Oregon wingnuts taking over a federal building because their fellow

[countryroads89_rivals]

I believe there's an estimate somewhere that there's at least a 20% waste in all govt programs. That includes defense, 400 million for a gas station in AFghanistan( I wonder what the 399,550,000 slush fund was used to pad) . I'm for auditing everything and firing govt workers for malfeasance and even prosecuting them. Govt is wasteful and the evidence shows it. We should give the military an ultimatum to close bases not needed and cut all govt spending by 10%. Make each agency weed out the corruption and overpayments or be fired. We have way too much waste and fraud. Beccause it might be difficult to weed out doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

I'm not denying there is some waste in government and even occasional fraud and abuse. But I really wish you would become friends with a couple of federal employees. You would find out that they are very cost conscious and care about being efficient. You would also find out that they have families, contribute to society by volunteering in communities, etc. etc.

Attitudes like yours, and many conservatives, that federal employees are worms and worthless and waste money, etc. really bothers me. It is very ignorant. Many federal employees are doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, etc. and are very educated and hard working individuals.

 

[countryroads89_rivals]

Should they have been charged under the Anti-Terror act? That's at the base of the argument as well. The jury had found them guilty or arson and acquitted them of other charges...while the jury was still deliberating they reached a deal with the Feds...maybe their attorney should have done a better job of educating them on the possible circumstances. Then again did the Feds have to appeal?

They were found guilty of arson of federal property. There is a minimum sentence of five years. It's really not complicated. The judge has to follow the minimum sentencing.

 

[WVUCOOPER]

Should they have been charged under the Anti-Terror act? That's at the base of the argument as well. The jury had found them guilty or arson and acquitted them of other charges...

I'm guessing arson on federal land fell under the Anti-terrorism act. In that case, yes.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Should they have been charged under the Anti-Terror act? That's at the base of the argument as well. The jury had found them guilty or arson and acquitted them of other charges...while the jury was still deliberating they reached a deal with the Feds...maybe their attorney should have done a better job of educating them on the possible circumstances. Then again did the Feds have to appeal?

That's the part I don't understand, and I mentioned it earlier. The prosecution said that they never proclaimed them to be terrorists, so I'm guessing that arson of federal property is only covered under the blanket of "anti-terror" or something, so they had to go to that to charge them with the arson. I suppose the Feds probably didn't have to appeal, they probably could have let it go, but maybe they settled on the plea bargain they did with the idea that it carried the mandatory sentence. Then when the Hammonds got a lesser sentence, the Feds went back to appeal because that's not what they were looking for.

You make a good point about their attorney. It was really their attorney's job to keep them from entering into the deal if they weren't comfortable with the mandatory sentence. The prosecution has one job to do, the defense has another.

 

[Airport]

I'm not denying there is some waste in government and even occasional fraud and abuse. But I really wish you would become friends with a couple of federal employees. You would find out that they are very cost conscious and care about being efficient. You would also find out that they have families, contribute to society by volunteering in communities, etc. etc.

Attitudes like yours, and many conservatives, that federal employees are worms and worthless and waste money, etc. really bothers me. It is very ignorant. Many federal employees are doctors, lawyers, engineers, scientists, etc. and are very educated and hard working individuals.

There are too many of them. Look at the abuses at the IRS, if you're honest, the IG has found the lost emails of Lerner. Koskinen should have fired for lying. He never looked. The postal service needs to be trimmed back to what a normal business would do. Just because you are a good person doesn't mean you are entitled to a job. A lot of good people have lost jobs in the recession, not govt employees. Why is that? I've lost 30% of my income due to the recession, why haven't postal employees been layed off like many others? I'm sorry if you think I don't care, I do but I care about all the other Americans who work everyday and pay their taxes and don't have a ridiculous pension program or can retire after 20 -30 years. If you read my post I said every govt program including defense. We can easily cut 10% out of the govt without hurting anything. Waste can be found. Bridges to nowhere. Our own congressman, Goodlatte, fought the federal govt saying the federal building here didn't need to be rebricked. Guess what, it was and then the brick was found to have been put on improperly and had to be torn down and redone. Guess who paid? You and me. It goes on everywhere and everybody should be incensed. Payments to dead people. Do I really need to go on?

 

[Airport]

There is definitely waste. I'm all for looking at ways to minimize that waste, fraud and abuse. I'm just saying that we should also be careful to not harm the people that aren't abusing the system. It's really not much different than the argument gun owners use when more gun control is proposed. "Why punish me for what other people are doing?" That may not be the best correlation to try to make, but I'll run with it.

Owning a gun is protected and granted in the constitution. Increasing welfare payments for having more and more babies is not. I would also say that most people who own a gun, paid for it themselves or it was given to them by someone. The govt is only asked with keeping us safe. The great society isn't part of the constitution.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

Owning a gun is protected and granted in the constitution. Increasing welfare payments for having more and more babies is not. I would also say that most people who own a gun, paid for it themselves or it was given to them by someone. The govt is only asked with keeping us safe. The great society isn't part of the constitution.

I knew I was walking into a hornet's nest with that comparison. I completely understand your point, but that's not really where I was going with it.

