Mark Stoops still on track

[LowCountryCat]

You may be using all of those things, but context eludes you. Every school in the country is trying to improve recruiting and the reality for Kentucky is that getting to the middle of the pack in the SEC is very unlikely. Considering things like tradition, recent success and in-state talent, what are the six or seven schools in the SEC that UK should consistently our recruit? It is a pretty tough list to create. Similarly, you degrade lesser bowl games and have classified the Music City Bowl as irrelevant while trumpeting the work James Franklin in other threads. Independently the posts are fine, but when considering that the pinnacle James Franklin's career is winning the Music City Bowl (which you deem irrelevant) one or both of your posts lose validity. Even when you point Franklin's SEC record as evidence of the job he did it must be considered that Tenn, Fl, Miss and even UK were putting out some of their worst teams in the last decade at that time. Franklin still lost conference games by 3, 4, 5, 7 touchdowns and only beat one ranked team. Your posts continue to get "mischaracterized" because nothing in this sport happens in a vacuum. Sure we want to recruit better and have top notch coaching, but even Urban Meyer and Nick Saban are trying to accomplish the same things. It is not easy to accomplish anywhere, particularly from where Mark Stoops started.

You're placing far more emphasis on my post about Franklin than I did. That would be known as a straw man. I mentioned Franklin to rebut the specious notion that it always takes 5-90 years to build a program. That said, my lack of excitement about going to the MCB is appropriate. We've been there several times and only the Gator Bowl during Tim Couch's time was a departure. I'd be more satisfied going to the MCB if we had also beaten Florida OR Tennessee in any of those seasons.

I get that everybody wants to go to a bowl. And it is an achievement, to a small extent. But I'm tired of being a joke in the SEC. And everytime we get boatraced by Tennessee, Florida, and MSU I'm reminded of what a joke we are in this conference. Nobody fears us. They laugh in their locker rooms. Even Western laughs at us. No other schools give a rat's arse that we went to the Marigold Garden Bowl or whatever, they still crushed us in our own stadium. So, improving recruiting nationally will help solidify the OOC cupcake wins, but to become a respected program we need at least 4 more wins, and those are in conference. And I will remind you, since you are fussing about CONTEXT, that the last time we went 4-4 was under Papa Brooks, and that was the ONLY time he led us to that record.

Now, to answer your other point - who are we going to out recruit? Isn't that Stoops' job? Why else pay him $3.25 million a year through 2019? Is he just a placeholder? If you really believe that we are going to be good in his 5th year, tell me why. Explain to me how the 13th, 9th, and 13th recruiting classes are going to move us up the chain. Explain to me what Stoops has done to distinguish himself as the kind of coach who does 'more with less' and 'coaches 'em up.'

 

[308955]

He may or may not be the coach to do it, but is it fair to make that determination now? If you want count the first class against him, I understand that. I, however, believe it was a miracle he got anyone to come to UK that February. As such, his recruiting classes are RS freshmen and sophomores. If you want to know whether he is a good enough coach to compete at the current level of recruiting shouldn't we at least see what the team looks like when his recruits are seniors? Until then, I do not know whether he can coach well enough to win with this level of recruiting and, frankly, neither do you. It may be that he cannot, but he may. You never answered the question regarding who he should out recruit. Of course it is part of his job, as it is every other head coach in the conference. Yet again, saying that it is his job ignores context. Unfortunately, there are only two or three schools in the conference right now that UK can consistently hope to out recruit. History bears that out, tradition, proximity to top notch recruits, label of a basketball school, i.e. I am not implying that there is no hope that these can eventually be overcome, but it is completely unreasonable to expect any more from recruiting than has been delivered. Even if you are right, what is the answer? Get rid of him now? Who is going to touch this job with that kind of impatience?

 

[STUCKNBIG10]

Losing brings out the worst in people, and it brings out the ridiculous as well. I'm surprised that Stoops is getting hammered to the extend that he is. I think people have forgotten where this program was when Mitch Barnhart pulled the plug on Joker Phillips. It's unfortunate. Looking at the Stoops timeline combined with what he's accomplished off the field, I have no idea why people aren't beyond excited to have him here (and frankly, I think a majority still are).

RECRUITING (rivals rankings)
1st class (29th)...I think any reasonable person would agree that Stoops and staff had precious little time to get much done. The result...a top 30 class. You could argue that no staff anywhere did a better job in Dec and Jan prior to signing day.
2nd class ((17th)...the best class in UK history. Ideally, these players would be redshirt freshman this year.
3rd class (35th)....a very solid class...UK only brought in 21 players.
4th class (currently 17th)....this class includes THREE 4-star offensive lineman.
Overall...I'd imagine his grade would be an A or high B with recruiting. Most important to remember, that first class was a minor miracle. The last two classes are truly Stoops' first two classes. Overall, these four classes represent the best four year "run" in my lifetime.

