded AD who loves MSU baseball more than his own wife. We've got one of the top young coaches in college baseball. We've got a brand new stadium on the horizon that has been planned meticulously from day one. Get on the train or get left behind. It's about MSU and not your cronies. Grow up. We've got to get more people out there and develop the fanbase.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

A typical MSU fan who brings his family to the game a few times per year would have much more fun in an outfield terrace setting, than sitting in the bleachers and wishing he knew someone who could get him in a LFL rig.

 

[Mjoelner]

I don't know. Beer showers?

I'm guessing you're going to say because they're first-come, first-serve or something right? And, all of that prime real estate isn't taken up with redneck structures which allows for more people. Right again?

I still don't see what that has to do with altering the LFL. Yeah, you could replace the whole damn thing with general admission bleachers from foul pole to foul pole and we'd seat more people out there on big weekends. Is it worth doing that at the cost of destroying a tradition?

 

[Mjoelner]

Welcome to me at football games but I couldn't get into a club level seat no matter how much I donated. At least in the LFL people will let you sit on their rigs if they have space.

 

[Mjoelner]

I've always thought sitting in the LFL was a privlege and should be considered club seating. I was shocked when I was first asked to join a rig that the owner didn't even have to be in the Bulldog Club at the time. Byrne changed that I believe. Beyond upping the cost of each site out there, I would not be against the requirement that each rig purchase a minimum number of season tickets and that those season tickets be required to show a certain percentage of use. This would be easy to accomplish with the scanners they use now. You don't buy the tickets or one of them does not meet the usage requirement? Congratulations, you just lost your spot next year. I go a lot now but I can promise you I'd go a helluva lot more if it meant keeping my seat and so would others.

 

[Hoover Dawg]

I have no real opinion about the look of the lounges. My main thing is that I want GA people to have somewhere to go. We have WAY too much space for those folks not be able to watch games. I understand SBW and post-season play - that's going to be crowded. But the rest of the year, those people should be accommodated.

The bleachers are what truly suck. I really think we're missing out on a generation of fans due to that. I would always give my tickets away for free to people who want to go to games, when I had extras - never sell, so they could help fill up the grandstand. Guess I'm just more idealistic about it than most.

Also, I thought a short-term solution would just be to allow anybody to come into the grandstand and take open seats. But, we have too many socially inept ******** who think it's an inconvenience to either (1) ask someone nicely to move (if they are in their seat), or (2) actually get up and move if they are in someone else's seat. The petty **** is what blows my mind.

 

[ShrubDog]

View attachment 6266

 

[engie]

I don't know. Beer showers?

I'm guessing you're going to say because they're first-come, first-serve or something right? And, all of that prime real estate isn't taken up with redneck structures which allows for more people. Right again?

I still don't see what that has to do with altering the LFL. Yeah, you could replace the whole damn thing with general admission bleachers from foul pole to foul pole and we'd seat more people out there on big weekends. Is it worth doing that at the cost of destroying a tradition?

This just shows the extent to which you simply do not get it. You live in your own little bubble out there -- without experiencing life out there from anyone else's. You couldn't be more wrong on anything you said about the logistics on OM's setup here -- but I know I can't explain it to you -- because I already tried for a long time.

When the stadium is built -- and actual attendance doubles -- with rave reviews from everyone, even those complaining loudest right now -- I'll be right about all of this all over again. Just as I have been on what needed to happen at the stadium(and consequently what is actually happening) ever since the dawn of this discussion. I've been brainstorming for years about how to have it all and do it all -- what they came up with is as close as you can possibly come to checking all the boxes(assuming they tier the GA drinking sections(chair and grill and cooler compatible) rather than just doing berms. You simply can't keep the existing rigs and do a 360 concourse, without implementing design limitations on the rigs -- at which point you might as well build it yourself.

And as simply as I can break it down for you -- in OM's setup, everyone has somewhere to belong, feel included, and make great memories. This has led to those alums coming back at a great rate and more and more student involvement. They now outpace us in overall baseball support. At MSU's setup, there are exclusive few who have somewhere to belong or be included -- and the opportunities afforded them otherwise at DNF are absolutely miserable. This had led to the same few providing all of the support -- without ever growing the brand or reaching all of the other potential out there, for which I feel like there is an insane untapped resource. I'm not trying to take anything away from those exclusive few -- I'm just trying to give everyone else something they can enjoy.

 

[Croom's knee socks]

I'm excited about the 360 concourse. I'll miss the old LFL but this change is for the better as far as I'm concerned. I'm mainly excited that those aluminum bleaches along the foul lines will be replaced with actual seats.

 

[ShrubDog]

I haven't heard a single person out there complain about the price increase.

