Need some personal advice
- Thread starter Shamoan
- Start date
Being an educator for 28 years, this is outrageous. Here's what I'd do
1) Dress Nice and talk to your prof first-be businesslike. Use the infamous line..."I've gotta problem that I need your help"
2) Give her some options that will result in chance at passing and don't be adversarial. She needs to be able to save face
3) No more, take it up the chain of command, doing the same as #1 and #2
4) End it at Student Affairs or maybe even the Pres office
Every place you go make sure you either bring along someone else to vouch or document every word spoken.
5) Practice what you're gonna say
6) God Bless..............I would be so so pissed.
1) Dress Nice and talk to your prof first-be businesslike. Use the infamous line..."I've gotta problem that I need your help"
2) Give her some options that will result in chance at passing and don't be adversarial. She needs to be able to save face
3) No more, take it up the chain of command, doing the same as #1 and #2
4) End it at Student Affairs or maybe even the Pres office
Every place you go make sure you either bring along someone else to vouch or document every word spoken.
5) Practice what you're gonna say
6) God Bless..............I would be so so pissed.
that is the way i am leaning currently, however, i do not feel like i can continue on in my current program, which would require transferring out of state, as there are no other programs of its kind in the state. that comes down to an issue of trust. i feel like i cannot trust my current program not to pull something similar. the BIG and most important year of the program was slated to start this fall for me....and that program is undergoing an internal investigation from the school as to their practices. apparently, a committee designed to filter out ridiculous exam questions was circumvented by certain professors and the unapproved questions were allowed on exams, which resulted in the failure of several students.
what happened to those students? they were given their D or F and told better luck next time all while the internal investigation was taking place. they never righted that wrong for those students, but it cost them thousands of dollars and another year nonetheless. that is a prime example of how my program has completely run-a-muck.
i just dont feel like i can trust the program which will probably require relocation to another state for me to even continue in the program. out of state tuition is almost prohibitively more expensive, but we might could make it work. i guess im going to have to start man-whoring on nights im not doing dad stuff or studying my *** off.
what happened to those students? they were given their D or F and told better luck next time all while the internal investigation was taking place. they never righted that wrong for those students, but it cost them thousands of dollars and another year nonetheless. that is a prime example of how my program has completely run-a-muck.
i just dont feel like i can trust the program which will probably require relocation to another state for me to even continue in the program. out of state tuition is almost prohibitively more expensive, but we might could make it work. i guess im going to have to start man-whoring on nights im not doing dad stuff or studying my *** off.
It sounds like you are a cash cow for your program. I can't figure out what program you would be in but I'm guessing it's one where there is not good job placement afterwards. If you were (and the salary prospects were as good as you say), needlessly antagonizing a graduate would be avoided because of the potential that it would cost them donations later. But for a lot of grad programs, sucking an extra year of tuition out of a student is pure positive. They can bleed as much money as possible from you through gov't aid before you graduate with a mountain of debt and income potential that's not enough to justify it, much less pay off the loans and give back to the school. If you are in a state program in Mississippi, I'd be trying to figure out if you have any connections to the IHL. This process is going to be a whole lot easier for you if you are a model student. If you've been skimming by and treating grad school like undergrad (I assume not since you have a kid), nobody is going to want to stick their neck out for you. But anybody on the IHL should be concerned about public programs in Mississippi needlessly extending a students time to graduate because of one exam when that student has good grades (not just passing, but good) in the other classes in the program. If you look like a marginal student, it'll be a lot easier for people to believe that the problem is not that you are taking an extra year to graduate, but that you are being allowed an extra year to graduate at all.
Indeed. You can't get frustrated after the first thing that happens so keep after it. There's the old joke grad students have about school... There's B.S., M.S., and then it's Piled Higher and Deeper.
much appreciated. in academia, logic and reason do not always prevail....no offense. a professor that sees the big picture without the clouded vision of their academic goggles are rare birds indeed.
i am experienced enough to know that i probably dont have a realistic shot, but what they are doing is a 17ing disgrace.
i am experienced enough to know that i probably dont have a realistic shot, but what they are doing is a 17ing disgrace.