ON THE FIELD
2013: 2 wins
2014: 5 wins
2015: probably 6 or more wins
I know the "all that matters is the last game" mentality permeates sports these days, but losing big twice doesn't mean UK is doomed to finish that way. Getting absolutely pummeled isn't unique to Kentucky. Hell, even Oregon lost a home game by almost 50 this year. Anyway, big picture, Stoops has done exactly what we had hoped he would. UK has gotten better each year. IMO, it's important to appreciate that and to acknowledge it. No, he isn't contending for a league title. Then again, nobody thought he would be.

BLOWOUT LOSSES
One general comment a lot of fans make goes something like this....I can handle losing, but we should be competitive every time out. Really? With a roster that isn't even remotely complete? And it's tough for just about all schools to avoid getting pounded on occasion. UK fans are pissed because Stoops (with an inadequate roster) just got thumped back-to-back. Imagine how Georgia fans felt after a non-competitive loss to the Gators. Nebraska fans just watched PURDUE score 55 on the Huskers.

BOTTOM LINE
I think Stoops is right where he should be. That doesn't mean the staff can't do a better job (we've talked about the confused defense, eight men to return a punt, etc...), but don't forget the absolute disaster he inherited. In year two, he was a dropped INT at U of L away from going to a bowl game. This year, I think he'll win enough games to qualify for the postseason. Facilities are going to be amazing beginning next summer. Recruiting continues to be improved. UK has some very good young talent. Unfortunately, the "process" (yeah, I know, people that word) is just lengthy and difficult. With that being said, I like where the program is compared to 2012, and I see no reason to anticipate anything but continued improvement.

GBB!!!

Good write-up and summary. I agree. My only disappointment has been UK's perpetual inability to close the deal against marquee opponents (a win over either AU or UF would have been huge) and UK's inability to take advantage of a weakened SEC East when every other program has (Vandy, USC, and Mizzou).

 

[UK Cats Rock]

Just like everybody - I want to see Kentucky get higher recruiting rankings in the SEC. A simple context shows just how difficult that is. Our national recruiting ranking has shot straight up with 35th being the worst. Yet, we still are in the lower tier of the SEC. Basically, our national ranking has dramatically improved and our SEC ranking has not. So what do I take from that?

Our rank in the SEC might not be changing, but the talent gap is. No way we can expect to recruit that well just yet. Our hope is that Stoops improves things, wins more games, and bigger and better recruits start to come and that rank rises.

With the talent gap at least closing some, that gives us a better chance to do just that (win more games and continue to build recruiting). We've all endured a lot by following UK football and again, we have to "wait." At least this time, it seems like we're headed somewhere positive.

Yeah, we took a butt whipping from UT and MSU; but that's it. I remember getting beat 77-7 by Florida. The last two years, we've been "right there." The UK fan's hope is that we can finally start making the plays to win those big games. Stoops at least has given us the chance.

And even when we DO start recruiting that well, we then have to build quality depth with that type of talent to maintain and make the move up the SEC ladder. That's going to take a heck of a lot longer than 2 1/2 seasons. Even when Stoops first class is seniors, the depth still might need some work.

So we sit back and wait. Many of us have done that for many years, and right now, it appears to be our only choice as we continue to yell at the television like we always do.

I feel there IS a light at the end of the tunnel with Stoops and once he gaines more experience, I think better days are ahead. And I am thankful that even in his third year, we still have a chance at a bowl. Considering we haven't been to one in half a decade, I won't complain which one if we qualify.

Go Big Blue!!!!!

 

[Deeeefense]

You get top 25 classes first. You develop them into 8 win teams, you then parlay that into upgrading your recruiting to top 20-15 maybe even getting a home run top 10 class occasionally a few years down the road.

You don't go from the bottom rung of the ladder to the top rung in one step. Progress comes in steps.

 

[LowCountryCat]

He may or may not be the coach to do it, but is it fair to make that determination now? If you want count the first class against him, I understand that. I, however, believe it was a miracle he got anyone to come to UK that February. As such, his recruiting classes are RS freshmen and sophomores. If you want to know whether he is a good enough coach to compete at the current level of recruiting shouldn't we at least see what the team looks like when his recruits are seniors? Until then, I do not know whether he can coach well enough to win with this level of recruiting and, frankly, neither do you. It may be that he cannot, but he may. You never answered the question regarding who he should out recruit. Of course it is part of his job, as it is every other head coach in the conference. Yet again, saying that it is his job ignores context. Unfortunately, there are only two or three schools in the conference right now that UK can consistently hope to out recruit. History bears that out, tradition, proximity to top notch recruits, label of a basketball school, i.e. I am not implying that there is no hope that these can eventually be overcome, but it is completely unreasonable to expect any more from recruiting than has been delivered. Even if you are right, what is the answer? Get rid of him now? Who is going to touch this job with that kind of impatience?

