Making a Murderer

anthonys735

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Steve Romines is the man. Love that guy. He's one of, if not the best out there.

Definitely my first call if I'm ever in a Steven Avery situation.

In the podcast Romines goes through the demographic he's looking for when building a jury for a trial like Avery's. Blatantly said, "young black African Americans because they don't trust the government and for good reason."

He wouldn't want people that are predisposed to throw someone in jail like current government employees or old retirees, which are coincidentally the most common jurors because they can afford to be there.

Funny thinking @wildcatchad, the super-lib, actually is showing his true colors here. Only thing I could think of while Romines was running through the type of people it would take to think he is absolutely guilty. WCC, Bill D and Dr Bob... so much in common.
 

drxman1

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Funny thinking @wildcatchad, the super-lib, actually is showing his true colors here. Only thing I could think of while Romines was running through the type of people it would take to think he is absolutely guilty. WCC, Bill D and Dr Bob... so much in common.

I do think he is guilty. I never said he was absolutely guilty.
 

anthonys735

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That's ok. WCC, Dr Handicap Shower and Bill D. 3 peas in pod.

Guns, titties, fast cars, fast women, more guns, NRA, conservative beliefs, small government, police state. Cornerstones to their morals.
 

drxman1

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I have never advocated for a police state. Now you're just being ridiculous.
 
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Here is a pic of the "leg irons" that Steve bought three weeks before the murder. Looks like something from Adam & Eve or Spencer's, not the medieval contraptions that Kratz eludes to. I have my doubts that these would be able to restrain anyone who seriously wanted to get out of them. Although it's pretty obvious nothing happened in Steve's bedroom anyway. But still......"leg irons".

 

BBdK

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^ exactly.

Regardless, no DNA or Blood in that mess of a room tells you that absolutely did NOT happen. Period.

How anyone can think otherwise is unbelievable to me.
 
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anthonys735

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Lol, those are the shackles? Just like Avery said, bought them at the adult store to spice up things with Jody. Those little cheap things aren't holding a hostage while they watch tv and play games in a different room.

The bedroom rape theory is absurd. For numerous reasons.
 
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anthonys735

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Not to Chad!!! He raped her, and that's a fact, Jack!
Yep. If you take THAT part out the motive seems a lot more blurry.

Also, I told you all to pump the breaks on all the missing info b/c it was coming straight from that creep Katz. That I'd like to see it in context it was presented. She was shot 11 times from what I remember, where was this? That's too much blood to clean up in a place that dirty. Stabbed in the bedroom? No. Key miraculously found in the bed room after 7 searches without any of her DNA? no. Bullet miraculously found 4 months later with none of her blood in sight? No.

After all the extra info has been presented and reviewed, I'm no more convinced either way than when I finished. I think I said 60/40 he did it. I'm still there.
 
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GLR5555

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Yep. If you take THAT part out the motive seems a lot more blurry.

Also, I told you all to pump the breaks on all the missing info b/c it was coming straight from that creep Katz. That I'd like to see it in context it was presented. She was shot 11 times from what I remember, where was this? That's too much blood to clean up in a place that dirty. Stabbed in the bedroom? No. Key miraculously found in the bed room after 7 searches without any of her DNA? no. Bullet miraculously found 4 months later with none of her blood in sight? No.

After all the extra info has been presented and reviewed, I'm no more convinced either way than when I finished. I think I said 60/40 he did it. I'm still there.

This is hard to come to grips with. That number was referenced to the number of casings found in the garage. Not to mention all the ones outside the garage on the ground. However, only one spent bullet was ever recovered. This means they all went straight through her body or some stayed inside her. Either way, wouldn't there be more bullets in the "burn pit" or potentially not found. If the State argues that Steve's masterful clean up job removed all the blood and DNA, but forgot to pick up the shells and left one of the spent bullets behind. That's quite suspicious.
 

drxman1

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If he burned her body to only bone fragments remaining, its impossible to know how many times she was actually shot.

Those leg shackles do not look rape worthy. They must not have let Brendan have any pink markers for his drawing. Definetely pokes holes in Brendan's "confession." Also have to seriously question why that wasn't made a bigger deal out of in the documentary. That's huge for Avery/Brendan.

