OT: Civil War Buffs

[zappaa]

Saw an interesting documentary recently about the instance of young white Northern soldiers heading south to fight for the Confederacy was a far higher rate than the opposite, southern kids heading north.
The brother against brother happened at the border states like Missouri where brothers went in opposite directions and actually engaged in battles against each other.
Another crazy thing I heard, was there was a weird anti-establishment appeal to go fight for the south if you were an uneducated young white kid from the north.

The appeal supposedly had nothing to do with defending slavery and everything to do with the allure of running away and becoming a rebellious, renegade Rebel.
Is anyone familiar with this?
I thought it interesting.

 

[RUkhoury]

What documentary was this? Was a "civil war era studies" minor at Gettysburg and don't recall reading about this. And yes, brother v. brother literally existed, in VA, MD and to a lesser extent PA. However family v family was more prevalent than the former, but still both were highly uncommon.

 

[zappaa]

What documentary was this? Was a "civil war era studies" minor at Gettysburg and don't recall reading about this. And yes, brother v. brother literally existed, in VA, MD and to a lesser extent PA. However family v family was more prevalent than the former, but still both were highly uncommon.

Saw it on history channel where a civil war historian was talking about uneducated young northers being enticed to head south and be a renegade.
The allure of being a Rebel has always been a thing, even today.

 

[zappaa]

Would’nt be surprised if many were from New Jersey.
After all, our state voted against Lincoln twice....lol

 

[mdk02]

Funny. A day or so ago I saw a discussion on CSPAN-3 about immigrants fighting in the Civil War. Apparently there were Union regiments that were 100% German immigrants, mainly from what is now the Rust Belt and actually used the German language for communications and orders. There was still some anti-immigrant/anti-German sentiment in the North and many of these regiments were commanded of English descendants. And if there was a lost battle the Northern press blamed the German soldiers even when the battle plan devised by their English commanders was FUBAR. A more well known fact were regiments that were 100% Irish immigrants.

 

[Proud NJ Sports Fan]

Now family members snitch on each other to the FBI

 

[Joey Bags]

Commentaries on the Civil war now tend to view things in a black and white view whereas the political and social climate at the time was more nuanced.

There were many other factors at play in addition to slavery which attracted people to fight for the South. Abe was widely viewed as an authoritarian at the time who pushed the boundaries of the constitution and that attracted a fair amount of sympathy in the North's to the South's cause.

 

[hoquat63]

Funny. A day or so ago I saw a discussion on CSPAN-3 about immigrants fighting in the Civil War. Apparently there were Union regiments that were 100% German immigrants, mainly from what is now the Rust Belt and actually used the German language for communications and orders. There was still some anti-immigrant/anti-German sentiment in the North and many of these regiments were commanded of English descendants. And if there was a lost battle the Northern press blamed the German soldiers even when the battle plan devised by their English commanders was FUBAR. A more well known fact were regiments that were 100% Irish immigrants.

Quite a few German born generals for the north - Franz Siegel most well known. German immigrants in his command used to say @we fights mit Siegel”. Wasn’t a great general, his critics said “we retreats mit Siegel. Less well known, August Willichwho contested with Marx for control of Communist movement in Germany. Also Carl Schurz and Alexander Schimmelpfennug plus many others who fled Germany after the failed 1848 rebellions in Europe.
Lots of soldiers disliked the German soldiers. After the defeat at Chancellorsville, where Jackson’s flank attack hit O O Howard’s German units, the were called Howard’s cowards and the Flying Dutchmen because they were routed by the attack.

 

[e5fdny]

Funny. A day or so ago I saw a discussion on CSPAN-3 about immigrants fighting in the Civil War. Apparently there were Union regiments that were 100% German immigrants, mainly from what is now the Rust Belt and actually used the German language for communications and orders. There was still some anti-immigrant/anti-German sentiment in the North and many of these regiments were commanded of English descendants. And if there was a lost battle the Northern press blamed the German soldiers even when the battle plan devised by their English commanders was FUBAR. A more well known fact were regiments that were 100% Irish immigrants.

Read up on the draft riots during the period.

Violent, violent times.

 

[zappaa]

Quite a few German born generals for the north - Franz Siegel most well known. German immigrants in his command used to say @we fights mit Siegel”. Wasn’t a great general, his critics said “we retreats mit Siegel. Less well known, August Willichwho contested with Marx for control of Communist movement in Germany. Also Carl Schurz and Alexander Schimmelpfennug plus many others who fled Germany after the failed 1848 rebellions in Europe.
Lots of soldiers disliked the German soldiers. After the defeat at Chancellorsville, where Jackson’s flank attack hit IO Howard’s German units, the were called Howard’s cowards and the Flying Dutchmen because they were routed by the attack.

Jeepers

 

[hoquat63]

Also a number of units composed of NYC fire companies. Did not Have the best reputation either. Of course fire fighting was a rough and tumble affair with competing companies fighting each other over who should put out the fire while the building burned.

