One of the world's foremost climate scientist had this to say about the NOAA "adjustments"

WVPATX

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Georgia Tech climate scientist Judith Curry also chimed in, arguing that NOAA excluded extremely accurate sea buoy data in order to erase the hiatus in warming. Curry wrote that it “seems rather ironic, since this is the period where there is the greatest coverage of data with the highest quality of measurements — ARGO buoys and satellites don’t show a warming trend.”
“Nevertheless, the NOAA team finds a substantial increase in the ocean surface temperature anomaly trend since 1998,” she wrote. “This short paper in Science is not adequate to explain and explore the very large changes that have been made to the NOAA data set. The global surface temperature datasets are clearly a moving target. So while I’m sure this latest analysis from NOAA will be regarded as politically useful for the Obama administration, I don’t regard it as a particularly useful contribution to our scientific understanding of what is going on.”
 

op2

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Georgia Tech climate scientist Judith Curry also chimed in, arguing that NOAA excluded extremely accurate sea buoy data in order to erase the hiatus in warming. Curry wrote that it “seems rather ironic, since this is the period where there is the greatest coverage of data with the highest quality of measurements — ARGO buoys and satellites don’t show a warming trend.”
“Nevertheless, the NOAA team finds a substantial increase in the ocean surface temperature anomaly trend since 1998,” she wrote. “This short paper in Science is not adequate to explain and explore the very large changes that have been made to the NOAA data set. The global surface temperature datasets are clearly a moving target. So while I’m sure this latest analysis from NOAA will be regarded as politically useful for the Obama administration, I don’t regard it as a particularly useful contribution to our scientific understanding of what is going on.”

The problem is, you can't use experts as an authority if you only choose the small minority of experts that say what you want and then ignore the rest.
 

WVPATX

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The problem is, you can't use experts as an authority if you only choose the small minority of experts that say what you want and then ignore the rest.

Judith Curry doesn't question that global warming has occurred. She is simply pointing out the flaws in the NOAA 'adjustments."
 

WVPATX

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op2

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Judith Curry doesn't question that global warming has occurred. She is simply pointing out the flaws in the NOAA 'adjustments."

That makes your case even worse, not better.
 

DvlDog4WVU

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That makes your case even worse, not better.
She basically said that the adjustments NOAA made skew the data.

“This short paper in Science is not adequate to explain and explore the very large changes that have been made to the NOAA data set. The global surface temperature datasets are clearly a moving target. So while I’m sure this latest analysis from NOAA will be regarded as politically useful for the Obama administration, I don’t regard it as a particularly useful contribution to our scientific understanding of what is going on.”
 

WVPATX

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That makes your case even worse, not better.

I don't question that global warming has occurred. The planet has warmed ever since we came out of the Little Ice Age. The question has always been how much it has warmed , how much will it warm and what is man's role?
 
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op2

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She basically said that the adjustments NOAA made skew the data.

“This short paper in Science is not adequate to explain and explore the very large changes that have been made to the NOAA data set. The global surface temperature datasets are clearly a moving target. So while I’m sure this latest analysis from NOAA will be regarded as politically useful for the Obama administration, I don’t regard it as a particularly useful contribution to our scientific understanding of what is going on.”

If one climate scientist days climate change is not happening then that's one and then you take the whole bunch and see what they all say.

But apparently WVPATX is saying that this one climate scientist isn't even saying that climate change is wrong but rather has a disagreement about one particular detail in the debate.
 

op2

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I don't question that global warming has occurred. The planet has warmed ever since we came out of the Little Ice Age. The question has always been how much it has warmed , how much will it warm and what is man's role?

And what do the majority of climate scientists say about that?
 

WVPATX

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And what do the majority of climate scientists say about that?

Let me explain a few facts to you. The climate scientists have been wrong. Their models have all been wrong. They have all overestimated warming. Even the most recent IPCC report admitted the models were wrong and lowered their new forecasts. They still can't explain the 18 year pause. They still can't explain why the poles have more ice than ever recorded. Lot's more research and experience needs to be gained before we destroy the US and indeed the world's economy over this issue.
 
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op2

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Let me explain a few facts to you. The climate scientists have been wrong. Their models have all been wrong. They have all overestimated warming. Even the most recent IPCC report admitted the models were wrong and lowered their new forecasts. They still can't explain the 18 year pause. They still can't explain why the poles have more ice than ever recorded. Lot's more research and experience needs to be gained before we destroy the US and indeed the world's economy over this issue.

Okay then, the majority of climate scientists about climate change, you could save us all some trouble and state that that is your opinion up front.
 