 

[Airport]

I knew I was walking into a hornet's nest with that comparison. I completely understand your point, but that's not really where I was going with it.

I have seen generations of welfare patients. It's a way of life. It needs to change. You can't legislate jobs but you can make it harder to get welfare and to stay on it. It was, until Obama decided to increase everything. The inner city is full of what govt programs provide and what they provide isn't worth having.

 

[WhiteTailEER]

I have seen generations of welfare patients. It's a way of life. It needs to change. You can't legislate jobs but you can make it harder to get welfare and to stay on it. It was, until Obama decided to increase everything. The inner city is full of what govt programs provide and what they provide isn't worth having.

You'll get no argument from me there. I'm completely disgusted by the generational welfare mindset. However, not everybody that is receiving government assistance falls into that category. What I don't know is what percentage of recipients legitimately use it as a helping hand in times of need and what percentage are the generational welfare group. I'm not interested in hearing opinions on that matter, I'd like to know, if there's anyway to really know. i.e. what kind of records are kept to track it. My suspicion is that since there is no time limit that nobody is bothering to engage in the expense and time of trying to track it. However, how can you solve a problem if you can't quantify it? And equally, how can you gauge effectiveness of something that can't be quantified?

 

[Popeer]

I'm sorry if you think I don't care, I do but I care about all the other Americans who work everyday and pay their taxes and don't have a ridiculous pension program or can retire after 20-30 years.

What, you think we don't come to work every day and pay taxes just like the rest of you? Here's a news flash for you: We're Americans too. And my "ridiculous" pension program (that I pay into) will pay me 1 percent of the average of my highest three years of salary, times the number of years that I served. As of today that would be about $32,000 a year. And here's the thing: If being a civil servant is such a sweet ride, why aren't people beating down the doors of the government to get in? Go to USAjobs.gov and look at the thousands of jobs that are available.

 

[Airport]

What, you think we don't come to work every day and pay taxes just like the rest of you? Here's a news flash for you: We're Americans too. And my "ridiculous" pension program (that I pay into) will pay me 1 percent of the average of my highest three years of salary, times the number of years that I served. As of today that would be about $32,000 a year. And here's the thing: If being a civil servant is such a sweet ride, why aren't people beating down the doors of the government to get in? Go to USAjobs.gov and look at the thousands of jobs that are available.

I provide my own pension. I help provide yours. Look, I stand by my statement, government is wasteful by nature. We need to cut everything in govt to get as much govt as we need. That includes the defense dept so you don't think I'm biased. Government waste is rampant.

 

[countryroads89_rivals]

What, you think we don't come to work every day and pay taxes just like the rest of you? Here's a news flash for you: We're Americans too. And my "ridiculous" pension program (that I pay into) will pay me 1 percent of the average of my highest three years of salary, times the number of years that I served. As of today that would be about $32,000 a year. And here's the thing: If being a civil servant is such a sweet ride, why aren't people beating down the doors of the government to get in? Go to USAjobs.gov and look at the thousands of jobs that are available.

Another idiot that believes exactly what Fox News tells them to believe. They don't understand the federal retirement system was overhauled 25 years ago to require employees to pay into the stock market for their retirement.

 

[Marleer_rivals726856]

Another idiot that believes exactly what Fox News tells them to believe. They don't understand the federal retirement system was overhauled 25 years ago to require employees to pay into the stock market for their retirement.

You still can't get fired for even fornicating small farm animals. Look, just don't hire new employees for awhile. Private industry has laid off workers, cut back hours and fed employees have increased at a great cost to the public. Why? I said, i cut my salary by 20%, I cut my employees by hours by25%, why shouldn't govt have to abide by the same rules. If govt revenue goes down, so does employment. Want more govt employees, quit passing laws that stifle employment like Obamacare.

 

[Marleer_rivals726856]

What, you think we don't come to work every day and pay taxes just like the rest of you? Here's a news flash for you: We're Americans too. And my "ridiculous" pension program (that I pay into) will pay me 1 percent of the average of my highest three years of salary, times the number of years that I served. As of today that would be about $32,000 a year. And here's the thing: If being a civil servant is such a sweet ride, why aren't people beating down the doors of the government to get in? Go to USAjobs.gov and look at the thousands of jobs that are available.

How about you try and get a job in the private sector that have been decimated by laws that this administration and congress has passed? The private sector hires what they can afford , it's time for govt to do the same.

 

[MountaineerWV]

How about you try and get a job in the private sector that have been decimated by laws that this administration and congress has passed? The private sector hires what they can afford , it's time for govt to do the same.

Here's an idea. How about we stop forcing college down our youths throats and train them to be trained and skilled workers to enter the workforce, instead of getting in to $50-100K debt and struggle finding a job that they most likely won't use their degree for anyway? I'm going through that with my kid, drives me nuts. This crap that they bring home from high school, ridiculous. A lot of people are to blame for this. Too many point their fingers at the teachers, guidance counselors, and principals. They must do what they are told to do, which is push "college, college, college....get that degree....do well on this test....that test....pressure pressure pressure".