Making a Murderer

Bill Derington

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Guilty or not, in the court of law you're innocent until proven guilty. The prosecution's job is to present a case that proves without a shadow of a doubt that Avery killed her. They did not even get close. The fact that Avery is going to spend life behind bars based on the prosecutions testimony is baffling. To the people saying he probably did it and should be behind bars, you're missing the ENTIRE point. The mere fact that some of this evidence had been planted should be enough for acquittal.

I posted that exact thing on here on page 1 of this thread. Do you think the show accurately or in context gave us as viewers enough to completely throw out the trial?
Of course it didn't, we don't have enough evidence or the context of the evidence to decide if he should be in jail.

I wrote that what we were shown provided reasonable doubt, but we have a responsibility to understand before jumping to conclusions to realize we didn't see or hear everything instead of operating off emotion.
 
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Bill Derington

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I wish people weren't so hung up on Dassey's confession. That obviously didn't happen, but people can't get past that scenario for whatever reason.

It's funny people say no one could sneak onto the property but think the same people no one could sneak past could just have someone who lives there shoot someone however many times, and burn them without any one noticing. Wouldn't someone have noticed the gun shot sounds? I mean 11 of them? Christ!

Then just a few hours later a damn bonfire? Yea that's not the least bit suspicious.

Again I do lean to Avery being guilty but whatever happened hasn't even been close to whats been explained.

Shooting a rifle in that location is not suspicious, especially a .22, it's barely louder than a nail gun.
Hearing rifle shots, and a bonfire is not suspicious at all.
 

Tinker Dan

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I am confident that the police planted something. Therefore, both deserve a new trial. Also, I think Dassey should just be pardoned. Avery likely did it, but at least deserves a new trial.
Mr Vandalay

I disagree with you a lot and naught for nothing.... I agree with you 100% on this.

Edit to add... my lowly opinion and five dollars will get any of us a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
 
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krazykats

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Shooting a rifle in that location is not suspicious, especially a .22, it's barely louder than a nail gun.
Hearing rifle shots, and a bonfire is not suspicious at all.

Well considering it was Halloween, and police showed up a week later I'm pretty sure if someone heard that they would have corroborated the story. Hell Scott "remembered" the fire as he drove down a parallel street to the salvage yard........don't you think since he was leaving to go hunting he would have heard the shots?

I'm on building no sites everyday and you can hear nail guns from quite a distance! They aren't quiet at all.

My thing is a trucker saw the Rav 4 leaving the property. And while she was there it seemed as if a lot of people witnessed her being there but those same people never heard a thing except for Brendan who heard her yelling for help in a coerced confession that almost everyone says is a joke but uses bits and pieces of as truth.

I've thrown out some stupid scenarios and admitted as much, I've also questioned the evidence. There is only people believing what they want to on this because the police never questioned anyone else. That is my issue. I don't care if you think Avery did it after all the trial and research you've done........the police don't get that excuse. They should not have jumped to the conclusion without eliminating other suspects first.

If it's so clear that Avery did it explain why Scott was noticeably a nervous wreck when he got word the police raided the property? And the same people who said that also said he was trying to sell a .22 all week long.

I mean while we want explanations for stuff how about that? That is just normal huh?
 

Bill Derington

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What Trucker saw the RAV 4 leave?

I have no idea why Scott was nervous, and where and how did you come to that conclusion?
Maybe he was dealing or had drugs.

There was a conversation that Steven had with his sister after being arrested that caught my attention during the program. She was telling him that Brendan had confessed and was in serious trouble, basically blaming Steven. Steven never questioned why he confessed, or how Brendan could just make up a story like many on here think. He simply said he shouldn't have talked.


I don't understand the whole idea they never looked at anyone else as a suspect.
Avery was the last person to see her, her phone activity stopped once she arrived there, her car was found there, her remains were found there, the .22 round with her DNA matching his gun was found there. With all that info it would be negligence if the police actually put much effort into another suspect.

I hear rifle and pistols being shot several times a week where I live. I never think twice about, it's not a big deal. Especially a .22 that doesn't have much report. You can put a bottle nipple with an X cut on it over the barrel and essentially silence them.
 

krazykats

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I posted several links throughout this thread anything I've mentioned as legit has a link that confirms it and it isn't from a Star Magazine BS news clip. But I will not spend the time again to find everything again to post it again.

