sheesh. He is not the only one who missed. What’s your issue? Smh. Some can go 1-20 but if you let Tez go 3-7, you are crying. Cut it out and let the kid breathe. He is trying to find his rhythm too playing less minutes and taking less shots than most but you have something to say about every miss from him. Why you so worried about him and his game?
Mathis
- Thread starter bac2therac
- Start date
sheesh. He is not the only one who missed. What’s your issue? Smh. Some can go 1-20 but if you let Tez go 3-7, you are crying. Cut it out and let the kid breathe. He is trying to find his rhythm too playing less minutes and taking less shots than most but you have something to say about every miss from him. Why you so worried about him and his game?
right and he scored 9
Right. And he scored 9. 3rd most on the team considering playing 2nd the least minutes. You’re still not making since for crying about his mistakes.
I’m just saying all of this Mathis hate. Y’all can’t even admit that we need his style of play against these tougher teams. He is the spark in such big games. While others play intimidated against big teams, Mathis has been there before and always gives us a fight when the heat is on. You cannot beat a top 5 team without dogs like Tez and JY on the court playing more minutes and showing that gritty side of Rutgers. I’m sorry y’all. I’m just tired of the hate. It’s so weird
But Pikiel calls him when needed. Yesterday the foot was already too far up our asses by the time he decided to let the dog out and let Tez go out there and fight and get dirty for us. Yes, he makes mistakes, just like we all do, but he can compete and wants to win
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I was going to defend Tez again here (watching the game he seemed to be contributing more in the second half), but the BPM doesn’t lie (it’s a quant metric designed to aggregate all contributions and shortcomings from a game against the average player and normalize). BPM aligns with BACs original comment - Tez -8.7 (worst once again on the team by a very wide margin). RHJ was next bad with BPM of -2. That’s glaring for a comprehensive stat that has no qualitiative components to it. I’m kind of surprised - he didn’t seem that bad to me yesterday at the end but he was dreadful in the first half when things first fell apart so maybe that’s why.
I started this thread in the first half when the play was dreadful. Making a couple baskets in 2nd half doesnt change my opinion
Metrics don't measure shots not taken or opportunities not taken advantage of. I don't know how RU intends to score if you don't actually shoot the ball or try to score.
A missed shot is better than a turnover every single trip down the court. I have someone taking 11 shots in 18 minutes and another 5 in almost 30. One player impacted the defense by attacking (wildly ), one didn't and turned the ball over 3 times.
I don't like picking sides for players that have holes in their respective games but if you play Mathis 29 minutes and he scores 4 to 5 PPG, then you would be correct. It is impossible to get to 70PPG, unless you actually try and score.
Baker 12 to 13
Young 14 to 16
Myles 8 to 10
Caleb 6 to 10
Harper 10 to 12
That on a best case scenario gives you 60PPG.
You need another 10 PPG. Who is likely or shown an ability to get double figures, Mathis or Mulcahy....?? Keep in mind, the turnover per game for both is not drastically different.
One player has 7 double figures games in RUs first 9 games this season....one player has 9 or more points in half of RUs games this year.
One player has four double figure scoring games in now almost 2 full seasons....3 of the 4 double figure scoring games have come against opponents Sacred Heart, Lafayette, Caldwell and the other was in a key win vs Purdue.
RU needs to get to 70 PPG to be successful. I can't see that happening with any sort of consistency, even if you get RHJ back on track to a 12 to 15PPG pace.
It's basic math of Points per minute and I don't see how PM playing 29 minutes and hovering around 4 to 5 PPG, is the answer.....and Mathis is clearly the better defender.
I want what's going to get RU to a level of being tougher to stop and any way you slice it, if PM doesn't look to score and stays at 4 to 5 shot attempts per game, RU has no shot of winning against legitimate competition.
A missed shot is better than a turnover every single trip down the court. I have someone taking 11 shots in 18 minutes and another 5 in almost 30. One player impacted the defense by attacking (wildly ), one didn't and turned the ball over 3 times.
I don't like picking sides for players that have holes in their respective games but if you play Mathis 29 minutes and he scores 4 to 5 PPG, then you would be correct. It is impossible to get to 70PPG, unless you actually try and score.
Baker 12 to 13
Young 14 to 16
Myles 8 to 10
Caleb 6 to 10
Harper 10 to 12
That on a best case scenario gives you 60PPG.
You need another 10 PPG. Who is likely or shown an ability to get double figures, Mathis or Mulcahy....?? Keep in mind, the turnover per game for both is not drastically different.