So what's the cutoff? How many years before you say, "Okay he's not going to get it done." You're saying I'm too impatient, I'm saying you're ignoring the signs. I knew Joker was the wrong pick for HC before he even took over. I caught a lot of heat but I was right. I'm not 100% convinced the Stoops experiment is a failure, because he has a fire that Joker didn't have. He actually hates to lose. But he's not trending up in my view. If he brings in some better classes or starts outcoaching some guys, then I may change my mind.

As far as outrecruiting, he already outrecruits Vandy. So we should beat them this season. If we don't, what will you say? I also think he should outrecruit South Carolina, Arkansas, and MSU. Maybe Ole Miss. I hope you're not arguing that he shouldn't out recruit anybody. If you are happy with #11 class in conference at best, prepare for 7-5 to be our ceiling.

 

[JHB4UK]

We may well get to a bowl game this year, but we're just not very good right now. We're demonstratively worse than last year against a much easier schedule.

Doesn't mean Stoops isn't the guy. But it's certainly concerning.

Don't think that is a fair apples/oranges comparison. We still have a 'bunny' game on the schedule, and Vandy, and UL - games and stats which are included in the '14 figures.

 

[308955]

I very well could be ignoring some of the signs, but I do not believe the cutoff for the mess that Stoops inherited should be while his only two full recruiting classes are rs freshmen and sophomores (As noted in another thread, we are all but devoid of Jr and Sr talent). Particularly considering that, while recruiting isn't ideal, it has improved drastically from the last two years of Joker's tenure and there is a good chance that the win total will have increased every year. The program was in a state that it could not win a conference game and lost ooc games to teams from smaller conferences. Progress is being made. Will I be disappointed if we lose to Vanderbilt? Of course I will. Will I be ready to fire Stoops? No. Alternatively, what if we win out? Is Stoops certain to be successful in the long term? Nah. I worked under a great coach for a long time that always reminded me that we were never as good as we thought we were after a win and never as bad as we thought we were after a loss. UK is coming off two trips to the woodshed that are overshadowing some of the positive things that have happened to the program in the past few years. We just disagree about whether things are moving in the right direction or the wrong direction...which is probably pretty common within fan bases of teams that are staring at a record somewhere between 5-7 and 7-5.

 

[KYJerry]

I think we would all agree that Spurrier is a hell of a coach and it took him 5 years to start rolling at SC. Thinking that we should be beating the premier football schools in the country in year 3 with what Stoops inherited is delusional.

 

[MountainDoc]

Faaaaar stoops and faaaaar Mitch. Maybe faaaar cal too I mean he doesn't win it all every year with that talent he recruits right? Can't believe this is a topic in our fan base is going over in such detail. Are we satisfied with losing no. But give the man time to get his guys experienced then see where you are. Prime, you can't assess the situation until the season is complete anyway. We could finish with three wins a row, for that matter we could win out. Chill, step away from the computer, and cheer for the team, you'll find life's more enjoyable. Posts about how stoops isn't the guy at this point make our fan base look delusional and petty. As I've said 100s of times before this is a PROCESS and there's going to be peaks and valleys. Gotta ride it out though. Asking for changes related to defense, play calling, or wanting to see a true identity for the team is acceptable at this point. That conversation is worthy of exploring. But trying to state that stoops isn't the guy and essentially speaking as though he needs to be cut loose is crazy.

 

[BBBLazing]

I think we would all agree that Spurrier is a hell of a coach and it took him 5 years to start rolling at SC. Thinking that we should be beating the premier football schools in the country in year 3 with what Stoops inherited is delusional.

Thinking we should have beaten Auburn is not delusional. Thinking we should have played better against EKU is not delusional. Thinking our receivers should not drop passes that hit them in the hands is not delusional. Thinking that we should have 11 men playing defense is not delusional. I do not think we should get rid of Coach Stoops. I agree that he deserves at least 5 years. But I disagree with everyone that compares UK to any other school that is rebuilding. We have been rebuilding since the 60s. The faces in the helmets and the names on the backs are all that seem to change.

 

[TJS4UK]

Explain to me how the 13th, 9th, and 13th recruiting classes are going to move us up the chain.

First, recruiting rankings are not an exact science. Rivals, 247, ESPN & Scout rankings can all vary quite a bit. I am not saying that they should totally be disregarded, but if they were an exact science, Alabama would have even more wins & National Championships over the past 8 years or so & Memphis wouldn't be playing nearly as well as they are.