I think you're off-base with the "fairness" argument. I know you're not literally saying "it's not fair", but that's your basis.
The fact that 20+ students failed this tes before the curve indicates that the test was likely flawed in some way, thus a curve was allowed. One person failing by one point doesn't warrant a curve, thus no curve. So from an outsider's viewpoint, who has been through a doctorate program with cut-throat grading and crazy professors, your discussion of the curve elicits no sympathy. Especially when considering that even with the curve, you did not pass.
Plus, I get that you busted your *** all year to get a decent grade. But you, like everyone else, knew that if you failed the final, you failed.
What I disagree with is the professor's hard-line stance. In a graduate-level program, there should be some way to show your knowledge of the material to the prof to justify your passing the course, given that you had a good grade going into the final (so you obviously had a grasp on the material). And if you really did have computer issues, you should definitely have that chance.
Was there a monitor where the testing was done to inform of your issues when they happened? I assume you had to go to a lab with your own computer to take the test.
The fact that 20+ students failed this tes before the curve indicates that the test was likely flawed in some way, thus a curve was allowed. One person failing by one point doesn't warrant a curve, thus no curve. So from an outsider's viewpoint, who has been through a doctorate program with cut-throat grading and crazy professors, your discussion of the curve elicits no sympathy. Especially when considering that even with the curve, you did not pass.
Plus, I get that you busted your *** all year to get a decent grade. But you, like everyone else, knew that if you failed the final, you failed.
What I disagree with is the professor's hard-line stance. In a graduate-level program, there should be some way to show your knowledge of the material to the prof to justify your passing the course, given that you had a good grade going into the final (so you obviously had a grasp on the material). And if you really did have computer issues, you should definitely have that chance.
Was there a monitor where the testing was done to inform of your issues when they happened? I assume you had to go to a lab with your own computer to take the test.
It was the department head's decision to not allow the student that was 1 point shy advancement in the program. the head cited that this was a "Weed-out" tool to remove those that should not be in it. keep in mind, this is year 5 of the 7 year program...and in truth, the last year of the program is not an academic year, meaning that this year was the next to last step to finishing the program.
I am going to do my best not to show my frustration and I will be bringing my kid with me to the meeting to show him just exactly who he will be hurting with his decision. they wont give a damn, but i have been watching him since i have been off from school and figured it wouldnt hurt. they will undoubtedly slit my throat, so im not going in with any expectations. they will (and already have) play semantics about what the curve truly is and justify it as they see fit. they have already indicated that this will be their plan of attack. this meeting tomorrow is just a farce.
I am going to do my best not to show my frustration and I will be bringing my kid with me to the meeting to show him just exactly who he will be hurting with his decision. they wont give a damn, but i have been watching him since i have been off from school and figured it wouldnt hurt. they will undoubtedly slit my throat, so im not going in with any expectations. they will (and already have) play semantics about what the curve truly is and justify it as they see fit. they have already indicated that this will be their plan of attack. this meeting tomorrow is just a farce.
the testing is done in an auditorium. I did finish the exam after blowing through the second half in an effort to make up lost ground (all while still fighting through the technical issues). they dont allow paper exams, so Im not sure what notifying them would have helped other than delay me even further. if i thought (and I considered it) it would benefit me to call them over, I would have done so. im certain they would have told me to suffer through it, as my laptop was not completely on the skids.
Valid insight, but i dont think you addressed the inequity or at least seriously undervalue it. had nobody failed initially, there would have been no curve whatsoever. the curve was only enacted to cover their *** because they couldnt follow the syllabus and outright fail that many students. as soon as they begin to make exceptions, exceptions that were clearly made, imo, they invalidate the rule itself. if they failed the 20+ students based on their performances, as they should have, i wouldnt have any qualms or arguments whatsoever. the truth of the matter is that they were covering their *** because they couldnt outright fail that many students, but they were willing to fail the lowest of this group. keep in mind, the questions that were disallowed were perfectly legitimate questions with absolutely nothing wrong with them other than being a little more difficult than the others on the exam.
with little doubt, your argument is exactly the stance they will take. what they will do is parade out my poor exam grade, denigrate the score i achieved prior to the arbitrarily fixed curve and completely ignore what I had done prior to the final exam. Of the 2600 points possible in the course prior to the final, I had earned 2300 of them in my effort prior to the final (those were not all equally weighted, rather a representation of the work that I had put in throughout the grueling semester). They will brush this to the side along with the other 79% of the course that earned me a B prior to that exam. That is all fine and dandy and will undoubtedly take place, but they cant sit there and tell me a person that was 3 points higher than me and still significantly lower than the minimum grade should be allowed through...a person which might very well have a lower overall grade than me. with a class size of over 100 students, i have little doubt some will qualify in exactly the circumstance i illustrated.