Of your key pieces of evidence are he was the last person to see her.....based on what you DONT know. Her phone activity stopped while there after supposedly 2 hours( see posted phone bill showing she talked to someone at 4:35 for 13 seconds) and then no one called her until the next morning.

Again I'm not trying to prove Avery is innocent. I truly think he did it, but I think everyone on that property knows what happened and tried to help but it was in an effort to help him still get that lawsuit money. I think they all saw that as the big lottery for themselves and he used it to try to get them to help. The only one stupid enough to crack was Brendan and he did with something totally bogus and then tried to say he read it in kiss the girls.......yeah right! He didn't read ****, he was told a story from kiss the girls probably in case he was ever in a tough situation is what most likely happened, I guess.

My two things is clearly whatever happened or how it went down is probably nothing that has been said so far, and if Avery is guilty more than just Brendan helped IMHO.
 
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I know I'm late on this, but Dassey being represented by a public defender? They presented them as poor, but they had assets. All of those junk cars have value, if just scrap. I sold scrap in that time frame for ~$200/ton. Each vehicle is worth $300-400 wholesale. That's me walking in off of the street, not a volume salvage yard. Sell some inventory and get him represented.

Also, what's preventing any of those involved from taking a polygraph test. There's not a trial currently, but do they need Dr. Phil or Maury to step in?
 

Midway Cat

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I know I'm late on this, but Dassey being represented by a public defender? They presented them as poor, but they had assets. All of those junk cars have value, if just scrap. I sold scrap in that time frame for ~$200/ton. Each vehicle is worth $300-400 wholesale. That's me walking in off of the street, not a volume salvage yard. Sell some inventory and get him represented.

[laughing]

This is definitely the funniest thing that's been posted in this thread. I sure hope it was intentional.
 
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Bill Derington

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No. It was touch DNA, so it's basically impossible to determine its source.

Bill was just parroting the state's theory.

I'm not parroting anything, that's what it was. So the state planted the car, the remains, the camera and clothing material, the bullet, the keys, the DNA on the bullet? Is that what you're saying? Every piece of evidence and circumstance pointing to Avery was planted?
 

Bill Derington

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Krazy, that 13 sec call was unanswered, look at the bill, it's on page 19 of this thread. The last call she answered or made was at 2:45 pm, approx the time she arrived or shortly after she arrived at Avery's.
 

WonderBraa

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I haven't read this whole thread...in case I repeat anything. I think the documentary does a good job at changing the main question from:

Is he guilty or innocent?

To the question:

Is he guilty or was he setup?

I found myself really wanting to see Avery win the case and then I realized....nothing every proved he wasn't guilty, it was just highly speculated that the cops were corrupt and set him. It's entirely possible that he is guilty and was also set up.
 

Violent Cuts

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If one thing was planted then I question all of the evidence. It doesn't seem possible to me that after 5 searches of Avery's trailer they find nothing. But then Lenk suddenly finds keys. He wasn't even supposed to be there. In fact he had to be chaperoned by other officers plus he was being sued by the defendant. So we're supposed to believe that a team of officers can't find a set of keys in plain sight in a small trailer? And somehow Avery's DNA is on those keys despite (according to the prosecutor's theory) him only driving it within their own property (less than 5 minutes). Yet, her DNA is not on those keys, which she used every single day.

Secondly, they searched the garage 4 times and found nothing. They dig up the concrete. They use luminol and find nothing. Then we're supposed to believe that Lenk all of the sudden finds a bullet? A bullet that supposedly killed her, yet there is no blood. None of her DNA is found in the place where she supposedly died except on a bullet found by a cop on the 5th search that he was suing that (again) wasn't even supposed to be there.

Finally, we're supposed to believe that Avery shot her 11 times, and miraculously cleaned up the crime scene so well that there is none of her DNA anywhere. Not in his trailer. Not in the garage (other than the bullet), and no where else. But, he somehow leaves 1 bullet, the car keys in the open, and a bunch of his blood in the car? He scrubbed the garage to perfection, but didn't even clean up massive amounts of blood in her vehicle?