I have serious doubts she was killed in the trailor or garage. The blood stains in the car with "transfer" marks are telling that "somebody" transported her body. Still doesn't mean he didn't kill her.
 
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GLR5555

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If he burned her body to only bone fragments remaining, its impossible to know how many times she was actually shot.

Those leg shackles do not look rape worthy. They must not have let Brendan have any pink markers for his drawing. Definetely pokes holes in Brendan's "confession." Also have to seriously question why that wasn't made a bigger deal out of in the documentary. That's huge for Avery/Brendan.

I have serious doubts she was killed in the trailor or garage. Still doesn't mean he didn't kill her. The blood stains in the car with "transfer" marks are telling that "somebody" transported her.

Why would he need to put her in her car to move her to the backyard? Makes no sense. Like you said, she was killed elsewhere.
 
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wcc31

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Funny thinking @wildcatchad, the super-lib, actually is showing his true colors here. Only thing I could think of while Romines was running through the type of people it would take to think he is absolutely guilty. WCC, Bill D and Dr Bob... so much in common.

Haven't listened to Matt's podcast yet, but I will. Just because I am a liberal doesn't mean I don't want justice for a murder victim. That's pretty silly. I'm case-by-case. I think Brendan Dassey and the West Memphis 3 were railroaded. I think Steven Avery was guilty.

With that said, I get why some couldn't convict and given a jury-like atmosphere with conversation, I could be swayed to reasonable doubt on Avery. I could not be swayed to convict Dassey- no way, no how.

I just get annoyed by internet mob outrage and those drama queens who will throw out the most ridiculous conspiracy theories (see some of the guys in here) but so easily dismiss evidence linking Avery. Frankly, I don't think the police could have done ALL of that to frame the guy. I get specific doubts (the key, the blood even), but not all the evidence against him in its entirely.

And don't put Bill D with me. That guy has been completely reasonable. I have gotten on some specific guys in here and been a dick about it at times, but Bill has given his opinions in a mature, measured manner. Having beef with him is pretty lame.
 

anthonys735

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My theory has always been she was killed and burned out at the quarry. Explains the transportation. No reason to think even if he killed her that he burned her body that day. Could have been killed, put in the car, left in there overnight and dispatched the following day or days.

I believe the bone expert suggested at least 11 bullet wounds.

The phone calls were the only thing that leaves questions from the extra evidence. Why use *67 and then call after and use his normal number. I don't think Strang had much to argue there. That's suspicious. Not murderous but suspicious. Granted if she left that junkyard then maybe he was calling for a follow up or something. Could that have been the deleted voicemail? Did the brother and bf also help with the cover up by deleting a possible vmail that helped Avery. I assume Avery would have mentioned that he left her voicemail if that was the case.
 
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MacCard

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After reading through all the evidence that was "left out" of the documentary, and reconciling them with these scary pink leg shackles, I'm more convinced he didn't do it. Think about it for a minute. These leg shackles were recently presented by Kratz as being part of the "rest of the story" that we didn't see. Only when we actually see them, we see how ridiculous it is to call these anything more than sex toys. He talks about sweat DNA, although the DNA was apparently only proven to be non-blood. The idea that DNA came from sweat appears to be no more than his personal theory (per Strang). So when he says it couldn't have been planted or transferred because it's sweat, that's doesn't appear to be true.

There's really nothing out there to show that he did it in any way close to how the prosecution says he did. Maybe there's even more out there that we don't know, or he's a diabolical genius who did a masterful cleanup job. But all the inconsistencies (what's that mean?) and general shadiness are mind boggling. I think some people, myself included, want to say it's closer to 50/50 because we think we're smarter and we don't want to be lumped in with all those idiots calling for a presidential pardon. But when you step back, it doesn't really even seem to be close to 50/50, even when considering the omitted evidence.
 

drxman1

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My theory has always been she was killed and burned out at the quarry. Explains the transportation. No reason to think even if he killed her that he burned her body that day. Could have been killed, put in the car, left in there overnight and dispatched the following day or days.

I believe the bone expert suggested at least 11 bullet wounds.

The phone calls were the only thing that leaves questions from the extra evidence. Why use *67 and then call after and use his normal number. I don't think Strang had much to argue there. That's suspicious. Not murderous but suspicious. Granted if she left that junkyard then maybe he was calling for a follow up or something. Could that have been the deleted voicemail? Did the brother and bf also help with the cover up by deleting a possible vmail that helped Avery. I assume Avery would have mentioned that he left her voicemail if that was the case.