If the syllabus says one thing, that is what should be upheld. what we have is a gray area in which the stipulation of the syllabus is manipulated to be less harsh. as academics, they opened themselves up for criticism by not following what they said. A 69.5% is a 69.5% not a 57% or anything else in-between. they can manipulate their "line item analysis" to say and do whatever they desire regardless of its validity. they can and did do exactly that and i came up short based off their adjusted grade.
i expect to see exactly what you argue tomorrow. i have seen a lot of injustice in my 9 years in college and tomorrow will be no different. however, i do expect a little less objective opinion and a little more denigration of my unadjusted grade.
Valid insight, but i dont think you addressed the inequity or at least seriously undervalue it. had nobody failed initially, there would have been no curve whatsoever. the curve was only enacted to cover their *** because they couldnt follow the syllabus and outright fail that many students. as soon as they begin to make exceptions, exceptions that were clearly made, imo, they invalidate the rule itself. if they failed the 20+ students based on their performances, as they should have, i wouldnt have any qualms or arguments whatsoever. the truth of the matter is that they were covering their *** because they couldnt outright fail that many students, but they were willing to fail the lowest of this group. keep in mind, the questions that were disallowed were perfectly legitimate questions with absolutely nothing wrong with them other than being a little more difficult than the others on the exam.
with little doubt, your argument is exactly the stance they will take. what they will do is parade out my poor exam grade, denigrate the score i achieved prior to the arbitrarily fixed curve and completely ignore what I had done prior to the final exam. Of the 2600 points possible in the course prior to the final, I had earned 2300 of them in my effort prior to the final (those were not all equally weighted, rather a representation of the work that I had put in throughout the grueling semester). They will brush this to the side along with the other 79% of the course that earned me a B prior to that exam. That is all fine and dandy and will undoubtedly take place, but they cant sit there and tell me a person that was 3 points higher than me and still significantly lower than the minimum grade should be allowed through...a person which might very well have a lower overall grade than me. with a class size of over 100 students, i have little doubt some will qualify in exactly the circumstance i illustrated.
If the syllabus says one thing, that is what should be upheld. what we have is a gray area in which the stipulation of the syllabus is manipulated to be less harsh. as academics, they opened themselves up for criticism by not following what they said. A 69.5% is a 69.5% not a 57% or anything else in-between. they can manipulate their "line item analysis" to say and do whatever they desire regardless of its validity. they can and did do exactly that and i came up short based off their adjusted grade.
i expect to see exactly what you argue tomorrow. i have seen a lot of injustice in my 9 years in college and tomorrow will be no different. however, i do expect a little less objective opinion and a little more denigration of my unadjusted grade.
I would definitely take it up a level. Look most grad schools do not want this type of publicity to get out. They want to attract other students that have lots of options on where they can go. Plus, they have all kinds to stats that they do not want to screw up with some wacky professor. Stats like what % of students successfully complete the program, etc. Plus, I found in grad school that the teachers were actually more down to earth. They want their students to be successful, and failing one on a technicality looks bad.
Just a word of advice... I'd leave bringing your child out of the picture. As soon as they see that, all they will see is a sob story. Fairness or not, I'd fight it tooth and nail, but stick to the matter at hand and stick to the facts. Don't dig yourself an unnecessary hole and don't subject your child to essentially being used as nothing but leverage (sadly, that's how they would see it. I wouldn't bring my child to a job interview to persuade someone to give me a job). Keep your emotions in check, stay calm, and stick to the facts. Just my 2 cents.