WVPATX

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If one climate scientist days climate change is not happening then that's one and then you take the whole bunch and see what they all say.

But apparently WVPATX is saying that this one climate scientist isn't even saying that climate change is wrong but rather has a disagreement about one particular detail in the debate.

Judity Curry has acknowledged warming but is skeptical that man has caused the warming and agrees that the models have all been wrong. She believes the warming estimates are far too high.
 

mule_eer

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Let me explain a few facts to you. The climate scientists have been wrong. Their models have all been wrong. They have all overestimated warming. Even the most recent IPCC report admitted the models were wrong and lowered their new forecasts. They still can't explain the 18 year pause. They still can't explain why the poles have more ice than ever recorded. Lot's more research and experience needs to be gained before we destroy the US and indeed the world's economy over this issue.
The 18 year hiatus thing is what gets me. If you measure everything from an abnormal high data point, then you can argue no warming. If you look at the overall trend, we still have warming. You aren't doing algebra, you're doing statistical analysis. You can fit a line to the data, although that may or may not be the best model for it. You can also do other techniques to fit the data - adaptive filters or the like to try to model. Those may work better for a fit, although long term projections can be a little harder to come by based on those models. Also, those models require some knowledge of the physical process and design to try to emulate that. I'll have to read some more of the NOAA work to see what they are really doing with that data.
 

WVPATX

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The 18 year hiatus thing is what gets me. If you measure everything from an abnormal high data point, then you can argue no warming. If you look at the overall trend, we still have warming. You aren't doing algebra, you're doing statistical analysis. You can fit a line to the data, although that may or may not be the best model for it. You can also do other techniques to fit the data - adaptive filters or the like to try to model. Those may work better for a fit, although long term projections can be a little harder to come by based on those models. Also, those models require some knowledge of the physical process and design to try to emulate that. I'll have to read some more of the NOAA work to see what they are really doing with that data.

A group of scientists are now investigating NOAA and the adjustments they have made to actual temperature measurements. Not sure when they are to conclude their analysis. The criticism from skeptics is that the NOAA adjustments all go in one direction. To make the past colder and the present warmer. Unless there is a big anomoly, the adjustments should be going in both directions.

Perhaps more importantly, it is argued that satellite measurements are far better than land based mearurements which are the only measurements used by NOAA. Further, Judity Curry has posted:

In my opinion, the gold standard dataset for global ocean surface temperatures is the UK dataset, HadSST3. A review of the uncertainties is given in this paper by John Kennedy http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadsst3/uncertainty.html. Note, the UK group has dealt with the same issues raised by the NOAA team. I personally see no reason to the use the NOAA ERSST dataset, I do not see any evidence that the NOAA group has done anywhere near as careful a job as the UK group in processing the ocean temperatures.
 

mule_eer

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Without researching this myself, I don't know who is really in the right on the questions about the data analysis. I will say this though. I work as a mathematician/statistician in a field dominated by physicists and engineers. I've seen some people do some very sketchy data analysis for various reasons - high order fits with no explanation why something should be best fit by a 23 degree polynomial, someone criticizing decision analysis with his model that was correct on sign of a change less than 50% of the time. I've also worked with some folks from NOAA several years ago - not related to climate change, but how they use some systems I'm familiar with for forecasting models. Those folks are pretty much my impression of NOAA, and that's positive. I don't know that I can extrapolate that to NOAA as a whole. I don't want to make that assumption.
 

WhiteTailEER

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They still can't explain the 18 year pause.

Say it with me "THERE IS NO 18 YEAR PAUSE!!"

The "hiatus" that they speak of doesn't reflect no change, it reflects a SLOWING of the WARMING trend. Put another way. They aren't saying it isn't warming, but that in this 18 year period it isn't warming as quickly.

I'll try to put it even more simply. Let's say you are headed to the beach and for the first 6 hours of your trip you are averaging 80 mph, and then you hit traffic and for 2 hours you only average 40 mph. Are you still getting closer to the beach? Yes. Just not as fast as before. Provided you don't come to a stop or put it in reverse, you're still going the same direction.

The report TarHeel linked actually indicates that this "hiatus" isn't even accurate because it's based on starting the period in an abnormally high "El Nino" year. Isn't 18 kind of an odd number of years to pick? Why not 5? Or 10? Or 20? Because if you pick any of those other numbers the start isn't at an abnormally high year and the argument falls apart.

2014 was the highest temperature on record. How can that be if there hasn't been any warming in the last 18 years?
 

