Notre Dame Preview and Game Thread

[3397char]

I noticed that and was frustrated as well. It made me curious: a) is it OK to know that there is no way you will run down Hidalgo from behind? and b) how much does this indicate that Hidalgo is living rent0free in your head? She clearly had us rattled. That is not good.

In some plays where she had the breakaway steal, I will be charitable and say we were jogging to be positioned for a potential layup miss rebound as opposed to the contest. But there was one play I recall where we did not even get back for that; inexcusable.

 

[Jriv23]

I don't think so. Kate will be a freshman next year. Do you know how hard it is for a freshman to step in and be the Alpha. It is very hard; especially if you are not a phenom which she is not. As a freshmen, Kate is going to have to adjust to being in class, playing against coach level players and not high school players. She will be learning our system, etc. That is just not going to happen. Caleb Wilson is a phenom and it is the alpha for the men's team. Let me put it to you this way. HH is a phenom but when she came to ND, she was not the Alpha Dog of that team. The same can be said of Sarah Strong. She was not the alpha dog of UCONN last year. Paige B was the alpha. Kate is a very good player but she is not on the same level as HH, SS, JuJu, etc.

 

[3397char]

I don't think so. Kate will be a freshman next year. Do you know how hard it is for a freshman to step in and be the Alpha. It is very hard; especially if you are not a phenom which she is not. As a freshmen, Kate is going to have to adjust to being in class, playing against coach level players and not high school players. She will be learning our system, etc. That is just not going to happen. Caleb Wilson is a phenom and it is the alpha for the men's team. Let me put it to you this way. HH is a phenom but when she came to ND, she was not the Alpha Dog of that team. The same can be said of Sarah Strong. She was not the alpha dog of UCONN last year. Paige B was the alpha. Kate is a very good player but she is not on the same level as HH, SS, JuJu, etc.

I tend to agree with you that outright expecting a freshmen to carry a team is a tough ask. It is more off a could happen than a should happen.

With that said, Harpring is just as much of a potential phenom as anyone. Maybe not a generational player who will change the game like Latta, but there are at least a dozen freshmen each year who immediately make their team significantly better and there is no reason to write off Harpring now as a longshot.

Here are the top HS top-10 ranked freshman guards this season:

• #1 Aaliyah Chavez: 19.5 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.0 SPG (starter)
• #5 Jazzy Davidson: 16.7 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.8 SPG (starter)
• #6 Emilee Skinner: out injured for the year
• #8 Hailee Swain: 9.2 PPG, 2.4 RPG, 1.4 APG, 1.0 SPG (starter)
• #9 Dee Alexander: 6.4 PPG, 2.4 PPG, 1 APG, .5 SPG (out injured all preseason and played her first game Christmas week, has not yet started, seems to be on minutes restriction)
• #10 Divine Bourrage: 2.6 PPG, 2.1 RPG, 1.0 APG, 1.1 SPG (she is a back-up only averaging 12.7 MPG, backs up A-A or at least star level players MiLaysia Fulwiley and Flau'jae Johnson, so no surprise there)

So of the 4 who are healthy 2 are major contributors making their team significantly better. Injury should actually be our biggest concern. Any reason Consensus #2 recruit Harpring can't be one of those?

 

[Heelyeah#23]

I'm in the 'Banghart needs to be thanked for her contributions and let go' camp, but as other posters have said, that's not going to happen. But 2 things.

First, there still is time to right the ship, this season. We've all got a very bad taste in our mouths right now, but a W on Thursday against Miami, and things will look better.

Second (unrelated to first): hypothetical question. Just how bad of a win-loss record would be needed to get the right people to pay attention to the fact that maybe a coaching change should be entertained? Or, is it not win-loss, but how bad would recruiting results have to become? The best players are not going to want to come here, if we are not consistently in the Top 15, and if (as other posters have noted) the seats are empty. Is anybody paying attention?

Great question. We know how bad Hubert's record is against Quad 1 games over his tenure. What is CB's?

 

[3397char]

Please leave the analysis of Hubert Davis's coaching record to the MBB board.

 

[Jriv23]

I do not think you understand my definition of a phenom. My definition is a player who could go straight to the
WNBA if they was not required to go to college. Cheryl Miller could have done this. JuJu and HH could have done this. Candence Parker could have done this. CC could have done this. Paige B could have done this. I think some of us forgot that Paige won freshman of the year and player of the year her first year at UCONN. Maya Moore could have done this. The players you mentioned above could not have done this. There is a difference in talent level. Sarah Strong might have been able to do this.