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i do have a sister that is a tv producer of a big 3 news affiliate in memphis that would more than likely bring this particular program to its knees if I pursued it, but im not sure she would be interested in the story or even if the public cares. she knows my situation and hasnt really asked any questions that I am aware of.
Update: one of my classmates (a pretty good guy and intelligent enough...without tooting the horn too much, to get to this level, our program is extremely competitive and you cant really get in if you dont know your ****...all that to say, my my peers are the cream of the crop with little to no exception) anyway, he is in the EXACT same situation and he was informed through a secondary party that he was being removed from a summer-school course that would be required for our advancement via an email sent from the school's administrators. Im sure the same email was sent to someone in the same position over me.
it looks like I don't even get a legit shot at making my case in front of the dean or associate dean, as they are already telling these individuals that we will not qualify. I cant trust this program, so I will be looking out of state if and when I decide to continue. with this much debt, i dont have many options other than to wear it.
it looks like I don't even get a legit shot at making my case in front of the dean or associate dean, as they are already telling these individuals that we will not qualify. I cant trust this program, so I will be looking out of state if and when I decide to continue. with this much debt, i dont have many options other than to wear it.
i think you are right. i have been wrestling with the idea. the wife said she would take him to day-care for the meeting.
that is good advice. thanks.
unfortunately, everything points to the fact that im dead in the water and nothing i say tomorrow will save me.
that is good advice. thanks.
unfortunately, everything points to the fact that im dead in the water and nothing i say tomorrow will save me.
I wish I could say I feel bad for you, but I've gone through the same thing, but not from a single class, but the entire program. We have tests over entire books (some 500 pages) and have to pass to pass that semester (along with passing all our other class, with passing being a B). We finish the program with a cumulative test over all of our books to graduate.
I definitely feel your pain.
I definitely feel your pain.
Can you be honst with yourself?
(1) Regardless of the outcome of your "appeal process", please do a financial analysis of your prior and (maybe) future financial investment into this degree. Financially, where will you be in 20 years (if you get a job in your chosen field) if you stop now ... versus ... completing your grad studies? Too many students I know have poured money into a graduate degree that ended up yielding nothing other than more debt and another sheepskin on the wall. I don't know what field of study you're pursuing, but few colleges are honest enough to look a student in the eye and tell them that their prospects for a great, well-paying job in a particular field are very slim. (It is not my intent to assume that you haven't already made such an analysis.)
(2) If you're fed up with whole situation, your grades may suffer.
(3) You're a husband first, a father second, and you have the primary responsibility to provide for your family. Financial debts ALWAYS affect families. Emotional debts yield even greater effects. I'm not trying to send you off on a guilt trip, I'm just speaking from experience. I encourage you to be brutally honest with yourself about your situation. (Most of us find this to be a difficult thing to do.)
(1) Regardless of the outcome of your "appeal process", please do a financial analysis of your prior and (maybe) future financial investment into this degree. Financially, where will you be in 20 years (if you get a job in your chosen field) if you stop now ... versus ... completing your grad studies? Too many students I know have poured money into a graduate degree that ended up yielding nothing other than more debt and another sheepskin on the wall. I don't know what field of study you're pursuing, but few colleges are honest enough to look a student in the eye and tell them that their prospects for a great, well-paying job in a particular field are very slim. (It is not my intent to assume that you haven't already made such an analysis.)
(2) If you're fed up with whole situation, your grades may suffer.
(3) You're a husband first, a father second, and you have the primary responsibility to provide for your family. Financial debts ALWAYS affect families. Emotional debts yield even greater effects. I'm not trying to send you off on a guilt trip, I'm just speaking from experience. I encourage you to be brutally honest with yourself about your situation. (Most of us find this to be a difficult thing to do.)
yeah, not much you can do about it. the issue is that there are 2 ways to fail...the pass/fail final or the traditional fail by %. bust you *** just to earn the opportunity to pass again. I know im not alone, i just wish grad schools were something other than constant curve-balls and roadblocks. i guess that is becoming the norm now.
Sounds like Pharmacy School and possibly UT since he says Memphis.
