Not that I care either way but...
- Thread starter Dawgology
- Start date
Who do you root for? The Nazis, or the Soviets? I was hoping the Commies at Notre Dame could've beaten the Nazis at Florida State University.
Defenders are allowed contact with a receiver within 5 yards of the LOS... But this is different. A receiver can't go downfield and block someone before the ball is thrown. Number 20 for ND was CLEARLY blocking the guy and allowed the receiver to come open well before the ball was thrown. That was the right call all day long.
For the record, I was pulling for ND.
For the record, I was pulling for ND.
At first, I agreed that it's a block, but when they replayed it, the defender ran up and made the initial contact. The receiver didn't look like he was blocking. He looked like he was trying to run his route, but was getting 'bumped'. It's not as cut and dry as Herbstreit made it sound.
Yes it does matter who initiated contact. Thats the difference in Offensive vs Defensive Pass Interference in most cases. I didn't see the play and don't have an opinion on the call, but your statement isn't accurate.
If two receivers are running a scissor or gator route and DBs are playing man and get mixed up in one of the offensive players allowing the other to come open, thats not PI. Its a well designed play.
If a guy is running a crossing route and a linebacker initiates contact its not a penalty against the receiver.
If two receivers are running a scissor or gator route and DBs are playing man and get mixed up in one of the offensive players allowing the other to come open, thats not PI. Its a well designed play.
If a guy is running a crossing route and a linebacker initiates contact its not a penalty against the receiver.
There's a difference in blowing coverage and flat out getting pushed into somebody else.
If that's a legal play we should run it every. single. down.
If that's a legal play we should run it every. single. down.
It looked to me like a great acting job on fsu's part. Looked like the DB was probably holding the receiver and when the receiver tried to use his arm to break the hold, the fsu guy grabbed his arm and acted like he was the one being held.
Didn't have a good close up angle, but that would be my best guess from the slow mo replay.
In this case both receivers were literally engaged with their defender before the pass was thrown... It let the receiver come WIDE *** OPEN. My point was it doesn't matter if the defender or the receiver engaged first, but it was quite clear the receiver was nearly blocking the defender that was supposed to be covering the slot. It was offensive pass interference. You can run pick plays, so long as they don't look like pick plays. This was a clear pick play where the pick was engaged with a defender and not simply "running his route"
I can't stand either team. I would've rooted for a tie, but it would have probably locked up two playoff spots for those two.
As i said, i didn't see the play and dont care one way or the other.
but your statement is still wrong. It absolutely does matter who engaged first.
but your statement is still wrong. It absolutely does matter who engaged first.
I'm apparently doing a poor job of getting my point across...
You are correct in a true PI situation that who initiates contact first should get flagged. No arguments from me.
HOWEVER, the guy who made the statement that "the defender made contact first" on a receiver the ball WAS NOT GOING TO is not valid in this situation. The play was clearly a pick play. it was a trips right (bunch formation) and the two flankers' job was to clear out defenders and create a 1 on 1 to the slot (the guy closest to the QB in the bunch formation to the right) who was running an out route. See below:
You can see in the second picture below that the two defenders who's job was simply to clear out their defenders from the play, literally run into their defenders to pick off all 3 of them (the guy closest to the QB got flagged... it really should have been the far guy...). Either way, they are ENGAGED in a block with the defender before the ball is ever thrown. Now, if the receiver stayed in the back field (i.e., not move beyond the LOS), this is an entirely legal play. You would know this as a screen. HOWEVER, the receiver went beyond, and subsequently caught the ball beyond the LOS, meaning the receivers are illegally picking/blocking defenders prior to the pass being thrown. This allowed the slot to come WIDE *** OPEN in the endzone. Receivers don't just get open like that... not at this level.
That was my point... that it doesn't matter who "initiated contact" here, the receivers cannot intentionally impede the defender's progress toward the ball on a pass play beyond the LOS, which is what happened.
Pick plays are legal so long as they don't look like "pick plays..." the receivers must be somewhat convincing in the illusion that they are simply running their routes. That did not happen here.
ETA: Found a GIF of the play.
You are correct in a true PI situation that who initiates contact first should get flagged. No arguments from me.