One player has 7 double figures games in RUs first 9 games this season....one player has 9 or more points in half of RUs games this year.
One player has four double figure scoring games in now almost 2 full seasons....3 of the 4 double figure scoring games have come against opponents Sacred Heart, Lafayette, Caldwell and the other was in a key win vs Purdue.
RU needs to get to 70 PPG to be successful. I can't see that happening with any sort of consistency, even if you get RHJ back on track to a 12 to 15PPG pace.
It's basic math of Points per minute and I don't see how PM playing 29 minutes and hovering around 4 to 5 PPG, is the answer.....and Mathis is clearly the better defender.
I want what's going to get RU to a level of being tougher to stop and any way you slice it, if PM doesn't look to score and stays at 4 to 5 shot attempts per game, RU has no shot of winning against legitimate competition.
I wasn’t really thinking about the points as much as that we just looked better when Caleb shifted to the 4 and we had JY, Geo and Tez in at guard. Finally were able to keep up with them on defense and get some take aways and the pressing hid some of Tez weaknesses as there were less halfcourt sets during that rotation. But yeah, in the first half he was awful and it’s telling that even the better second half didn’t make up for it in the BPM.
I guess this is the issue. What do you consider back in the game. i consider going from down 15 to down 6 with the ball is back in the game. If getting the game to 6 with the ball potentially to cut it to a one possession game is not back in the game then i dont know what is.
Is he the one person who got us back in the game? No we had 5 guys. However he was one of the 5 guys on the floor who got the game back to single digits with a chance to make it a one possession game. in that stretch he had 4 points and was solid on defense. sure he was 0-4 from 3 but so was ron, ron was also 1-6 from the field, caleb was 0-2 from 3 & 0-5 from field. you have to give the same treatment to all he players.
in big 10 games only
With Mathis getting 20+ minutes a game we are 3-5 with wins over #13 illinois, @maryland, purdue and loses to @ #23 Ohio state, #10 Iowa, @ #23 Michigan State, Ohio State, @ Penn State... Avg points per game 71
With him getting 19 or less we are 5-4 with wins over @ Indiana, Michigan State, @ NW, Minnesota, and NW. With losses to #6 Wisconsin, @ #15 Iowa, @ #3 Michigan, Maryland..... Avg points per game 64.
It is clear that Mathis was playing during the meat of our big 10 schedule, and when he was playing 20+ minutes we were averaging 71 ppg. Playing with better players can have a strange effect on people. I believe that pikiell taking mathis out of the starting line up hurt his confidence and has effected him in a negative manor. Treatment that has not been given to Geo, Harper or mcconell.
My first order of business after yesterday would be to start myles, geo, harper, mathis and young. Stop the systematized substitution patterns and bring in Cliff, Paul and Mcconnell when the need arises
I agree 100%. For mathis you take the good with the bad and need to play him more to take advantage of the good when it comes. when he is on he gives us the spark, when bad he is bad but no worse than mcconnell or harper when they are bad.
Not only that but pikiell is the guy who controls the leach(pun intended). If mathis is bad you cut the minutes. when he is good you ride him. Mathis is not a guy you can give 10 minutes too and expect great things.
We are sitting here picking on Montez after ron goes 1-6/0-4 from 3 and mconnell 0-5/0-2 from 3...
3-11 2 turnovers 0 assists and 1 rebound in 18 minutes. I seem to recall tez struggling against Maryland in the past. Bottom line is geo and Harper have to show up.
You can’t have you’re leading scorer down to 10-12 points per game and the same Ppg as Caleb. I think you answered your own question.
Mathis not starting has made him a more selfish player. The only time he even thinks about passing the ball is during the weave at the top of the possession. He no longer lets the game come to him and forces shots because he knows he’s only going to be on the floor for 15-20. He’s still waiting for calls on contact when he recklessly crashes into bigs. Yeah he gives effort on D but he’s become frustrating to watch on O.
yeah, I’ve noticed the same. it’s an unconventional release. Wait till you see Jaden Jones shoot. Supposedly he’s a sharp shooter but he has funky form too.
Some of you guys really only look at ppg. It’s remarkable. Caleb had a bad game. So did Paul. Montez was not good either though, and you can’t just ignore all other non-scoring stats and say the marginal difference in offense that Tez could add is more important than everything else. It’s not.
When you take out the 3 meaningless cupcakes (sorry we can’t include the good things Tez did against FDU, Sacred Heart or Hofstra because Caleb wasn’t there to rack up those stats. Not apples to apples), Tez averages 8.1 points per game vs. 6.3 for Caleb. Big deal - that’s less than 2 points.
