Meanwhile, at Duke today.......
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The memories of the the 4 year guys are more visceral. Can you imagine is Tyus had stayed 4 years? I'd have considered a tattoo and would've named my next boy or GIRL: Tyus.
Honestly, we'd have had a shot at 4 titles in a row, even with Amile going down. Worst case scenario, we're in 4 Final Fours in a row.
Honestly, we'd have had a shot at 4 titles in a row, even with Amile going down. Worst case scenario, we're in 4 Final Fours in a row.
I understand the sentiments regarding Tyus Jones. But the assumption that his presence would have guaranteed a Final Four appearance as a worst-case scenario seriously underestimates the difficulties of advancing that far in a one-and-done format.
In 2002 Duke started Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, Dahntay Jones, Jason Williams and Chris Duhon, the latter a sophomore, the other four juniors, Williams the national POY, the second and third picks in the 2002 draft. Six future NBA players.
In 2006 Duke started two consensus first-team All-Americans-one the national player of the year. Both seniors.
In 2011 Duke went into the Sweet Sixteen with Kyrie Irving, Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, Mason Plumlee, Miles Plumlee, Seth Curry and Ryan Kelly, the first pick in the 2011 draft, two seniors who had started for an NCAA title team, two future big-man first-round draft picks. Eight future NBA players.
All of these teams lost in the Sweet Sixteen and all had more talent than Duke would have had in 2016 with Tyus Jones.
Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood couldn't even get Duke past Mercer.
It's just not that easy folks. Which makes K's track record all that more impressive. But I cringe a little bit every time I see a message-board post guaranteeing a deep NCAA run when and if Duke gets this one guy.
It's not that easy.
In 2002 Duke started Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, Dahntay Jones, Jason Williams and Chris Duhon, the latter a sophomore, the other four juniors, Williams the national POY, the second and third picks in the 2002 draft. Six future NBA players.
In 2006 Duke started two consensus first-team All-Americans-one the national player of the year. Both seniors.
In 2011 Duke went into the Sweet Sixteen with Kyrie Irving, Kyle Singler, Nolan Smith, Mason Plumlee, Miles Plumlee, Seth Curry and Ryan Kelly, the first pick in the 2011 draft, two seniors who had started for an NCAA title team, two future big-man first-round draft picks. Eight future NBA players.
All of these teams lost in the Sweet Sixteen and all had more talent than Duke would have had in 2016 with Tyus Jones.
Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood couldn't even get Duke past Mercer.
It's just not that easy folks. Which makes K's track record all that more impressive. But I cringe a little bit every time I see a message-board post guaranteeing a deep NCAA run when and if Duke gets this one guy.
It's not that easy.
That 2002 team just had no business losing to that Indiana team. Still, in my opinion, the biggest upset in Duke's history (including the 1st round losses, because the 2012 or 2014 Devils were NOT National Championship caliber teams).
jimlsumner and dukiejay are right, when you says things like we would win 4 in a row or play in 4 finals in a row we sound like cryolina talking about Kendall Marshals lost championship.
I agree. I also think we just got flat out lazy in the second half of that game b/c we were up double digits. That team was by far and away superior to the Indiana team they lost too, they had no business losing that game. The way we lost was fitting too, as JW had problems all year at the line- he does the hard part nailing the three and getting fouled, and misses the FT. Boozer definitely got fouled, but at the end of the day we should have never been in that position. I dont know that we would have won it all, but we were good enough too.
'99 and '04 sting big time to me. Mark brought up 2006 but that team had flaws- i loved that team b/c JJ is my favorite player but the problem with that team is that they would go through stretches of every single game of JJ watching. If JJ wasn't on, like he wasn't against LSU, we lost. He carried us in the ACC Championship (as he did multiple times in his career).
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I don't think anybody is saying its gospel truth but with Tyus for four years we'd have a good shot the whole time
No doubt. '99 and '04 stung because those Duke teams were championship-caliber, but those respective UConn teams were really good and definitely championship-worthy. The '99 team was 34-2 and had Rip Hamilton, Khalid El-Amin, Jake Voskuhl and the 2004 team was 33-6 and had Ben Gordon, Emeka Okafor, Rashad Anderson, Villenueva. It stings to lose, but it stings less to lose to a worthy adversary.
The 2006 team, as you say was a flawed squad. I think I remember reading at the time that no championship team had ever relied on two players to do as much of the scoring as Duke did with Redick and Williams. Those guys were almost 60% of Duke's offense that year. It was a razor's edge.
And if we had any of those other guys we would have had a good shot. Tyus was special and as clutch in his one year as anyone we've ever had not named Christian. But I don't think you're giving enough credit to the team we had around him last year. In order to be clutch Justise and Matt propelled us in the 16&8 rounds, in the final Grayson gave us the lift to be in a position to win at the end. So much went into it being a special year, which is why it is so difficult to do, and that is Jims point.
What I said wasn't ever suppose to be this big a deal.. We've had a long line of great players and Tyus was one and I think regardless if he were on a team for 4 years (just like Christian) we would have a shot at a ship each year.. I think that about Justice too
Idk if we would have made FF.... but we would have won that God forsaken Notre Dame game in the ACCT no if's or buts about it.
I freely admit it's a pet peeve. But I stand by my main point. Message boards are way too cavalier with throwing out these kinds of assumptions. And "worst-case scenario" is four FInal Fours is consistent with that.
And there's a huge gap between saying that the presence of a player gives his/her team a great chance of winning any game and a great chance of winning every game. Winning six straight NCAA Tournnament games against increasingly difficult competition is seriously difficult.