HOWEVER, the guy who made the statement that "the defender made contact first" on a receiver the ball WAS NOT GOING TO is not valid in this situation. The play was clearly a pick play. it was a trips right (bunch formation) and the two flankers' job was to clear out defenders and create a 1 on 1 to the slot (the guy closest to the QB in the bunch formation to the right) who was running an out route. See below:
You can see in the second picture below that the two defenders who's job was simply to clear out their defenders from the play, literally run into their defenders to pick off all 3 of them (the guy closest to the QB got flagged... it really should have been the far guy...). Either way, they are ENGAGED in a block with the defender before the ball is ever thrown. Now, if the receiver stayed in the back field (i.e., not move beyond the LOS), this is an entirely legal play. You would know this as a screen. HOWEVER, the receiver went beyond, and subsequently caught the ball beyond the LOS, meaning the receivers are illegally picking/blocking defenders prior to the pass being thrown. This allowed the slot to come WIDE *** OPEN in the endzone. Receivers don't just get open like that... not at this level.
That was my point... that it doesn't matter who "initiated contact" here, the receivers cannot intentionally impede the defender's progress toward the ball on a pass play beyond the LOS, which is what happened.
Pick plays are legal so long as they don't look like "pick plays..." the receivers must be somewhat convincing in the illusion that they are simply running their routes. That did not happen here.
ETA: Found a GIF of the play.
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First time I've seen the play. Clearly a pick and offensive pass interference. Pick plays are only legal if the receiver doesn't actually run into the DB. What you want to do is run under him and make him take a longer route around you to get to the receiver. If you run into him, it's offensive interference every time.
Yup. If this were legal, every team would be running plays like this and guaranteeing themselves touchdowns on every trip. Pick plays are run at every level of the game, and that's fine. You have to make it LOOK like you aren't running a pick, though... and these guys did a piss poor job at that. You have to at least kinda try to avoid the defender, not engage contact with them.
You did a better job of making it that time.
I'll say this and its my last post on the topic. Seeing that video Notre Dame receivers did a terrible job on the pick. If they both run slant routes into those defenders and just 'get in the way' without putting their hands up in a blocking motion then I'd disagree with the call. Their technique was terrible due to them looking like they were blocking. Play was designed perfectly though.
The beauty of a great play call/design that is executed correctly is that you can't defend such a play.
I'll say this and its my last post on the topic. Seeing that video Notre Dame receivers did a terrible job on the pick. If they both run slant routes into those defenders and just 'get in the way' without putting their hands up in a blocking motion then I'd disagree with the call. Their technique was terrible due to them looking like they were blocking. Play was designed perfectly though.
The beauty of a great play call/design that is executed correctly is that you can't defend such a play.
No it doesn't matter who engaged first...
the defensive player is allowed to put his hands on the receiver and jam him as long as he's not holding and as long as the ball hasn't been thrown. If a WR engages a defensive player at all, it's blocking.. and if it occurs before the ball is thrown, it's illegal (unless the pass is completed behind the line of scrimmage). The receiver is allowed to use his hands to disengage from the defender, but that isn't what he did. He was blocking. And it was a penalty.
the defensive player is allowed to put his hands on the receiver and jam him as long as he's not holding and as long as the ball hasn't been thrown. If a WR engages a defensive player at all, it's blocking.. and if it occurs before the ball is thrown, it's illegal (unless the pass is completed behind the line of scrimmage). The receiver is allowed to use his hands to disengage from the defender, but that isn't what he did. He was blocking. And it was a penalty.
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If the ball hasn't been thrown it is not pass interference. If it is a pass interference call, it absolutely has to do with who engages who.
I clearly have stated at least 3 times I didn't see the specific play and don't care about the specific play. My post was about who engages first in pass interference situations.
I clearly have stated at least 3 times I didn't see the specific play and don't care about the specific play. My post was about who engages first in pass interference situations.
You said it 3 times and you're wrong 3 times....
Offensive PI occurs when an offensive player is blocking before the pass and the pass is thrown beyond the line of scrimmage. Period. It has nothing to do with who engaged who first. The defensive player is allowed to have hands on the offensive player as long as the ball isn't in the air (and as long as he's not holding). The offensive player is not allowed to put his hands on the defensive player to block until the pass has been thrown, except when the pass is completed behind the line of scrimmage... even if he got jammed first. He can use his hands/arms to disengage from the defender, but he CANNOT use his hands/arms to block, which is what he did. And that's why he correctly was called for OPI.
Offensive PI occurs when an offensive player is blocking before the pass and the pass is thrown beyond the line of scrimmage. Period. It has nothing to do with who engaged who first. The defensive player is allowed to have hands on the offensive player as long as the ball isn't in the air (and as long as he's not holding). The offensive player is not allowed to put his hands on the defensive player to block until the pass has been thrown, except when the pass is completed behind the line of scrimmage... even if he got jammed first. He can use his hands/arms to disengage from the defender, but he CANNOT use his hands/arms to block, which is what he did. And that's why he correctly was called for OPI.