Here's what I think happened: Avery killed her but not according to the prosecutor's theory (from either case). Probably by the fire pit and then he destroyed all the evidence including her body. The police know he did it but can't find any evidence. They're 100% certain that he did it. Lenk and/or Colburn plant some of the evidence (end justifies the means). They aren't setting up an innocent man in their eyes. They're setting up a sick deranged murderer and ensuring he won't do this again. Oh, the same man who's also suing them.

The DA is stuck with that evidence so had to try and piece it together somehow, despite it not being how the actual murder happened.

My 2 cents. And I think they will both get another trial and likely freed.
 
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krazykats

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Ok I took that has she answered, maybe said I'll call you right back, and hung up.

I see that there are times for the calls the day after too now. Checked my bill and they don't show a time lapse unless I answer, weird. I guess if a voicemail is recorded that's it.

Just curious, do we know a voicemail was deleted? I remember it being an assumption because it was full but then later a few people said they were able to leave a voicemail which must have meant some were deleted.
 

Midway Cat

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I'm not parroting anything, that's what it was. So the state planted the car, the remains, the camera and clothing material, the bullet, the keys, the DNA on the bullet? Is that what you're saying? Every piece of evidence and circumstance pointing to Avery was planted?

You're a little touchy, Bill. Parroting is just a synonym for repeating, which is exactly what you did.

And, no, I've not said any of those things. Again, implicit in your question is the incorrect assumption that either Steven did it or that "the state planted the car, the remains, the camera, and clothing material, the bullet, the keys, the DNA on the bullet...."

There are more than two possible explanations. Just because someone doubts one part of the state's theory doesn't mean that they think the police were responsible for the murder and everything single related event that occurred thereafter.
 

bradyjames

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Here's the problem, you didn't see it in the documentary.
The idea that 300000 people have signed a petition on this guys behalf after watching a clearly skewed documentary is just absolutely absurd to me.
A trial is far more than a 10 hour show, what will happen is the guy will eventually get out of jail, no one else will be convicted because we just let the guy out who did it, Teresa Halbach won't have justice.
These far fetched theories are ridiculous, now the cops are planting Averys other DNA too. The truth is right there in front of your face, there's just too much pointing toward Avery.

You would have convicted him the first time too. Take a few plays off and let others post. We know your opinion ten times over.
 

Bill Derington

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I think they'll get another trial as well,
You would have convicted him the first time too. Take a few plays off and let others post. We know your opinion ten times over.

What makes you think that? He actually had an alibi with witnesses then, but then again the victim picked him out of the line up.
My belief that he did it is not simply because the police say so. It's because I can see the evidence and weigh it and the possibilities on each side.
You watched a slanted view of something, use that in your thinking process. That's not hard to understand, you should've took a few plays before you signed the petition.
 

Bill Derington

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You're a little touchy, Bill. Parroting is just a synonym for repeating, which is exactly what you did.

And, no, I've not said any of those things. Again, implicit in your question is the incorrect assumption that either Steven did it or that "the state planted the car, the remains, the camera, and clothing material, the bullet, the keys, the DNA on the bullet...."

There are more than two possible explanations. Just because someone doubts one part of the state's theory doesn't mean that they think the police were responsible for the murder and everything single related event that occurred thereafter.

What are some other plausible explanations?

Something that has evidence and actually ties someone else to Halbach in the timeframe.
 

mdlUK.1

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I don't know if she was or not, I do believe her or her body was in there in the RAV4.

Whether you believe Brendan's story or not, he and Avery were in there cleaning with bleach, gas and kerosene the night she disappeared. His own mother stated the same.

I don't have any earthly idea why Avery would lift the battery cables, but he did. His DNA that wasn't blood was right there where Brendan said he opened the hood and lifted cables.

Do you really think someone snagged her just as soon as she left Avery's, before she could make any calls. Murdered her, snuck into the Avery compound and hid the vehicle, planted Averys blood, scattered her bones? Do you understand how many things would have to fall in line perfectly for that to happen?

And if you believe the police planted the key then you must believe they killed her too. How else would they be in possession of the key?

How did Averys sweat DNA get on the hood?
I don't care if he had a freakin truck load of bleach, if she was stabbed and her throat slit in the trailer, there would be tons of blood evidence. You CAN'T clean it up completely.
 