2nd, the "top 10ish" recruiting schools generally lose several of their elite players after only 3 years. IMHO, IF UK can continue to recruit at their current pace (hopefully signing slightly better classes each year), they should be able to compete against anybody as long as they can keep their better players around for 4 or 5 years or until they are recruiting top 10/top 15 classes annually. That's the reason why UK is realistically still a year or 2 away from really competing in the SEC & it's simply because the majority of UK's best talents are not 4th & 5th year guys under Stoops.

 

[vhcat70]

Great posts, Erik. Totally agree.

Beyond your logic & insight, their best part is how they've brought out so much idiocy of expectations in so many responses as to what Stoops should have accomplished by now & is likely to accomplish. Off the charts from reality.

Keep posting so sensibly so the rest of can continue to keep a handle on the crazies & see what we're dealing with. Thanks.

 

[vhcat70]

Better players than UK has ever had. He makes that point very clearly. So in your op on not only should we recruit better than UK has in the past we should out recruit Bama, LSU, FLORIDA, etc etc in years 2-3-4? Really? As it has been said over and over. This is a Process, there's no fast forward button. I dislike quite a few things in game I've seen with stoops. But don't kid yourselves he is the man for the job.

Wunderbar!

 

[mtn cat1]

Losing brings out the worst in people, and it brings out the ridiculous as well. I'm surprised that Stoops is getting hammered to the extend that he is. I think people have forgotten where this program was when Mitch Barnhart pulled the plug on Joker Phillips. It's unfortunate. Looking at the Stoops timeline combined with what he's accomplished off the field, I have no idea why people aren't beyond excited to have him here (and frankly, I think a majority still are).

RECRUITING (rivals rankings)
1st class (29th)...I think any reasonable person would agree that Stoops and staff had precious little time to get much done. The result...a top 30 class. You could argue that no staff anywhere did a better job in Dec and Jan prior to signing day.
2nd class ((17th)...the best class in UK history. Ideally, these players would be redshirt freshman this year.
3rd class (35th)....a very solid class...UK only brought in 21 players.
4th class (currently 17th)....this class includes THREE 4-star offensive lineman.
Overall...I'd imagine his grade would be an A or high B with recruiting. Most important to remember, that first class was a minor miracle. The last two classes are truly Stoops' first two classes. Overall, these four classes represent the best four year "run" in my lifetime.

ON THE FIELD
2013: 2 wins
2014: 5 wins
2015: probably 6 or more wins
I know the "all that matters is the last game" mentality permeates sports these days, but losing big twice doesn't mean UK is doomed to finish that way. Getting absolutely pummeled isn't unique to Kentucky. Hell, even Oregon lost a home game by almost 50 this year. Anyway, big picture, Stoops has done exactly what we had hoped he would. UK has gotten better each year. IMO, it's important to appreciate that and to acknowledge it. No, he isn't contending for a league title. Then again, nobody thought he would be.

BLOWOUT LOSSES
One general comment a lot of fans make goes something like this....I can handle losing, but we should be competitive every time out. Really? With a roster that isn't even remotely complete? And it's tough for just about all schools to avoid getting pounded on occasion. UK fans are pissed because Stoops (with an inadequate roster) just got thumped back-to-back. Imagine how Georgia fans felt after a non-competitive loss to the Gators. Nebraska fans just watched PURDUE score 55 on the Huskers.

BOTTOM LINE
I think Stoops is right where he should be. That doesn't mean the staff can't do a better job (we've talked about the confused defense, eight men to return a punt, etc...), but don't forget the absolute disaster he inherited. In year two, he was a dropped INT at U of L away from going to a bowl game. This year, I think he'll win enough games to qualify for the postseason. Facilities are going to be amazing beginning next summer. Recruiting continues to be improved. UK has some very good young talent. Unfortunately, the "process" (yeah, I know, people that word) is just lengthy and difficult. With that being said, I like where the program is compared to 2012, and I see no reason to anticipate anything but continued improvement.

GBB!!!

I this too like this post!

 

[vhcat70]

I appreciate your post Erik and you make some very good points. There is a deficiency of talent that was left this staff and to illustrate that consider the following. From the 2011 class the only two starters we have are Huguenin and Forest. From the 2012 class we have only 4 starters Foster, Swindell, Toth and Towles. There are a few more that are backups. Most everyone else off of those classes are no longer with the team for various reasons. So you have two recruiting classes that if you consider red-shirting should make up the bulk of our junior and senior roster contributing a total of 6 starters plus a few backups. Therein lies a big part of the problem.

Having said that from watching the last two games there appears to be some issues with certain players not exhibiting the type of effort and energy it takes to win games in the SEC or at least be competitive. Several of us have noticed this and commented on it. Freddie Maggard suggested that the team lackes "toughness". I trust his eye.

So there is more than one thing at work here to account for the otherwise inexplicable meltdown in performance the last two games. The good news is help is on the way, but some of this is going to require some coaching decisions, actions, changes etc. as well.