Offensive PI occurs when an offensive player is blocking before the pass and the pass is thrown beyond the line of scrimmage. Period. It has nothing to do with who engaged who first. The defensive player is allowed to have hands on the offensive player as long as the ball isn't in the air (and as long as he's not holding).
If the ball isn't in the air, its not pass interference. Example in Notre Dame game, it was legal until he threw the ball. But yes, if the offensive player is blocking and QB throws the ball, its PI. If he is blocking, then he initiated contact.
The offensive player is not allowed to put his hands on the defensive player to block until the pass has been thrown, except when the pass is completed behind the line of scrimmage... even if he got jammed first.
Wrong. Maybe you meant until the pass was completed. If the ball is in the air, it would be offensive PI if the offensive player tried to block past the LOS.
He can use his hands/arms to disengage from the defender, but he CANNOT use his hands/arms to block, which is what he did. And that's why he correctly was called for OPI.
Again, as i've stated for now the 4th time. I didn't disagree with the call that was made in ND/FSU game. I didn't see it until after this thread. After seeing it, I agree with it.
My whole point was the wording of the post when I started on this topic was inaccurate or misleading.
If the ball isn't in the air, its not pass interference. Example in Notre Dame game, it was legal until he threw the ball. But yes, if the offensive player is blocking and QB throws the ball, its PI. If he is blocking, then he initiated contact.
The offensive player is not allowed to put his hands on the defensive player to block until the pass has been thrown, except when the pass is completed behind the line of scrimmage... even if he got jammed first.
Wrong. Maybe you meant until the pass was completed. If the ball is in the air, it would be offensive PI if the offensive player tried to block past the LOS.
He can use his hands/arms to disengage from the defender, but he CANNOT use his hands/arms to block, which is what he did. And that's why he correctly was called for OPI.
Again, as i've stated for now the 4th time. I didn't disagree with the call that was made in ND/FSU game. I didn't see it until after this thread. After seeing it, I agree with it.
My whole point was the wording of the post when I started on this topic was inaccurate or misleading.
I think it was not offensive PI...
#7 for ND ran his route and even looked back for the ball. He had a split second of contact as the defender ran up to engage him, but in full speed you can see #7 didn't "block" with any effort. So the question is #20.
The FSU defender grabbed #20 and didn't let go until just before the pass was caught. That's defensive holding and defensive PI. Even in the still pic, the ND's receiver's arm is DOWN and not even touching the defender. I can't see ND's #20's right arm, but since the defender ran to him, grabbed him, and never let go until the ball was in the air, it shouldn't matter. If the 3rd ND receiver wasn't open, it would have or should have been defensive PI.
You are correct in a true PI situation that who initiates contact first should get flagged. No arguments from me.
HOWEVER, the guy who made the statement that "the defender made contact first" on a receiver the ball WAS NOT GOING TO is not valid in this situation. The play was clearly a pick play. it was a trips right (bunch formation) and the two flankers' job was to clear out defenders and create a 1 on 1 to the slot (the guy closest to the QB in the bunch formation to the right) who was running an out route. See below:
You can see in the second picture below that the two defenders who's job was simply to clear out their defenders from the play, literally run into their defenders to pick off all 3 of them (the guy closest to the QB got flagged... it really should have been the far guy...). Either way, they are ENGAGED in a block with the defender before the ball is ever thrown. Now, if the receiver stayed in the back field (i.e., not move beyond the LOS), this is an entirely legal play. You would know this as a screen. HOWEVER, the receiver went beyond, and subsequently caught the ball beyond the LOS, meaning the receivers are illegally picking/blocking defenders prior to the pass being thrown. This allowed the slot to come WIDE *** OPEN in the endzone. Receivers don't just get open like that... not at this level.
That was my point... that it doesn't matter who "initiated contact" here, the receivers cannot intentionally impede the defender's progress toward the ball on a pass play beyond the LOS, which is what happened.
Pick plays are legal so long as they don't look like "pick plays..." the receivers must be somewhat convincing in the illusion that they are simply running their routes. That did not happen here.
ETA: Found a GIF of the play.
#7 for ND ran his route and even looked back for the ball. He had a split second of contact as the defender ran up to engage him, but in full speed you can see #7 didn't "block" with any effort. So the question is #20.
The FSU defender grabbed #20 and didn't let go until just before the pass was caught. That's defensive holding and defensive PI. Even in the still pic, the ND's receiver's arm is DOWN and not even touching the defender. I can't see ND's #20's right arm, but since the defender ran to him, grabbed him, and never let go until the ball was in the air, it shouldn't matter. If the 3rd ND receiver wasn't open, it would have or should have been defensive PI.