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Bill Derington

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I don't care if he had a freakin truck load of bleach, if she was stabbed and her throat slit in the trailer, there would be tons of blood evidence. You CAN'T clean it up completely.

Not if an artery wasn't hit, and obviously they didn't hit one because they had to shoot her in the head.
 

Violent Cuts

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Had to shoot her in the head? Was that part of the trial? Are you suggesting he shot her 11 times in the head and there wasn't any blood?
 

krazykats

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Bill you've asked us for other theories......what is that you think happened? Then I will better be able to explain why or why not that did or did not happen. I can't keep explaining things for scenarios in not sure your believing or not believing.

You speak to what the evidence shows is that Avery did it. Which I understand that position but the evidence does not give you a murder scene. It doesn't answer how, it doesn't answer when, or where or why. What the evidence does is throw a guilty blanket over the salvage yard and basically says we have so much here that it happened sometime, somewhere, somehow on this property but that's all we got.......sorry folks we only shut down the yard for a week please don't expect too much more than that, but we got our suspect and he is did guilty and once we decide to show you evidence you'll see it that way. And if you don't along the way we will find more evidence months later to give you more reason to believe and if you don't then your crazy.

Meanwhile, anyone that may also be a suspect we will not investigate therefore there will be no evidence of anyone else except Avery so have fun proving us wrong.

That is seriously what has happened. Therefore all we can say if we believe there is a chance Avery didn't do it is say we don't have enough to point the finger elsewhere all we can do is say the evidence is suspect enough we wouldn't convict him.

So asking me who did it isn't fair, I didn't investigate it but I gurantee I've seen more than you have on what's available to the story.
 

Bill Derington

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Had to shoot her in the head? Was that part of the trial? Are you suggesting he shot her 11 times in the head and there wasn't any blood?

I don't think she was shot 11 times in the head, or shot in the house. But she was shot in the head, Brendan said they shot her in the head, more than once.
I believe they shot her in the garage.
 

Violent Cuts

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I don't think she was shot 11 times in the head, or shot in the house. But she was shot in the head, Brendan said they shot her in the head, more than once.
I believe they shot her in the garage.

The prosecution claimed she was shot 11 times. Brendan Dassey claimed she was bound, raped, her throat slit, then shot. So, you're taking bits and pieces of each person's claims and making your own story? If all of this is true, why is there blood in the car? And no blood anywhere else?
 

krazykats

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Yea, I'm sorry but I watched the Dassey confession and if that is your basis of what did or didn't happen in any aspect what so ever then shame on you. Seriously! No part of that is credible at all, NONE, 0%.

It to each their own I still can see that Avery did it.
 

Bill Derington

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Bill you've asked us for other theories......what is that you think happened? Then I will better be able to explain why or why not that did or did not happen. I can't keep explaining things for scenarios in not sure your believing or not believing.

You speak to what the evidence shows is that Avery did it. Which I understand that position but the evidence does not give you a murder scene. It doesn't answer how, it doesn't answer when, or where or why. What the evidence does is throw a guilty blanket over the salvage yard and basically says we have so much here that it happened sometime, somewhere, somehow on this property but that's all we got.......sorry folks we only shut down the yard for a week please don't expect too much more than that, but we got our suspect and he is did guilty and once we decide to show you evidence you'll see it that way. And if you don't along the way we will find more evidence months later to give you more reason to believe and if you don't then your crazy.

Meanwhile, anyone that may also be a suspect we will not investigate therefore there will be no evidence of anyone else except Avery so have fun proving us wrong.

That is seriously what has happened. Therefore all we can say if we believe there is a chance Avery didn't do it is say we don't have enough to point the finger elsewhere all we can do is say the evidence is suspect enough we wouldn't convict him.

So asking me who did it isn't fair, I didn't investigate it but I gurantee I've seen more than you have on what's available to the story.

Krazy, you're emotionally invested, you have no idea how much I've seen and you're at the point where you're blind to anything other than what you want to see.
You don't know who else the police investigated, you know what the documentary showed and what internet sites that Agee with you say.
How do you think the police investigate? The car was found on Averys property, up to that point she was missing. At that point who do you think the police should key in on? The family would be the logical choice right? Ok, she came to see Steven we know that, let's check her phone records, the outgoing calls stop approx the time she gets to Averys.
Now we start checking out the family, everyone but Steven is accounted for, so that puts them on the back burner.
Now we find bones, clothing and camera in fire pit along with her vehicle.