D, Erik is talking overall view & progression of UK under Stoops - regardless of those here that say we're not progressing - 2.5 years in, but then your concerns switch to the near-term issues. Not saying you're wrong, but I think they just don't fit with the thread & detract from it. In another place, fine. To me, they're bumps in the road.

 

[vhcat70]

Always fun debating where we are as a program, where we might go and if what we are doing works. Recruiting is often brought up as something people see as a positive while others believe we have made progress, but still are behind where we need to be to comepete in the SEC. Instead of looking at the 3 classes individually, if you look at them together and compare them to teams in the SEC we actually play. Why compare it to teams like Auburn and LSU if we don't play either of those teams until 2020. So, over the last 3 recruiting classes, if you look at 5 stars, 4 stars and 3 stars we come it at 10th in the SEC, above Mississippi State, Arkansas, Missouri and Vandy and a spot behind USC.

Starting next year, we will have better talent on the field than all 4 of our OOC opponants, plus 3 of our SEC opponents (MSU, Mizzou, Vandy) and a step below South Carolina. So, we have recruited to have enough talent on the field to 100% be able to be better than or competitive with 8 of our opponants. That puts us in such a better place than we were just a few years back. Based on Rivals, here is where each team stands:

1. Alabama
14 *****
41 ****
21 ***

2. LSU
08 *****
37 ****
23 ***

3. Auburn
07 *****
36 ****
28 ***

4. Tennessee
06 *****
34 ****
39 ***

5. Georgia
03 *****
39 ****
38 ***

6. Florida
05 *****
31 ****
34 ***

7. Texas A&M
04 *****
36 ****
32 ***

8. Ole Miss
03 *****
22 ****
46 ***

9. South Carolina
00 *****
29 ****
41 ***

10. Kentucky
00 *****
15 ****
51 ***

11. Mississippi State
01 *****
10 ****
51 ***

12. Arkansas
00 *****
14 ****
46 ***

13. Missouri
00 *****
09 ****
53 ***

14. Vandy
00 *****
11 ****
41 ***

So, the talent is coming in to be much more competive and match the talent of most of our opponants. Now, we have to see what the staff can do with that talent.

Thanks. Next year the issue will still be that our best talent will be young. If you'd take your numbers for experienced classes only - 2013 & 2104 - in 2016, we won't look as good. It will be till 2017 that Stoops' better talent will be fully/near-fully mature.

 

[LowCountryCat]

First, recruiting rankings are not an exact science. Rivals, 247, ESPN & Scout rankings can all vary quite a bit. I am not saying that they should totally be disregarded, but if they were an exact science, Alabama would have even more wins & National Championships over the past 8 years or so & Memphis wouldn't be playing nearly as well as they are.

2nd, the "top 10ish" recruiting schools generally lose several of their elite players after only 3 years. IMHO, IF UK can continue to recruit at their current pace (hopefully signing slightly better classes each year), they should be able to compete against anybody as long as they can keep their better players around for 4 or 5 years or until they are recruiting top 10/top 15 classes annually. That's the reason why UK is realistically still a year or 2 away from really competing in the SEC & it's simply because the majority of UK's best talents are not 4th & 5th year guys under Stoops.

You're making a wild assumption that somehow our recruiting classes are higher than the rankings. When you make broad brush statements, you must allow for 'all things being equal' and you did not do that. All things being equal, the other teams should be doing the exact same things. All things being equal, other coaches will train, develop, and coach to the best of their ability. Except their players are ranked higher. So even a slight difference usually means the difference between a win or a loss. Absent any proof that our 13th ranked classes are somehow stealth top 10s or something, you must then list what Stoops has shown on the field that indicates he is a superior coach to the other guys in the league.

 

[LowCountryCat]

I very well could be ignoring some of the signs, but I do not believe the cutoff for the mess that Stoops inherited should be while his only two full recruiting classes are rs freshmen and sophomores (As noted in another thread, we are all but devoid of Jr and Sr talent).

The cutoff is Mitch, anyway, and he gave him his eternal stamp of approval. Like it or not, we're wedded to Stoops at the hip for the next 4 years. Doesn't mean I'm going to stick my thumb up my *** and sing along with "everything's fine in Cat land" groupthink.

Particularly considering that, while recruiting isn't ideal, it has improved drastically from the last two years of Joker's tenure and there is a good chance that the win total will have increased every year. The program was in a state that it could not win a conference game and lost ooc games to teams from smaller conferences. Progress is being made.

I've heard this argument till I see it in my sleep. And I continue to maintain, without any arguments moving me off my point, that higher ranked classes nationally only serve to help us solidify a max of FOUR wins per year. Conference rankings are the biggest determining factor of the outcomes of the other EIGHT games per year, again allowing for Stoops suddenly sprouting some football genius that we haven't seen yet.