 

[3397char]

I do not think you understand my definition of a phenom. My definition is a player who could go straight to the
WNBA if they was not required to go to college. Cheryl Miller could have done this. JuJu and HH could have done this. Candence Parker could have done this. CC could have done this. Paige B could have done this. I think some of us forgot that Paige won freshman of the year and player of the year her first year at UCONN. Maya Moore could have done this. The players you mentioned above could not have done this. There is a difference in talent level. Sarah Strong might have been able to do this.

It feels like you are applying a ton of hindsight bias here. We did not know what Hannah Hidalgo (#5 in her HS class) could do or would do in college until she got there and did it. And no, she would not have been drafted, much less stuck on an opening roster out of HS. Hidalgo falls more into teh Caitlyn Clark category of a player who looks even better in college than their high school ranking.

Sarah Strong and JuJu Watkins were #1s in their respective class. They immediately looked great in college, but like Clark and Hidalgo they were not seen as "phenoms" in high school, placing them clearly above #1 players in other years. Think of them as more like best-case scenario for Harpring.

Cheryl Miller, Candace Parker, Maya Moore and Paige Bueckers are different; each was not just #1 in their class, they came in with hype as generational players. I guess that is what you mean by phenom? If your argument is that Kate Harpring does not rise to the level of a generational player as of right now, then I agree with you. I think most everyone would. No one was making that argument.

But everyone you mentioned outside of HH was a #1 player in their class. In fact you mentioned half of the #1s in the last 8 years. To round out that list you can include:

1. 2018 Christyn Williams (started day 1 at UConn, double digit scorer, eventual 1st team A-A, WNBA 1st round)
2. 2019 Haley Jones - freshman starter averaging double digits before season ending injury, Final 4 MOP, 1st round pick)
3. 2020 Paige Bueckers- Generational player
4. 2021 Azzi Fudd - Injured after 4 games freshman year, eventually started and was a double digit scorer as a freshman, later NCAA Final 4 MOP, senior leader of UConn, the #1 team.
5. 2022 Lauren Betts - was reserve center at Stanford freshman year behind Cameron Brink, NDPOY and 1st Team A-A at UCLA
6. 2023 JuJu Watkins - NCAA Freshman scoring record, 1st team A-A
7. 2024 Sarah Strong - NFOY, 2nd Team A-A her freshman year
8. 2025 Jazzy Davidson: currently 16.4 PPG, 6.9 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.9 SPG (starter)

And here are the #2 players in those classes:

1. 2018 Charli Collier (reserve as freshman, All conf as a soph, 1st overall WNBA pick after declaring 2 years early)
2. 2019 Jordan Horston - starter, double digit scorer, lead team in assist and steals all as a freshman, later 2x All-SEC, HM A-A, 1st round WNBA
3. 2020 Angel Reese - scored 20 points in her first game, but injured and out on 4th game of her freshman season, later 2x 1st team A-A, 1st round pick
4. 2021 Raven Johnson - season ending injury in game 2, All-SEC freshman next season, All-SEC as a soph, started in 3 Final Fours, current senior leader of #2 UofSC)
5. 2022 Kiki Rice - started, averaged double digits and assist leader as a freshman, now an A-A as a junior
6. 2023 Mikaylah Williams - SEC Freshman of the year, double digit scorer as a freshman, Soph HM A-A
7. 2024 Jaloni Cambridge - B1G FOY, 1st Team B1G, HM A-A all her freshman year
8. 2025 Aaliyah Chavez: currently 19.5 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.0 SPG (starter)

(All from Hoopgurlz/ESPNW for consistency)

Harpring is a the #1 player according to On3, and a consensus #2 across the rating services. So these 16 women are her peers on paper. A couple of these women initially sat behind older A-A level players in front of them on stacked teams. Harpring will not have to worry about that. Assuming she stays healthy next year (a big assumption in WBB) she has about an 80% chance of making her team significantly better in year one, with a decent, but less than 50/50, chance of doing something truly special right out of the gate. And note that most of the women who did not splash as freshmen were bigs, not guards.

I understand, you are assessing that she is not a "phenom" in the eyes of most, but that is still more than possible as a ceiling in terms of what she actually does in college. We shall see. Yet the floor for just an OK year for a player of her rank should be really, really high.

And the eventual future looks bright. A supermajority of these women have "A-A" and WNBA 1st round in their bios.

 

[tarboy]

Bottom line we all just have to wait and see. Kate from all indications is going to be great and make the players around her that much better. I for one cannot wait for her to get here.

This years team could really use her talents as with RKelly's game being off we really need talent at guard.