Why on Earth at this point would you seriously investigate anyone else at this point?

Maybe in your mind they should've looked at the ex more, ok, but there is absolutely nothing linking him to the murder other than he was her ex.
Brendan's brother and stepdad, they have alibi's. The only thing suspicious is that they are each other's alibi. But that's only because you're looking for anyone but Steven to be the murderer. There is nothing other than that hinting at them being involved, they wrrent obsessed with Halbach, Avery was.

Avery had no defense Krazy, none. Everything pointed to him, do his defense used the only thing they could go with, just like the OJ case. It worked for OJ, it didn't for Avery.

In my opinion he'll either get a new trial and get acquitted or get the same offer WM3 received.
 

Bill Derington

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The prosecution claimed she was shot 11 times. Brendan Dassey claimed she was bound, raped, her throat slit, then shot. So, you're taking bits and pieces of each person's claims and making your own story? If all of this is true, why is there blood in the car? And no blood anywhere else?

No I'm not, I'm saying she was shot in the head in the garage. She was shot in the head, the fragments clearly show that.

They killed her and threw her in the back of the RAV 4. Hair brushes on the back, they clean up blood in garage, it's not hard to picture.
 

Bill Derington

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Yea, I'm sorry but I watched the Dassey confession and if that is your basis of what did or didn't happen in any aspect what so ever then shame on you. Seriously! No part of that is credible at all, NONE, 0%.

It to each their own I still can see that Avery did it.

Krazy, I felt bad for Brendan as well, but to say none of what he said is credible when he knew specifics that only someone who had seen the crime scene would know is reckless.
 

krazykats

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Bill I'm not emotionally invested, and from the links I've posted which were all fact based neutral journals or credible sources like the one I linked that proved the jurors were suspect. You have to understand I'm not looking for Avery to be innocent, and to be 100% honest I look for things that prove Avery is guilty more than anything.

I do not trust the evidence, and while I understand and to a degree I agree with you about Dassey I'm not picking and choosing what's correct or not based on evidence that points to Avery being guilty that you want to believe proves him guilty. I've given reasons for why I do not believe certain things about certain evidence.

I've even repeated myself that I think Avery did it but the whole family helped him cover it up but only Brendan cracked. I think that is what led to Bobby/Scott tying each other together and Brendan's mom too as far as hospital etc. I think Brendan had something they coached him on too in a lie which is why he and the girl admitted it and then denied it and then admitted it. I truly believe if your looking at with an open mind and reading the evidence and reading between the lines on statements and evidence this makes a lot more sense than saying Avery did it and the evidence points to him and Brendan told anything truthful.

You want to believe Avery is guilty so Brendan saying they shot her in the garage(where a bullet was planted) and he tore out the battery cables(where they found his DNA on the latch under the hood) but that's it as far as anything Brendan said that could be seen as believable and those two bits were 100% led by investigators in that confession.
 

420grover

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No I'm not, I'm saying she was shot in the head in the garage. She was shot in the head, the fragments clearly show that.

They killed her and threw her in the back of the RAV 4. Hair brushes on the back, they clean up blood in garage, it's not hard to picture.
Where's the blood?
 

Violent Cuts

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No I'm not, I'm saying she was shot in the head in the garage. She was shot in the head, the fragments clearly show that.

They killed her and threw her in the back of the RAV 4. Hair brushes on the back, they clean up blood in garage, it's not hard to picture.

So they were smart enough to only shoot her in the head and smart enough to somehow completely remove every drop of blood in the garage but didn't remove any from the car. And they're stupid enough to drive her 200 feet away and then carry her right back to where they killed her? And you pick and choose what you believe from Brendan? I mean come on, that's pretty ludicrous.
 

krazykats

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Did he guess it? Yes actually he was told what they thought, then asked, and asked again, and again and finally in most cases Brendan guessed right.

Now I will say I do think he may have been honest on some of it but you can not pick and choose because he isnt credible at all and that confession should be tossed out.