Will I be disappointed if we lose to Vanderbilt? Of course I will. Will I be ready to fire Stoops? No. Alternatively, what if we win out? Is Stoops certain to be successful in the long term? Nah. I worked under a great coach for a long time that always reminded me that we were never as good as we thought we were after a win and never as bad as we thought we were after a loss. UK is coming off two trips to the woodshed that are overshadowing some of the positive things that have happened to the program in the past few years. We just disagree about whether things are moving in the right direction or the wrong direction...which is probably pretty common within fan bases of teams that are staring at a record somewhere between 5-7 and 7-5.

Even if Stoops loses out, he shouldn't be fired after this year. But if he gets fired after next year, Mitch should go right along with him since he's the one who dumped all that money on him in the middle of year two.

 

[LowCountryCat]

Prime, you can't assess the situation until the season is complete anyway. We could finish with three wins a row, for that matter we could win out. Chill, step away from the computer, and cheer for the team, you'll find life's more enjoyable. Posts about how stoops isn't the guy at this point make our fan base look delusional and petty. As I've said 100s of times before this is a PROCESS and there's going to be peaks and valleys. Gotta ride it out though. Asking for changes related to defense, play calling, or wanting to see a true identity for the team is acceptable at this point. That conversation is worthy of exploring. But trying to state that stoops isn't the guy and essentially speaking as though he needs to be cut loose is crazy.

And yet Mitch saw fit to dump over $16 million into Stoops' lap in the middle of season two. So yeah, I can assess all I want.

 

[BlueRaider22]

We have no idea what recruiting classes will be like if/when we start registering winning seasons.

 

[LowCountryCat]

Hope you're right, but then we're talking five MORE years from THIS point, right?

 

[cole854]

Anyway, big picture, Stoops has done exactly what we had hoped he would. UK has gotten better each year.

I stopped reading after this quote because it simply isn't a true statement. Big picture would show you the same mistakes are still being made, the offensive is still inconsistent and without an identity, and the defensive woes continue. This team was one deflection from losing to EKU and was tied with ULL with a minute to go.

This years team has not improved one bit. Your Mark Stoops homer takes are expected but you're wrong on this one.

 

[Kooky Kats_anon]

For every underachieving Nebraska (solid roster of talent at traditional power), I'll give you a Memphis, Houston or Toledo.

Getting your turd pushed in by all-accounts middling teams and undeservedly beating an OVC team is at the feet and responsibility of a coaching staff. They themselves will tell that to your face.

Right now, the staff is underperforming. There is NO debate.

Sorry, but Stoops has 1 more year to show competitiveness or I will assail the tower with torch and pitchfork...again.

 

[UKCatNnc]

Thanks UKErik. I agree with your posts. Go Cats!!

 

[bthaunert]

As far as outrecruiting, he already outrecruits Vandy. So we should beat them this season. If we don't, what will you say? I also think he should outrecruit South Carolina, Arkansas, and MSU. Maybe Ole Miss. I hope you're not arguing that he shouldn't out recruit anybody. If you are happy with #11 class in conference at best, prepare for 7-5 to be our ceiling.

I posted earlier in the thread that since has been here, his three classes, as a whole, have been better than MSU, Arkansas, Vandy and Mizzou. We are behind USC by one spot and have a little bit to do to catch up to them, but it's doable. Also, we don't play 13 SEC games. 4 of the teams in front of us will not be on our schedule every year. based on 5 of the teams ahead of us being SEC West (not including MSU, who is behind us and on our schedule every year and Arkansas who we have out recruited over the 3 years). So, over the past 3 years, our overall class is ranked like this based on our yearly schedule:

1. SEC West rotating team
2. Tennesee
3. Georgia
4. Florida
5. South Carolina
6. Kentucky
7. Mississippi State
8. Missouri
9. Vandy
10. Louisville
11. OOC 2
12. OOC 3
13. OOC 4

I don't think we will ever catch up with the the top 4. I just cannot see us, anytime soon, outrecruiting the top teams in the west, UT, UGA and Florida. I can see us outrecruiting USC and putting us right in the middle of the SEC teams, recruiting wise, based on our schedule. The only year I can see us with the 4th best recruted talent on our roster is the year we play Arkansas.

Now, the big question is how long does he get? He obviously has improved since year 1, but it's yet to be seen if this seaosn turns out better than last year. To really grasp how a coach can do with his talent, he needs 5 years to have a team solely with his talent (I think 4 would be fair). With that being said, if zero improvement is shown over years 2, 3 and 4, I'm not sure he would deserve a 5th. Based on his contract I believe he gets at least 5.

 

[UKWinsAgainYep]

No, his team last year shouldn't have gone bowling. Nobody that I saw in preseason projected that team to go bowling. However, Stoops had the team in a position to do so. Dropped interceptions at Florida and Louisville cost Kentucky a postseason bid more than anything the staff did (or didn't do).