WVPATX

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Say it with me "THERE IS NO 18 YEAR PAUSE!!"

The "hiatus" that they speak of doesn't reflect no change, it reflects a SLOWING of the WARMING trend. Put another way. They aren't saying it isn't warming, but that in this 18 year period it isn't warming as quickly.

I'll try to put it even more simply. Let's say you are headed to the beach and for the first 6 hours of your trip you are averaging 80 mph, and then you hit traffic and for 2 hours you only average 40 mph. Are you still getting closer to the beach? Yes. Just not as fast as before. Provided you don't come to a stop or put it in reverse, you're still going the same direction.

The report TarHeel linked actually indicates that this "hiatus" isn't even accurate because it's based on starting the period in an abnormally high "El Nino" year. Isn't 18 kind of an odd number of years to pick? Why not 5? Or 10? Or 20? Because if you pick any of those other numbers the start isn't at an abnormally high year and the argument falls apart.

2014 was the highest temperature on record. How can that be if there hasn't been any warming in the last 18 years?

You are apparently using NOAA figures which use imprecise ground based measurements. Satellite measurements, are much more accurate and show no warmoing. Here is a pretty concise, easy to understand explanation.

James TaylorContributor
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I am senior fellow for environment policy at the Heartland Institute and managing editor of Environment & Climate News. I write about energy and environment issues, frequently focusing on global warming. I have presented environmental analysis on CNN, CNN Headline News, CBS Evening News, MSNBC, Fox News Channel, and several national radio programs. My environmental analysis has been published in virtually every major newspaper in the United States. I studied atmospheric science and majored in government at Dartmouth College. I obtained my Juris Doctorate from Syracuse University.

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Opinion8/07/2014 @ 10:29AM117,899 views
Global Warming Pause Puts 'Crisis' In Perspective
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Much has been written and argued, from all sides in the global warming debate, about the meaning of the asserted 17-year pause in global warming. Is a 17-year pause significant? Is a pause even occurring? Does the pause signal a longer-term halt to global warming or even a long-term cooling trend? Would a resumption of global warming to pre-pause rates end the global warming debate? A look at recent temperatures and their appropriate context provides helpful meaning to the much-discussed global warming pause.
Satellite instruments began uniformly measuring temperatures throughout the Earth’s lower atmosphere in 1979. Climate scientists overseeing these NASA satellite instruments produced the chart below showing the following temperature trends:
  • a plateau of temperatures, with absolutely no warming, from 1979 through 1997
  • a large temperature spike in 1998
  • a return to the 1979-1997 mean in 1999-2000
  • a modest escalation of temperatures in 2001
  • an elevated plateau of essentially flat temperatures from 2002-2014