But for all the hype about Tez defense, he has a total of 10 steals all season when you remove those cupcakes. Caleb has 21 and many of them led directly fast break points even if he wasn’t the player to lay the ball in the net, or if the timing of the run out pass didn’t meet the criteria for an assist. On to that next though. Without the cupcakes, Tez has only 14 assists (that’s putrid for a guard by the way supporting the point that Tez isn’t a good halfcourt player). Caleb has 25. Caleb has slightly more rebounds too. With those 3 games removed, keep in mind that Tez still played 73 more total minutes than Caleb. Caleb also turns the ball over far less than Tez. Do these other stats simply not matter?
When you take out the 3 meaningless cupcakes (sorry we can’t include the good things Tez did against FDU, Sacred Heart or Hofstra because Caleb wasn’t there to rack up those stats. Not apples to apples), Tez averages 8.1 points per game vs. 6.3 for Caleb. Big deal - that’s less than 2 points.
But for all the hype about Tez defense, he has a total of 10 steals all season when you remove those cupcakes. Caleb has 21 and many of them led directly fast break points even if he wasn’t the player to lay the ball in the net, or if the timing of the run out pass didn’t meet the criteria for an assist. On to that next though. Without the cupcakes, Tez has only 14 assists (that’s putrid for a guard by the way supporting the point that Tez isn’t a good halfcourt player). Caleb has 25. Caleb has slightly more rebounds too. With those 3 games removed, keep in mind that Tez still played 73 more total minutes than Caleb. Caleb also turns the ball over far less than Tez. Do these other stats simply not matter?
They do matter and it’s probably a big reason why Caleb is starting and Mathis is struggling on the bench. I was wondering how Mathis would accept the bench role and I think it’s pretty obvious as his play has gotten even worse and more selfish. His value is on the defensive end, in the open court and fighting for put-backs. Hitting all those fool’s gold threes early in the season may have been a curse for him as he tries to re-capture those stats.
anybody with half a brain would recognize everything you just pointed out. I had no idea about those stats but Caleb is a player that fits into a team atmosphere. One thing you did not mention is that Caleb often is left holding the ball when the shot clock is expiring and in many instances he bailed us out by being able to create his own shot
I have nothing against Mathis.in fact, I hope he reaches the promise that he showed as a freshman. He just has to learn how to be a better teammate. Instead of driving into the defender and missing point blank shots and inevitably falling to the floor, pass the ball to your teammates.
Those stats matter the same way it matters who they play against, who they play the majority of their minutes with, how they fit within a given rotation, and how their presence can impact the performance of their teammates.
For the thousandth time dude, Mathis didn’t make RHJ “good” in December. His best game by a massive landslide was Purdue when RHJ didn’t play. RHJ is missing wide open shots and point blank lay ups. Mathis was not helping him make those earlier. The rotation crap is ridiculous. pike changed the original rotation when it wasn’t working for multiple games. Geez
Would you prefer to stick to the actual math then? It’s preposterous to say that Montez stats are worse because he played more minutes against better teams.
The non-point stats provided above are ABSOLUTE stats with a 73 minute gap in Montez favor (meaning he played 73 more total minutes than Caleb outside the first 3 cupcakes) in route to his totals of - 14 assists, 10 steals, etc. on the season. If you take out Illinois and the first OSU game (and just consider those tough opponents “bonus opportunities” for Tez to add to his absolute totals in the comparatives) Tez still played 10+ extra minutes in route to his numbers and there’s no way you can say it was against point blank “tougher competition” if you go game by game. The data just isn’t there.
what’s obviously staring fans in the face right now is no one thinks the current lineup walks away with more than 1 win vs Illinois Purdue Cuse if that
This makes perfect sense if players weren't allowed to pass. It goes along with Sojo using TOV% as an individual metric (where it doesn't work) vs. as a team metric (where it does).
On average in conference play, adjusted for 40 minutes:
Mathis takes 14.3 shots and makes 5.1 of them, with 1.2 ast and 2.0 turnovers. That's accounts for 6.3 made baskets and 2.0 turnovers per 40 minutes.
Mulcahy takes 6.0 shots and makes 2.7 of them, with 3.9 ast and 2.1 turnovers. That's accounts for 6.6 made baskets and 2.1 turnovers per 40 minutes.
And neither of those can account for "attempted assists", where a good pass was made for a shot, but the shot was missed.