In league play, how often has Kentucky been favored? He has 18 league losses. How many came as favorites? Maybe one? If there is one, I can't remember it.

This season, UK has played eight games. UK has been in six. We might be having a completely different conversation had Baker caught the pass against Florida and Badet held on to the bomb against Auburn. Either way, the staff had Kentucky in position to win the games.

You think demanding wins is the trick? Because nobody else demands wins, so clearly, that's where UK needs to get better (LOL). UK needs to put some big boy jeans on? Maybe that'll do it? Yeah, because EVERY OTHER school in the league isn't wearing the vaunted big boy jeans.

What Kentucky needs to win is better players. Recruiting rankings suggest Mark Stoops is getting them. The fact that he can't win big in the sport of football with a bunch of frosh and sophomores (the guys he's recruited) makes him just like almost every coach in football history.

GBB!!!

Exactly. A lot of UK fans just can't see the talent disparity on the field. I seriously didn't understand why many of our fans couldn't see how thin we were on defense before the season started.

I knew this was coming with our thin DE and LB spots. We aren't even close to having SEC depth. 2 more years and we migh have a solid 2 deep at all positions if recruiting stays steady.

We need 3 deep. UT completely outmatched us on the Lines.

6 or more wins and I'm happy. 5 wins this season is a complete failure by the Coaching Staff.

 

[LowCountryCat]

I posted earlier in the thread that since has been here, his three classes, as a whole, have been better than MSU, Arkansas, Vandy and Mizzou. We are behind USC by one spot and have a little bit to do to catch up to them, but it's doable. Also, we don't play 13 SEC games. 4 of the teams in front of us will not be on our schedule every year. based on 5 of the teams ahead of us being SEC West (not including MSU, who is behind us and on our schedule every year and Arkansas who we have out recruited over the 3 years). So, over the past 3 years, our overall class is ranked like this based on our yearly schedule:

1. SEC West rotating team
2. Tennesee
3. Georgia
4. Florida
5. South Carolina
6. Kentucky
7. Mississippi State
8. Missouri
9. Vandy
10. Louisville
11. OOC 2
12. OOC 3
13. OOC 4

I don't think we will ever catch up with the the top 4. I just cannot see us, anytime soon, outrecruiting the top teams in the west, UT, UGA and Florida. I can see us outrecruiting USC and putting us right in the middle of the SEC teams, recruiting wise, based on our schedule. The only year I can see us with the 4th best recruted talent on our roster is the year we play Arkansas.

Now, the big question is how long does he get? He obviously has improved since year 1, but it's yet to be seen if this seaosn turns out better than last year. To really grasp how a coach can do with his talent, he needs 5 years to have a team solely with his talent (I think 4 would be fair). With that being said, if zero improvement is shown over years 2, 3 and 4, I'm not sure he would deserve a 5th. Based on his contract I believe he gets at least 5.

Best argument I've seen yet. When you put it that way, I can see potentially getting to 8 wins before a bowl game. I still want to beat Florida and UT, though. So tired of being their doormat.

 

[pascat]

I disagree with your conclusion that Stoops is getting better players, Erik. Better relative to what? The rest of the nation? Maybe. At best that guarantees us 3 or 4 scheduled wins a season. But what about in conference? We still have eight conference games to fight through. If we are still last in conference in recruiting, even getting to 4-4 will be a pipe dream UNLESS Stoops becomes an awesome x's and o's coach, which he has yet to be. Recruiting seems better, but it still isn't good enough for the SEC.

Better players relative to what UK had before and relative to other programs. UK may not be climbing the rankings in the SEC recruiting race, but the talent gap is closing. All this means is that UK will soon be in much better position to win games it would ordinarily stand no chance to win. OP is spot on here.

 

[rmattox]

I posted earlier in the thread that since has been here, his three classes, as a whole, have been better than MSU, Arkansas, Vandy and Mizzou. We are behind USC by one spot and have a little bit to do to catch up to them, but it's doable. Also, we don't play 13 SEC games. 4 of the teams in front of us will not be on our schedule every year. based on 5 of the teams ahead of us being SEC West (not including MSU, who is behind us and on our schedule every year and Arkansas who we have out recruited over the 3 years). So, over the past 3 years, our overall class is ranked like this based on our yearly schedule:

I don't think we will ever catch up with the the top 4. I just cannot see us, anytime soon, outrecruiting the top teams in the west, UT, UGA and Florida. Based on his contract I believe he gets at least 5.

Agree...Ky catching up with top SEC teams in Football would be akin to, even more difficult than those schools catching up with Ky in bball. We should first strive to be competitive, which we have been for the most part, then to get to a bowl, then to start the tedious climb up the ranks. If we get to the point where we can get to the SEC title game...once in my life...at that point, I will believe we've reached the promised land. Doesn't have to be an annual thing...maybe only once every 15-20 years. That would be an infinite improvement over where we've been.