Don't the phone records usually show the time of the call?

I mean, did she answer his *67 calls? Why does he call her twice, especially if he's trying to trick her into coming to his place. Makes no sense. Did she leave and then he calls her trying to get her to come back or meet him somewhere else? This is confusing to me. Maybe a good reason he didn't go on the stand.

As for the bonfire, on the day of the murder. How long had he been planning this? Just a random thing or had he been planning it for days...It was Halloween.
 

anthonys735

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With that said, I get why some couldn't convict and given a jury-like atmosphere with conversation, I could be swayed to reasonable doubt on Avery. I could not be swayed to convict Dassey- no way, no how.
If you could be swayed that's already reasonable doubt.
 
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MacCard

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My theory has always been she was killed and burned out at the quarry. Explains the transportation. No reason to think even if he killed her that he burned her body that day. Could have been killed, put in the car, left in there overnight and dispatched the following day or days.

I believe the bone expert suggested at least 11 bullet wounds.

The phone calls were the only thing that leaves questions from the extra evidence. Why use *67 and then call after and use his normal number. I don't think Strang had much to argue there. That's suspicious. Not murderous but suspicious. Granted if she left that junkyard then maybe he was calling for a follow up or something. Could that have been the deleted voicemail? Did the brother and bf also help with the cover up by deleting a possible vmail that helped Avery. I assume Avery would have mentioned that he left her voicemail if that was the case.

I think she was burned there too, but it doesn't really explain why the bones were then transported to the fire pit. Why bring parts of bones and other evidence close to your home?

I could be wrong, but I think the number 11 represented the shell casings found in the garage. I don't think there was enough bone to show 11 injuries, just the one. I'm definitely not 100% on that though.

I agree on the phone calls. It's really the one thing out there that can't be adequately explained. Maybe he was just a creep though. I mean, look at his leg shackles.
 

wcc31

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So, it's foolish to take the DA's word on the sweat, but it's cool to take the defense's? OK.
 

BBdK

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Lol, yeah the DA/Cops have definitely shown they deserve to be trusted in this case.

Especially after the stunt they pulled with Brendan/Len -- that should give anyone reason to question pretty much ANYTHING.


Chad, the Ken Kratz champion. Typical.
 
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wildcatadam6

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I'm guessing voicemails at the time actually did "go away forever"? I was under the assumption that those were like emails...you could delete them, but there's some type of "fingerprint" left that a digital forensics team could uncover and recover.

Isn't that how VMs are these days?
 

MacCard

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So, it's foolish to take the DA's word on the sweat, but it's cool to take the defense's? OK.

I guess I just assumed it would be in the court record if it was an actual thing and the defense wouldn't be able to dispute that it was sweat. OK?

Does sweat even have a different DNA profile that makes it distinguishable from other DNA? Like a mouth swab or skin cells?
 

larry the cable guy

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I think she was burned there too, but it doesn't really explain why the bones were then transported to the fire pit. Why bring parts of bones and other evidence close to your home?

I could be wrong, but I think the number 11 represented the shell casings found in the garage. I don't think there was enough bone to show 11 injuries, just the one. I'm definitely not 100% on that though.

I agree on the phone calls. It's really the one thing out there that can't be adequately explained. Maybe he was just a creep though. I mean, look at his leg shackles.


If kinky pink shackles make you a murderer then most people are in trouble.
 

drxman1

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I guess I just assumed it would be in the court record if it was an actual thing and the defense wouldn't be able to dispute that it was sweat. OK?

Does sweat even have a different DNA profile that makes it distinguishable from other DNA?

With sweat the DNA is coming from epithelial skin cells, versus red blood cells in blood.
 

anthonys735

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So, it's foolish to take the DA's word on the sweat, but it's cool to take the defense's? OK.
No, it's cool to hear it in the context it was argued. All we heard for a week is, "what about the sweat DNA, that's so damning they didn't show it, couldn't be planted, blahblahblah."

When that may not be the case. Still more of his DNA on the car but it's certainly not as strong as he made it sound. Like most of these thngs the middle is the truth.
 