If Mathis would pass the ball in obvious passing situations instead of putting his head down and barreling into defenders, he'd have more assists and fewer missed shots - and account for more overall points. He'd also be in better position to defend on the other end, and we wouldn't find ourselves 4 vs.5 as often.
This is why Young is so valuable.... he takes shots AND makes assists.
When looking at TOV% at the team level, all of those passes are factored in.... because every assist and attempted assist is counted as a team attempt.
We are not just picking on Mathis but until he learns to pass the ball instead of just blindly driving 1 on 3 or as in the Michigan he had a 2 on 1 and a 3on2 and there was never an inkling to pass the ball that can't happen;
Unfortunately like RHJ he has completely lost his shot unfortunately we really don't have a 4 to replace RHJ or I would sit him too
I don agree with you 100% that Pikell has got to learn to sprinkle in the subs and let the first team go at least 8 minutes and not just make 3 subs at once and he has to start JY
Cuse??? You know they were returning from Pause and missing at least one key player along with several recovering players. In an adjacent game, they scraped by Buffalo in OT.
Huh? That version of Cuse probably doesn’t win a game in the BIG. I was generous in not grouping that game with Hofstra and FDU despite it looking better on paper. Regardless - Mathis has nothing to do with RHJ making wide open 3s and missing them now. RHJ hit 5 3s in that game against a Syracuse team on par with Buffalo at the time. If he did that now we would beat the current, better version of Syracuse regardless of the rest of the line up.
a simple question is did Mathis make Harper a better player or are Harper’s woes related to another factor. Harper’s issues are what is killing this team right now. It’s as simple as that. We are doomed unless he gets it figured out. I think he added extra weight during his injury and needs to lose 15 pounds
All of that supports my point....there is a drastic difference between what is considered a turnover on a wild drive by Mathis, which is still a shot attempt that could result in a basket, foul (which speeds up how you get to a 1 and 1 or bonus) and not taking a shot altogether.
Mulcahy is not turning the ball over because he's careless with the ball....his turnovers are almost always "unforced".....it's not like he's getting pick pocketed by Jacob Young at mid court and giving up a layup.....or whatever pressure from an opponent. His turnovers are occurring when a shot and space are available and then he is making a pass to a player who is in a worse position or not able to score.
It is a simple fix.....
A) in order for Mulcahy to be a more effective passer, he has to be willing or want to score....Jacob Young doesn't get assists because he is looking to pass the ball, teams are defending him, because he threatens the team that he will score....does that mean a wild or ill-advised pass happens, or he tries to split a double team off the dribble??? YES, but he has intent on scoring....his assists are from that.
Mulcahy has to drive with intent on scoring early in the game, so he can get points on the board...teams will have to adjust if he takes 5 shot attempts a half....he handles the ball so he could take 5 shots a half and then if he wants to make 5 passes for assists, he'll probably get 3 assists per half.
Mulcahy in 29 minutes should have a stat line that looks like this.
4-11 FGA
2-5 3 PT FGA
2-3 FTA
12 PTS
4 RPG
4 AST
1 to 2 TOs
There's all types of space to make the others around him better by looking to score first.
Mathis is a complimentary player that plays an important roll when your best players are playing like your best players.
To depend on him like we did against Purdue is folly.
Mathis had a career game against Purdue. Ironically, when you look at who played, it kills the argument about Mathis needing “better players” in the rotation to succeed. Mathis played 28 minutes that game and I’m near certain he was in for all 10 minutes MJ sat - meaning he played a good chunk of minutes alongside Reiber or Duke. Paul played almost that whole game and RHJ didn’t play at all. Tez just had a “can’t miss” game and Purdue didn’t defend the perimeter well.
Don't disagree, but when compared to Mathis, it's a pick-your-poison.... someone who takes ill-advised shots when he should pass, or someone who gives up open shot opportunities to pass. If they could somehow be fused into a single player taking the strengths of both, that player would be hugely valuable.
You mentioned getting fouled, which is also an important element, too. Mathis gets another 2.2 pts/40 at the line, while Mulcahy gets 1.7/40.
Trying to get at points generated in conference play..... Mathis scores 14.2 pts/40 while Mulcahy scores 8.2 pts/40. But how many points is each assist worth?
We make 19.6 FGs and 6.2 3P per game, so about 24% of our made buckets are from the arc. So, very roughly, 24% of the assists would count for 3 points, and 76% would count as 2 points. With that metric, Mathis' 1.2 assists would account for about 2.7 pts and Mulcahy's 3.9 asists would account for about 8.7 pts.