A person complained to me about the price increase, basically can't afford it anymore. She hasn't asked for any donations so I have no idea what is going to happen.

 

[57stratdawg]

You make good points, engie. You always do. We could have checked alot of 'new stadium' boxes in a way that doesn't end with rig owners losing 50-75% of their square footage.

I hope when opposing fans come to DNF in the future we get a steady stream of compliments on our outfield concourse, because that 6 to 8 foot walkway with limited accessibility cost us one of the coolest features in college athletics.

 

[engie]

You say that -- but people aren't actually giving up anything. Square footage, sure. And the people actually displaced by that square footage loss are getting good replacement amenities for the first time since I've been going to games. Guess technically I'm one being displaced in the outfield since I sure won't be imposing on someone with half the space now, at least not in the front end of the deal. However, now I'll be able to walk into my own decent gig out there now with connections still in town to set up out there when big weekends come.

It's tantamount to claiming cars really lost something by going fuel injected and now more and more toward electric. They did, technically. But no one is pining over their old 4bbl without power brakes or AC.

OM baseball outraised us by some outrageous number last year. How do we thrive longterm given the limitations we have -- if we actually cease to outraise our competitors? We aren't building it as a charity case to ourselves. And the value of a GA season ticket is going to skyrocket when people realize how much the experience doesn't suck anymore now that they have somewhere to go(and thus the price goes up accordingly). Watch and see.

Do you consider the walkway around Trustmark to be limited accessibility?

 

[DerHntr]

The thing that sucks about the redesign is we are losing the most unique tradition in the history of our university. You cannot watch an MSU game and not hear the commentators discuss how cool it is. You can't talk college baseball very often with a non-MSU person and the lounge not come up.

I was excited that we were attempting to save part of LFL and provide GA like at OM (which is awesome btw) and we were trying to add something else totally unique to MSU with the LF Lofts. Unfortunately the lofts idea seems to be hard to implement and dead already. It's not surprising because the coolest things that happen at a university typically are driven by the fans and not the school, just like the lounge.

I do think a lot of people will love the new outfield once they experience it. It is still OK though to hate seeing the lounge as it is today be changed.

 

[engie]

Lofts apparently not dead, fwiw... I think they were at one time. Back to a maybe now.

I agree that you just can't have it all. If we had $100mil to throw at it --- I'd limit current loft height in right, put a 15 ft concourse above them at sight level -- and OM style tiers behind the concourse for the students. Then build what basically amounts to a tiered bridge behind the LFL that you can see from above the lounge that connects back to our current main grandstand idea.

LFL is so well-known because it started it all in college baseball. I just don't think metal and wood is what makes it what it is -- it's the people. And adding more people and welcoming new generations are going to payoff in big rewards. The Yankees didn't cease to be the Yankees because they built anew -- and wrigley didn't cease to be wrigley because they spent half a bil on it. Something was lost, something was gained, and a World Series is what was afforded.

 

[bruiser.sixpack]

I think a point is being missed here. If the current set up had not led to people not only setting up their rigs but taking the space between the rig and the fence and blocking it off where people who are not in their little click can't even walk out there it has finally pissed off enough people that want a slice of that area, that they started complaining to the decision makers. That is simply speculation by me, but I have seen the fenced off areas and grill systems that block the walking deck. And I don't have a dog in the fight so I don't really care.

 

[paindonthurt_]

I pay to be in a LFL now. It's not my lounge but I'm in "the group". I'm potentially gonna lose my spot due to the space.

So 17ing what. We are making a change for the better.

The "tradition" of the left field lounge has evolved since it started. It's still evolving for the better. Maybe not to a few but it's getting better as a whole.

 

[pmack65]

I'll put my 2 cents in for what it's worth. Currently I am a rig owner along with 2 other gentlemen. Our rig is located approximately in right center. Our current charge for renting a space is $150. Our new "rig" or platform with be almost in the same location as will all other rig owners, give or take a few feet left or right. Rig owners will still have the availability of the walkway in front of their trailers if they are currently on the first row. Second row rigs (which I am one) will sit at a higher location with the back row having a slightly larger setup. When completed we will walk in the CF gate turn to our left, go up the stairs and be at our location. The cost for this will be $2,000 per year. As I rig owner I'm glad where going to the new setup and it's not that I don't like what's there now but as one who is responsible for maintaining the current trailer, having to arrange for towing in and out plus leveling it with yearly maintenance will be a major relief. None owners don't understand the work that goes into the upkeep (for those who maintain their rigs) in order to have a safe and comfortable trailer. Obviously with the new setup that is eliminated . There's 86 rigs and I have no idea how many owners are glad where going to the new setup so I can only speak for myself but I'm thrilled.