MacCard

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With sweat the DNA is coming from epithelial skin cells, versus red blood cells in blood.

I get that it's distinguishable from blood DNA. Can you tell DNA came from sweat though versus spit, hair, skin, mucus, ****, whatever?
 

anthonys735

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We have weird people call in all sorts of strange ways on a daily basis requesting specific people. Ts. Very very common.
 

drxman1

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I get that it's distinguishable from blood DNA. Can you tell DNA came from sweat though versus spit, hair, skin, mucus, ****, whatever?

The source would have characteristic traits to the type of cells (body parts) it came from. ***** would have sperm. Hair would be, well hair.
 
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And if it wasn't sweat as Strang contends, the obvious next thought would be skin cells from touching and opening the hood of the car. However, there weren't ANY of Steven's fingerprints found on or in the car. Maybe he was wearing gloves, but if so then how did his DNA/skin cells get on the hood latch? It just doesn't make sense that his DNA would be on the latch from presumably touching it, but no finger prints. The other option would be that this evidence was planted also, in the same manner that Steven's DNA was found on the key. Rubbing a worn garment of clothing onto the key/hood latch would easily transfer skin cells.
 
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Midway Cat

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So, it's foolish to take the DA's word on the sweat, but it's cool to take the defense's? OK.

No. Remember that the burden is on the state. It doesn't really matter if you accept the defense's version, but you have to be convinced of the state's theory beyond a reasonable doubt.

And I don't think anyone here actually believes the story that the prosecutor presented about the sexual assault, the knifing in the house, the shooting in the garage, etc. If the jury was actually doing its job, those inconsistencies should have been a huge problem for the state.

As for this kind of evidence, though, it really is foolish to accept the DA's theory that the DNA came from sweat because it's basically impossible to prove the actual source of so-called "touch DNA." It could come from any number of sources other than Steven actually touching or dropping sweat on that area.

That kind of proof is like some of the other types of pseudo-scientific evidence that I listed way back in this thread. Similar to that miraculous FBI blood test, touch DNA evidence is highly unreliable, and some courts have entirely excluded it from trials for that very reason.

On a somewhat related note, Romines talks about the FBI's track record of presenting false scientific evidence over the course of the last twenty years. Matt seemed shocked, and Romines told him to look it up. I suspect that Steve didn't want to draw attention to the fact that he represented Shane Ragland after his conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. In that case, the FBI's ballistics expert admitted that the prior testimony about Shane's rifle and ammunition was false, and she ended up going to prison for perjury.

He's also referencing the FBI's recent admission that expert testimony offered about hair evidence over a period of decades has been flawed, unreliable, and inaccurate. Here's a link if anyone is interested:

FBI Admits Flaws in Hair Analysis Over Decades - Washington Post, April 18, 2015

Always remember--Everyone doubts the defendant because he "has a reason to lie," but the people on the other side have all kinds of incentives to lie as well. It's never prudent to accept the government's assertions about the significance of a particular piece of evidence without actually considering how they got it, who was responsible for securing it, how reliable their testing is, who conducted the tests, etc.

Believe me--The government regularly pushes the envelope on these kinds of issues even more so than the defense.
 

MacCard

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The source would have characteristic traits to the type of cells (body parts) it came from. ***** would have sperm. Hair would be, well hair.

But in general, you can't distinguish sweat from saliva or some kind of general DNA swab? My point is that Kratz made it sound like the DNA was definitely sweat and the implication was unless the police had a vial of his sweat, they couldn't have planted it or accidentally transferred it. It doesn't sound like that's accurate, and the whole sweat thing is a bit of a red herring.
 

drxman1

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Everyone in this thread has *67 numerous times in their lives. :100points:

How many of us have been tried for Murder 1
But in general, you can't distinguish sweat from saliva or some kind of general DNA swab? My point is that Kratz made it sound like the DNA was definitely sweat and the implication was unless the police had a vial of his sweat, they couldn't have planted it or accidentally transferred it. It doesn't sound like that's accurate, and the whole sweat thing is a bit of a red herring.

Sweat and saliva themselves do not contain nucleated cells, so the DNA has to come from either skin cells or the oral cavity.

Maybe this will help explain.

https://www.abacusdiagnostics.com/Modern_Methods_of_Collection.pdf