If it is Pharmacy I would be careful because the job demand is dropping like a lead balloon. Cut your losses and become a Murse.
the comments are appreciated. the prospects once I finish school are excellent...which is why I chose this field to go back to school. the placement will be at or near 100% for those that really want a job and my earnings potential will only be limited by how much I want to work (within reason).
i dont care about the money...the money is just a vehicle to provide for my family. I have no illusions of expensive homes and fast cars although some in my field choose that option. it can certainly be a difficult thing to balance. In my situation, after chewing on the options for a few days, although it is not an easy decision, the obvious decision is to continue on. I just need to decide if that will be at my current program, who, right or wrong, I dont feel like I can fully trust, or to move to another program.
throughout this process, I dont blame anyone other than myself, but sometimes there are things that are out of your control. the responsibility is squarely on my shoulders and i accept that regardless of individual circumstance.
i dont care about the money...the money is just a vehicle to provide for my family. I have no illusions of expensive homes and fast cars although some in my field choose that option. it can certainly be a difficult thing to balance. In my situation, after chewing on the options for a few days, although it is not an easy decision, the obvious decision is to continue on. I just need to decide if that will be at my current program, who, right or wrong, I dont feel like I can fully trust, or to move to another program.
throughout this process, I dont blame anyone other than myself, but sometimes there are things that are out of your control. the responsibility is squarely on my shoulders and i accept that regardless of individual circumstance.
You don't have to reply, but sounds like Pharmacy school. I'm telling you, cut your losses. Job field is tight and nobody likes retail. The $$$ has fooled a ton of suckers, so don't feel like you're the first. Quit now and become a nurse.
As a former professor….
I can give you my perspective.
If this policy is in the syllabus, your best hope is that someone shows sympathy. A problem for professors is that if they put a policy in the syllabus, it needs to be enforced. It is essentially a contract with the student. This becomes an issue if she has ever failed someone else for the same reason. If she cuts you a break, even if you have a legitimate reason for help, and she failed someone else under the same policy, then she opens the school up for a lawsuit. If no one else has ever been caught by the clause, then there is room to bend the syllabus. I have wanted to help students in the past, but could not because it was not in the syllabus.
Follow the chain of asking for help. Schedule a meeting (do not just show up by her office) and give your legitimate reason. Then go to the department chair. You can go to the dean from that point. From there you can file a formal appeal.
Through the chain of conversation, she or someone along the chain may pressure her to give you a break. Be prepared though, due to academic freedom, if a policy is in the syllabus and she has always enforced the policy consistenly, you may be out of luck. No one can force a professor to go against a grading policy in the syllabus if it is consistenly applied to all students.
I can give you my perspective.
If this policy is in the syllabus, your best hope is that someone shows sympathy. A problem for professors is that if they put a policy in the syllabus, it needs to be enforced. It is essentially a contract with the student. This becomes an issue if she has ever failed someone else for the same reason. If she cuts you a break, even if you have a legitimate reason for help, and she failed someone else under the same policy, then she opens the school up for a lawsuit. If no one else has ever been caught by the clause, then there is room to bend the syllabus. I have wanted to help students in the past, but could not because it was not in the syllabus.
Follow the chain of asking for help. Schedule a meeting (do not just show up by her office) and give your legitimate reason. Then go to the department chair. You can go to the dean from that point. From there you can file a formal appeal.
Through the chain of conversation, she or someone along the chain may pressure her to give you a break. Be prepared though, due to academic freedom, if a policy is in the syllabus and she has always enforced the policy consistenly, you may be out of luck. No one can force a professor to go against a grading policy in the syllabus if it is consistenly applied to all students.
good info. thanks for the comment.
at this point, the deed is done. a younger me would fight it tooth and nail till the bitter end, but i am experienced enough to know how these things work and i have seen a lot of issues come and go, most of which were not related to me. in my opinion, its safe to say it is over. call it taking the high road, call it giving up, whatever works. sometimes, things that are not right, happen and go uncorrected. i dont want to aggrandize myself and call it "injustice", but in my opinion, there is a degree of that. I wasnt the first and i wont be the last. that is just how it goes sometimes in life. it sucks, but whatcha gonna do? i dont have any real options. time to reset, regroup, and formulate a new gameplan and put myself in a position in which success is likely rather than a roll of the dice.