Source: drroyspencer.com
If we choose a starting point of mid-1998, the planet has cooled during the past 16 years. If we choose a starting point of late 1997 or early 1999, temperatures have been flat during the past 15 and 17 years. Examining the totality of the 35-year temperature record, we see approximately 1/3 of 1 degree Celsius warming during the period. Accordingly, global warming has occurred at a pace of approximately 1 degree Celsius per century over the duration of the satellite record.
So what can we glean from the temperature data? Thirty-five year temperature trends are likely more meaningful than 17-year temperature trends. Nevertheless, 17-year temperature trends are nothing to sneeze at. Either way, whether the global temperature pause continues or not, temperatures have risen much more slowly than United Nations computer model predictions.
Computer models, of course, are only as accurate as their programmed data, formulas, and assumptions. The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) acknowledges there are many components to climate change for which climate scientists are merely making their best guesses. The IPCC-affiliated scientists have made guesses that the unknown climate components will dramatically accelerate the modest warming caused directly by human carbon dioxide emissions. So-called climate skeptics have argued the UN guesses consistently overestimate the warming propensity of the unknown climate components.
The real-world temperature data appear to support the skeptics. Even before the recent global warming pause, temperatures were warming at a relatively modest pace. The ongoing global warming pause is rendering the longer-term pace of warming still more modest.
IPCC computer models dating from 1990 through the present have consistently predicted at least 2.4 degrees of global warming per century. Such warming would require at least 0.24 degrees Celsius per decade, for which we should see at least 0.80 degrees Celsius warming since 1979. However, real-world warming since 1979 is occurring at less than half that pace. And there has been absolutely no real-world warming during the past 17 years.
IPCC adherents claim short-term variance is masking longer-term climate trends. According to this line of reasoning, the 35 years since 1979 are simply not long enough to form meaningful conclusions about the longer-term pace of global warming. This line of argument is unpersuasive for two important reasons: First, the admittedly less reliable ground-based mercury temperature readings from the mid-1940s through the late 1970s reported global cooling during the three decades immediately prior to the satellite era. Accordingly, the time period for which real-world temperatures are not rising nearly as rapidly as IPCC predictions is now not just 35 years, but approximately 70 years. Second, and even ignoring the 1940s-1970s global cooling, for global temperatures to meet IPCC’s predicted 2.4 degree rise by late this century, global temperatures must immediately – and that means immediately – begin rising at a sustained 0.30 degrees Celsius per decade. That has never come close to occurring during our modern warm period, and the ongoing global warming pause suggests that is unlikely to begin happening any time in the foreseeable future, either.
The El Nino/La Nina oscillation, moreover, provides some interesting context to the Earth’s recent temperature history. El Ninos warm the global climate while La Ninas cool the global climate. The 1998 global temperature spike was associated with the strongest El Nino in modern history. Also, El Ninos dominated the global climate from the late 1970s through the mid-2000s. Since 2007, however, modest La Nina conditions have prevailed.
The ongoing global warming pause is likely being assisted by the recent modest La Ninas. At some point between now and 2030, however, the cycle should flip back to one dominated by El Ninos. When that occurs, it is likely that global temperatures will again rise.
The ongoing global warming pause and the longer-term temperature record, however, indicate any future El Nino-assisted temperature rise will likely be modest once again. If the IPCC’s guesses on unknown climate components were correct, global temperatures would still be rising – even during this La Nina phase – at a fairly rapid pace. Moreover, global temperatures should have risen much more rapidly than was the case during the last El Nino phase. If IPCC model predictions were relatively accurate, global warming should be occurring at a pace of approximately 0.15 degrees Celsius per decade during La Ninas and approximately 0.35 degrees Celsius per decade during El Ninos. Neither has even come close to occurring in the real-world temperature record.
Pulling this all together, we can reach the following conclusions:
  • The global warming pause is real.
  • The global warming pause is significant.
  • The global warming pause is not likely to be permanent.
  • A future resumption of global warming at pre-pause rates – or even modestly accelerated rates – would not validate IPCC global warming predictions, and would instead continue to undermine the IPCC’s predictions of very rapid 21st century global warming.
  • The most meaningful aspect of the global warming pause isn’t that temperatures have flattened for 17 years, but rather that the global warming pause extends and solidifies the longer-term record of smaller-than-predicted global temperature rise.
 

WhiteTailEER

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Anybody that looks at that chart and doesn't see a warming trend is being intellectually dishonest with themselves.
 

op2

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A non-scientist lawyer working for a political think tank, what could possibly be wrong with that?
 
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WVPATX

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Anybody that looks at that chart and doesn't see a warming trend is being intellectually dishonest with themselves.

Again, we are emerging from a mini ice age. Therefore the planet is warming. Is that trend due to natural variability or CO2? Why have all the models been wrong in that they have dramatically overstated forecasted warming.
 
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op2

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Can you cite one error in the temperature facts that he presents?

I could if given the time to delve into it. The larger question though is why you would cite this guy in the first place. And why does his graph as 1998 as a high point and why does he say there is a pause when people that, you know, are scientists that study this stuff for a living say otherwise?

Think about this, you're saying that a bunch of people trained in this field and who study it for a living are to be ignored in favor of a non-expert in the field that works for a political think tank. Think!
 
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WhiteTailEER

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Can you cite one error in the temperature facts that he presents?

Yes, he claims a 17 year plateau when there is clearly a warming trend in the very data he presents. So, no, I guess I don't see an error in the FACTS he presents, just the conclusion he draws from those facts.

I find it funny how so many of the skeptics point to scientists and grant funding and state that they HAVE to reach the conclusions they do to keep getting grant money. Basically calling into question the ethics and integrity of an entire field. And yet, those scientists don't go on the news shows looking for publicity. They don't start their bio with all the news shows they've been on, but the person that DOES do that is more trustworthy? The guy promoting himself and looking for fame and more publicity?
 
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WVPATX

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I could if given the time to delve into it. The larger question though is why you would cite this guy in the first place. And why does his graph as 1998 as a high point and why does he say there is a pause when people that, you know, are scientists that study this stuff for a living say otherwise?

Think about this, you're saying that a bunch of people trained in this field and who study it for a living are to be ignored in favor of a non-expert in the field that works for a political think tank. Think!