 

[LowCountryCat]

I posted earlier in the thread that since has been here, his three classes, as a whole, have been better than MSU, Arkansas, Vandy and Mizzou. We are behind USC by one spot and have a little bit to do to catch up to them, but it's doable. Also, we don't play 13 SEC games. 4 of the teams in front of us will not be on our schedule every year. based on 5 of the teams ahead of us being SEC West (not including MSU, who is behind us and on our schedule every year and Arkansas who we have out recruited over the 3 years). So, over the past 3 years, our overall class is ranked like this based on our yearly schedule:

1. SEC West rotating team
2. Tennesee
3. Georgia
4. Florida
5. South Carolina
6. Kentucky
7. Mississippi State
8. Missouri
9. Vandy
10. Louisville
11. OOC 2
12. OOC 3
13. OOC 4

I don't think we will ever catch up with the the top 4. I just cannot see us, anytime soon, outrecruiting the top teams in the west, UT, UGA and Florida. I can see us outrecruiting USC and putting us right in the middle of the SEC teams, recruiting wise, based on our schedule. The only year I can see us with the 4th best recruted talent on our roster is the year we play Arkansas.

Now, the big question is how long does he get? He obviously has improved since year 1, but it's yet to be seen if this seaosn turns out better than last year. To really grasp how a coach can do with his talent, he needs 5 years to have a team solely with his talent (I think 4 would be fair). With that being said, if zero improvement is shown over years 2, 3 and 4, I'm not sure he would deserve a 5th. Based on his contract I believe he gets at least 5.

Another question is how long does he stay. If we really need 7 years to see results, after a couple of shrimpy bowls he might move on to greener pastures. Maybe I'm a little too pessimistic but 50 years of futility can do that to a fan.

 

[BlueRaider22]

^Well, history of modern college coaching would agree with you there. Guys like Bowden, Paterno, etc.......guys that stay at one school forever are few and far inbetween.

 

[bthaunert]

Another question is how long does he stay. If we really need 7 years to see results, after a couple of shrimpy bowls he might move on to greener pastures. Maybe I'm a little too pessimistic but 50 years of futility can do that to a fan.

I don't think we need 7 years. I mentioned 4 or 5 years in my post since it takes that long to get a full roster of a coaches own players. The biggest question is, what is that magic formula? If we go back-to-back 7-5 seasons in years 4 and 5, will we get restless? It's possible. I am a realist. I would love 4 or 5 year spans to include a few 7-5 seasons with an 8-4/9-3 mixed in every few years.

 

[Chuckinden]

I think Stoops is on track also. Next year is when I expect significant improvement by winning some of those close games we missed out on these past two years. Also, next year will be time to show some player development from such a high paid staff.

One item I am still concerned with is the development of Mark Stoops as the Head Coach. I knew there would be a learning curve for him, but he seems to still have too much disconnect on what the entire team is doing. He and the staff are still making repetitious, silly mistakes. That has to improve.

I wanted to see improvement each year and I have seen that, but next year is the year where the rubber has to start meeting the road.

 

[vhcat70]

For every underachieving Nebraska (solid roster of talent at traditional power), I'll give you a Memphis, Houston or Toledo.

Getting your turd pushed in by all-accounts middling teams and undeservedly beating an OVC team is at the feet and responsibility of a coaching staff. They themselves will tell that to your face.

Right now, the staff is underperforming. There is NO debate.

Sorry, but Stoops has 1 more year to show competitiveness or I will assail the tower with torch and pitchfork...again.

You must enjoy torching a lot as your basis is absurd. MSU & TN are not middlin teams despite TN's record. They should be a good 6-2. Probably really best in the East. FL & AU didn't push UK around. I do think the staff take responsibility for where we are - which is significantly improved from when they took over but not up to the better SEC teams. Why is that so hard to understand & accept?

 

[sensible]

I'm solidly in Camp Stoops. He is the man I want here long term.

 

[cole854]

I stopped reading after this quote because it simply isn't a true statement. Big picture would show you the same mistakes are still being made, the offensive is still inconsistent and without an identity, and the defensive woes continue. This team was one deflection from losing to EKU and was tied with ULL with a minute to go.

This years team has not improved one bit. Your Mark Stoops homer takes are expected but you're wrong on this one.

UKErik....still believe this team has improved? If so, you have really lost all credibility.

 

[Geckoman]

UKErik....still believe this team has improved? If so, you have really lost all credibility.

Douche....

 

[buckkiller]

0 5* We need to get couple 5 stars a year for next 5 years so we have 8-10 on Roster. TALENT TALENT TALENT.

 

[chattanoogawildcat]

Your hired to win in your conference period.

wow!