at this point, the deed is done. a younger me would fight it tooth and nail till the bitter end, but i am experienced enough to know how these things work and i have seen a lot of issues come and go, most of which were not related to me. in my opinion, its safe to say it is over. call it taking the high road, call it giving up, whatever works. sometimes, things that are not right, happen and go uncorrected. i dont want to aggrandize myself and call it "injustice", but in my opinion, there is a degree of that. I wasnt the first and i wont be the last. that is just how it goes sometimes in life. it sucks, but whatcha gonna do? i dont have any real options. time to reset, regroup, and formulate a new gameplan and put myself in a position in which success is likely rather than a roll of the dice.
I really feel for you man. I was in a class that had a similar situation. Summer school Statistics class where the final failed almost every student in the class. Me and a couple of other students had an A in the class and all ended up with a C after the final. The rest of the class were flunked and the prof would not even entertain the idea of curving the finals. If it sounds like the finals were a complete joke, you are correct. The prof stated repeated what was going to be on the final and then gave us a comprehensive final with some things we did not cover in class. I was glad to get my C and GTFO but there were a lot of tears in that room.
i'm late to the party, but unfortunately no one has pointed out your best line of attack: the syllabus is contradictory. if the professor wants the final to determine the grade, then the final should be 100% of the grade. if the final can fail a student with an otherwise passing grade, but not pass a student with an otherwise failing grade, then by its nature it is unfair to the student and against university rules.
Ole Miss academic policy defines a course failure as: "The grade of F is recorded if the student has failed on the combined evaluation of work through the semester". Your professor's policy does not meet this requirement. BAM, they are in the wrong. I am not a lawyer, but i would investigate your options to sue for breach of contract.
https://secure4.olemiss.edu/umpolicyopen/ShowDetails.jsp?istatPara=1&policyObjidPara=10647554
i had a similar issue at MSU. no one wanted to make a decision until i hinted at suing, at which point they caved, because they knew they were in the wrong but expected me to drop the issue. but i knew the rule and knew i was right, and once they realize i wasn't dropping it a VP got involved and settled it.
anyway, here is the university appeals process, i suggest you follow it to the letter, mentioning your computer problems but basing your appeal on the above university policy of final grades being based on the entirety of the semester's work.
https://secure4.olemiss.edu/umpolicyopen/ShowDetails.jsp?istatPara=1&policyObjidPara=10818079
Solid advice.
A friend's daughter had an extremely similar issue at an in state school. His daughter, who was a stellar student in a PHD program, carefully followed the appeal process to the letter to no avail.
Because he had a very high net worth, he afforded his daughter a substantial and credible legal threat which started at the President's office not a lower level. To which the school immediately caved like a Florida sinkhole.
Fearing a backlash in her remaining classes, after regaining her good standing, the daughter thumbed her nose at the department and took her 4.0 minus one class GPA elsewhere to round out her PHD.
Dealing with "little man/little woman-big job" syndrome (which permeates the educational system) can be frustrating and requires extreme approaches sometime.
Best of luck.
exactly, but i did mean to stress not to walk in threatening to sue. just hint at it.
GREAT info and I will certainly look into this matter. Assuming that my university is the one you are referring to or that mine has a similar policy, how would one go about finding out whether or not my school within the university is subject to this policy? would this university policy supersede my school's policy? that will ultimately be the determining factor, as the policy of your particular example may or may not apply to my particular situation, but assuming that mine is the same or similar, it CLEARLY states that an "F" must be awarded based on the full semester's work. I have notified my classmates of the existence of this policy.
I have little doubt that the administrators will suggest that they are not subject to this, but whether or not this is true will be clearly laid out somewhere. I need to find out where that is.
THANK YOU for your efforts thus far!!!! this might be the turning point in my case. Its going to be difficult for them to refute such a policy, assuming my university has this one or a similar one....which it does.
I have little doubt that the administrators will suggest that they are not subject to this, but whether or not this is true will be clearly laid out somewhere. I need to find out where that is.
THANK YOU for your efforts thus far!!!! this might be the turning point in my case. Its going to be difficult for them to refute such a policy, assuming my university has this one or a similar one....which it does.