It was an easy to understand article so I thought libs like you might find it useful. It is very telling you can't duspute the facts that he presents. And many scientists do disagree with the warmists. When you can factually explain why all the climate models have been wrong, you'll capture my attention.
 

op2

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It was an easy to understand article so I thought libs like you might find it useful. It is very telling you can't duspute the facts that he presents. And many scientists do disagree with the warmists. When you can factually explain why all the climate models have been wrong, you'll capture my attention.

What the hell do the climate models have to do with whether the earth is warming? Nothing.
 

WVPATX

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Yes, he claims a 17 year plateau when there is clearly a warming trend in the very data he presents. So, no, I guess I don't see an error in the FACTS he presents, just the conclusion he draws from those facts.

I find it funny how so many of the skeptics point to scientists and grant funding and state that they HAVE to reach the conclusions they do to keep getting grant money. Basically calling into question the ethics and integrity of an entire field. And yet, those scientists don't go on the news shows looking for publicity. They don't start their bio with all the news shows they've been on, but the person that DOES do that is more trustworthy? The guy promoting himself and looking for fame and more publicity?

1/3 of 1 degree C over the last 35 years is very, very minor warming and may be natural variability. "Hide the decline", right?
 
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op2

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I've explained the models and the inaccuracies ... he'll ignore it and stick with his worn out rhetoric.

The thing is, even GOP POTUS candidates are coming around, so the interesting part will be to see how long the likes of WVPATX and TarHeelEer hang on. Will we get to the point where it will be mainstream Republicanism to acknowledge it and yet these guys will still be saying it's not happening? Are the going to latch on to some fringe 3rd party at that point?
 

op2

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1/3 of 1 degree C over the last 35 years is very, very minor warming and may be natural variability. "Hide the decline", right?

Is 1/3 of 1 degree C over 35 years a minor change in terms of natural variation?

And from that graph isn't it more like 0.6 degrees C over 44 years?
 

WVPATX

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I've explained the models and the inaccuracies ... he'll ignore it and stick with his worn out rhetoric.

You guys are very dense. It is the models that the scientists use to forecast their dire predictions and upon which politicians base their policies. If the models are wong we may spend trillions of dollars to fight somehting that is naturally occurring which would be a huge waste of money. But libs typically don't care about wasting money so I understand your zeal.
 
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WVPATX

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Is 1/3 of 1 degree C over 35 years a minor change in terms of natural variation?

And from that graph isn't it more like 0.6 degrees C over 44 years?

The chart doesn't cover 44 years. I believe he calculated the mean temperature over the period and measured it against the current temperature. Thus the .33 degree increase.
 
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Okay then, the majority of climate scientists about climate change, you could save us all some trouble and state that that is your opinion up front.

They even changed the name of it from "global warming" to "climate change" because they knew it wasn't warming like their models said it should be... so they changed it to "climate change" so they could still claim there was an issue and funnel additional money to their buddies doing the "research" and developing the "green energy".
 
May 29, 2001
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You guys are very dense. It is the models that the scientists use to forecast their dire predictions and upon which politicians base their policies. If the models are wong we may spend trillions of dollars to fight somehting that is naturally occurring which would be a huge waste of money. But libs typically don't care about wasting money so I understand your zeal.

ding ding ding! We have a winner, but these guys will never understand this. Garbage in, garbage out plus some of the assumptions they made in their models have been way off and very different than what has actually happened. Everyone involved (mainly the government and green companies being given major handouts from the government) is too deep into it and will do whatever they can to skew the data to further their agenda. And if you think there aren't lots of scientists out there who can be bought or just flat make mistakes with data interpretation, you are sadly mistaken.
 

TarHeelEer

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Anybody that looks at that chart and doesn't see a warming trend is being intellectually dishonest with themselves.

Anyone who can't see no warming since at least 2002, arguably earlier(El-Nino messes it up), is also being dishonest.
 

SteelHeadEer

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It was an easy to understand article so I thought libs like you might find it useful. It is very telling you can't duspute the facts that he presents. And many scientists do disagree with the warmists. When you can factually explain why all the climate models have been wrong, you'll capture my attention.


The bolded tells me everything I need to know here.

Billions of people spewing out co2 and industrial pants and cars spewing out co2 while we keep cutting down trees and jungle. It amazes me that people cannot see the stress the earth is under from population and pollution.

Instead of arguing over " climate change ", why don't you guys get in a debate about the mass dying off of the worlds population of bees?

I would love to see you " libs " and " conservs " go at it about that.

Coming to this board is like seeing fox news and msnbc in the same thread.

I challenge anyone here to not watch or read anything from the far right or far left for one month and see how much better you feel.