So, altogether, both account for about 16.9 pts per 40 min across shots, FTs, and assists.
This ignores the # of assists and attempted assists that resulted in FTs... either as And-1 attempts on made shots, or FTs on missed shots. On the flip side, Mathis presents many more offensive rebound opportunities than Mulcahy does - resulting in, very roughly, an additional 1.6 opportunities off offensive rebounds per 40 min than Muclahy does.
There really isn't a ton of daylight between them this year in conference play when it comes to putting points on the board.
In the "what have they done for me lately" column, though, Mathis' stats benefit greatly from some early-conference success before falling off (19.0 pts/40 over first 5 games, 10.5 pts/40 over next 11). Mulcahy has also seen a bit of a falloff, but not as large (9.6 pts/40 over first 5, 7.4 pts/40 over next 11).
It’s just nuts to even entertain the notion that Mathis made RHJ a 20+ ppg player and that RHJ’s reduced production is related to Mathis not playing with him enough. There’s no evidence to support this. None.
Again - 14 total assists on the season sans the cupcakes for Mathis. 5 of them in an Iowa game where RHJ scored only 13 and shot 33%. 1 of them in the Purdue game where RHJ didn’t plays. 3 more in the Syracuse game (where as I pointed out - that Syracuse team was a shell of what it is now and it’s still not a tourney team. That Cuse team could’ve easily lost to Hofstra).
Isn’t it more likely that RHJ’s early production was mostly a product of playing 4 really bad teams, followed by a Maryland team that wasn’t nearly what it is today, and the. simply having a really good game against Illinois and first half against OSU. Then add on the injury that slowed him down and the weight gain, and here we are.
Very likely.
5 games of over 20pts (games 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 of the season - all before Christmas)
15 games of under 20pts
At what point is the 20+ppg scoring the outliner and just a "hot streak"?
Maybe the other 15 games aren't a "slump"?
How does Pike's empty scholarship feel now? No one was concerned the past 3 years. Maybe someone could have developed. We won't know now.
As long as there isn’t a mass exodus following us not making the tourney or losing a play in game (those would be devastating endings), it’s not going to be that bad.
The silver lining in RHJ’s drop off is he’s not NBA ready and will likely return but for the nightmare scenerio above. There’s a whole off season to get in shape and healthy for next year. Caleb is going to be sent to the weight room in the off-season. At 6-7 he’s likely going to play more 4 if MJ doesn’t return. When Cliff isn’t in, we would get by with RHJ and Caleb at the 4-5 after an off-season (even if we don’t land another quality BIG). PM is a natural point guard. He too has improved each year. He’s not an all start but he’s an adequate PG.
Mathis will start at the 3 and for all his head scratchers, we will still be, if nothing else, a solid defensive unit with him and Caleb playing together - especially after another year of off season development.
We could use a BIG if MJ leaves, of course, but the most important piece is bringing in a sharp shooter. The good news is the 2 is a position you could get quality minutes from a frosh, transfer or JUCO off the bat. It’ll be a quality opening that will generate a lot of interest because we will have decent surrounding pieces. Pike will have the luxury of being choosy in filling this role.
Finally, we don’t know that the frosh we have won’t be contributors next year. You cannot judge them as failures based on the contributions of guys like Geo, RHJ, Tez coming in as frosh when the team was starting at ground zero in upper class players.
The silver lining in RHJ’s drop off is he’s not NBA ready and will likely return but for the nightmare scenerio above. There’s a whole off season to get in shape and healthy for next year. Caleb is going to be sent to the weight room in the off-season. At 6-7 he’s likely going to play more 4 if MJ doesn’t return. When Cliff isn’t in, we would get by with RHJ and Caleb at the 4-5 after an off-season (even if we don’t land another quality BIG). PM is a natural point guard. He too has improved each year. He’s not an all start but he’s an adequate PG.
Mathis will start at the 3 and for all his head scratchers, we will still be, if nothing else, a solid defensive unit with him and Caleb playing together - especially after another year of off season development.
We could use a BIG if MJ leaves, of course, but the most important piece is bringing in a sharp shooter. The good news is the 2 is a position you could get quality minutes from a frosh, transfer or JUCO off the bat. It’ll be a quality opening that will generate a lot of interest because we will have decent surrounding pieces. Pike will have the luxury of being choosy in filling this role.
Finally, we don’t know that the frosh we have won’t be contributors next year. You cannot judge them as failures based on the contributions of guys like Geo, RHJ, Tez coming in as frosh when the team was starting at ground zero in upper class players.