And there's a huge gap between saying that the presence of a player gives his/her team a great chance of winning any game and a great chance of winning every game. Winning six straight NCAA Tournnament games against increasingly difficult competition is seriously difficult.
I love Tyus just as much as all of you, but to say we are guaranteed 4 straight Final 4's with him is ridiculous. Tyus was clutch, and always came up big in our most important games. But he wasn't even our best player. The offense was run through Jahlil, and everyone else benefited because teams had to either double Jahlil or he was gonna score 30.
That 2015 team was just so stacked on offense, there really was no holes. Tyus never had to face a double team, never got trapped coming off a pick and role (which he definitely would have this season) and never had to go 1 on 5. I like to look at Tyus's year as the perfect player given the perfect opportunity, and that player took full advantage.
That 2015 team was just so stacked on offense, there really was no holes. Tyus never had to face a double team, never got trapped coming off a pick and role (which he definitely would have this season) and never had to go 1 on 5. I like to look at Tyus's year as the perfect player given the perfect opportunity, and that player took full advantage.
We got to witness the 2015 team. That's good enough for me. They owe us nothing.
must be a photoshop...duke guys NEVER come back to durham....
How about Tyus and Justice on last year's team? Now way Tyus was supposed to be 1 and done. Winslow was ranked behind Justin Jackson by all and behind Pinson by several "experts." Both of those guys will be playing as Juniors for UNC unless Jackson surprises us and stays in the draft.
And that is why unc has not been getting elite recruits. You can talk about the scandal but the fact that these high rated players stay 3-4 years speaks louder than the scandal. Recruits see what is going on at unc.
Tyus was our most valuable player, though. His instincts and basketball IQ is off the charts. Off. The. Charts.
Okafor is a very unique talent in today's basketball. His game, unfortunately, just isn't as commonplace in basketball anymore. Many young players don't subscribe to being back-to-the-basket, post-up guys. They want to stretch the floor, face up, attack and shoot jumpers.
To me JJ and Irving had similar characteristics in that, as talented as they were scoring the ball, neither worried much about the mindset of teammates. When JJ was off...the team had no idea what to do and Redick had never worried about a backup plan because he was so successful. No matter how special Irving was...Nolan became such a spectator and didn't adjust great to being off-ball.
This isn't intended to be a dig at either player. The NBA took a while to adjust to the benefits of team basketball over just top end talent. Ideally your best talent buys in...Spurs / GS and Duke in 2010 and two years ago.
I don't think in this day and age of basketball that you can win at the highest level with a ball dominant scorer...especially if the effort isn't as high on the defensive end.
It was a bit overstated. It's absolutely fair to say his presence this year probably makes us a 1-seed, and that a jr season would answer our PG concerns. We'd be an obvious candidate for the FF every year... just like we were in '02, '06, '11...
I agree with pisgah. Tyus was the most cold blooded assasin I remember in a while. When I think of what he did at UVA, both UNC games, and the Natty I get chills of joy and tremendous pride for our school!
I remember this being a clear issue. I think had Kyrie played all year, they would have adjusted eventually, but Nolan looked like sophomore Nolan sharing space with G when KI was there. They didn't even really get super close until Kyrie got hurt.
Just look at the Arizona game. Nolan was consistently stellar all year. No end of year JJ fade. Then he gets into that game and goes 3-14 with 8 points, 6 to's/2 asts and Kyrie gets his with 28. Even Kyle seemed to not necessarily mesh with Kyrie. On the other hand, Mase's career was bolstered by Kyrie's arrival.
I think the big thing with KI is that you can't have another Alpha-dog guard along side him. He's a point guard who can facilitate, but his strength is getting his own shots. Look what happened in Cleveland with Dion Waiters.
So as talented as he was, as you said Tim, to think that team would have been totally unstoppable may be flawed a bit, and I used to be one of those who said it was possible.
I don't think there was any issue about whether Nolan, Kyle, and Kyrie could coexist because they were phenomenal in the early season games before KI got hurt. They just had to become a different team in his absence. Had they of had the season to grow and evolve as a group, the sky was the limit. But they were trying to re-inigrate him in the tournament, after being another team for months, and it was tough.
That doesn't mean I question the decision. If you have a guy like Kyrie and he is healthy, you play him.
That doesn't mean I question the decision. If you have a guy like Kyrie and he is healthy, you play him.
There was a 2 week stretch last year where Duke looked very average at best. Struggled vs inferior teams and lost a couple of games. No coincidence that in that same time frame, Tyus Jones was in a slump. I don't think it is a question that he was our most important player. That said, I am not sure how much of an impact he would have had on this year's team. Definitely would have been better, but I don't think it would have been the cure all for this team.
Exactly.. K even said after the season that he believes we had a shot to run the table with a healthy Kyrie. That's saying something
I will continue to argue that Duke with Tyus for 4 years would've meant 4 FFs. He makes everyone better, and we were already very good last year. Expert ball control goes a long long way.
Sure, anything can happen come March. This would be my prediction though.
Sure, anything can happen come March. This would be my prediction though.
Haha I guess it doesn't really matter either way, even though no player has been to 4 straight final fours since some guy named Laettner 25 years ago. And that's in all of college basketball.
To Jim's point, when people say that 2011 would have been undefeated if Kyrie would have stayed healthy... Is a lot for me to swallow. Just wasn't happening.
Yeah, but likely those losses would've been to top teams and when we were playing lazy. I like our chances for a FF run in that scenario.