 

[RUkhoury]

Funny. A day or so ago I saw a discussion on CSPAN-3 about immigrants fighting in the Civil War. Apparently there were Union regiments that were 100% German immigrants, mainly from what is now the Rust Belt and actually used the German language for communications and orders. There was still some anti-immigrant/anti-German sentiment in the North and many of these regiments were commanded of English descendants. And if there was a lost battle the Northern press blamed the German soldiers even when the battle plan devised by their English commanders was FUBAR. A more well known fact were regiments that were 100% Irish immigrants.

yup GGG Grandpa fought for the NY 41st "DeKalb" regiment B, almost all German immigrants

 

[e5fdny]

Also a number of units composed of NYC fire companies. Did not Haverhill best reputation either. Of course fire fighting was a rough and tumble affair with competing companies fighting each other over who should put out the fire while the building burned.

Absolute brawls while fighting over the hydrant. Scary, scary stuff.

It's why the junior man is still called the "johnny" since back in the day it was his job to secure the hydrant, nicknamed johnny pump (possiby because the inventers name was John), by "any means neccessary" and I do mean by any means. LOL

But the draft riots I mentioned earlier where a lot of the Irish were the main culprits was really, really bad.

 

[mdk02]

Quite a few German born generals for the north - Franz Siegel most well known. German immigrants in his command used to say @we fights mit Siegel”. Wasn’t a great general, his critics said “we retreats mit Siegel. Less well known, August Willichwho contested with Marx for control of Communist movement in Germany. Also Carl Schurz and Alexander Schimmelpfennug plus many others who fled Germany after the failed 1848 rebellions in Europe.
Lots of soldiers disliked the German soldiers. After the defeat at Chancellorsville, where Jackson’s flank attack hit IO Howard’s German units, the were called Howard’s cowards and the Flying Dutchmen because they were routed by the attack.

Funny you should mention Chancellorsville. The historian leading the discussion said the general in charge of the flank the Germans were on had word of a flanking move by the Confederates on the flank they defended and did not reinforce it. He said the Germans were badly outnumbered because of it. And he said the Northern press roasted them for getting defeated.

 

[hoquat63]

Absolute brawls while fighting over the hydrant. Scary, scary stuff.

It's why the junior man is still called the "johnny" since back in the day it was his job to secure the hydrant, nicknamed johnny pump (possiby because the inventers name was John), by "any means neccessary" and I do mean by any means. LOL

But the draft riots I mentioned earlier where a lot of the Irish were the main culprits was really, really bad.

Yes quite a few black men were attacked and killed by the mobs. Black orphanage was burned.
Some equally bad anti black riots after the war in Memphis and New Orleans

 

[BLewis1968]

Now family members snitch on each other to the FBI

In some cases, justifiably so.

 

[Proud NJ Sports Fan]

In some cases, justifiably so.

LOLz, snitches get stitches.

 

[hoquat63]

Funny you should mention Chancellorsville. The historian leading the discussion said the general in charge of the flank the Germans were on had word of a flanking move by the Confederates on the flank they defended and did not reinforce it. He said the Germans were badly outnumbered because of it. And he said the Northern press roasted them for getting defeated.

Yes, after brilliant opening maneuvering, Union generals totally screwed things up. Only positive for the Union was friendly Fire death of Stonewall Jackson.

 

[gmay8]

There was a really good History channel 3 part documentary on Grant a while back... i enjoyed that and then just recently they did a special episode 4th part that was more towards the end of the war and his presidency.... also was very well done. Try to find it on the History channel if you're interested in the Civil War

 

[BigWill]

You could buy you way out of the draft in the North. Usually an Irish immigrant was happy to "join" in the spot.

Without Grant it is likely that Lee would have won.

 

[goru1869]

You could buy you way out of the draft in the North. Usually an Irish immigrant was happy to "join" in the spot.

Without Grant it is likely that Lee would have won.

Grant really was the person who took the fight to the rebs. After the Battle of the Wilderness in 1864 it is said as the federal troops left the woods they noticed they were not retreating for once and a cheer went up. Grant , when given command of all the Federal armies , decided to stay with the Army Of The Potomac , at the time under Gen. Meade , because he knew Lee had to beat to win the war. Sherman , I think would have also done well against Lee and also beat him in the long run . The north had much more in the way of everything supplies , men etc. Without Grant it was only a matter of time before the south lost IF the war continued. But it also may depend on Lincoln's situation.

 

[hoquat63]

You could buy you way out of the draft in the North. Usually an Irish immigrant was happy to "join" in the spot.

Without Grant it is likely that Lee would have won.

Same held true in the South.

 

[goru1869]

Saw an interesting documentary recently about the instance of young white Northern soldiers heading south to fight for the Confederacy was a far higher rate than the opposite, southern kids heading north.
The brother against brother happened at the border states like Missouri where brothers went in opposite directions and actually engaged in battles against each other.
Another crazy thing I heard, was there was a weird anti-establishment appeal to go fight for the south if you were an uneducated young white kid from the north.

The appeal supposedly had nothing to do with defending slavery and everything to do with the allure of running away and becoming a rebellious, renegade Rebel.
Is anyone familiar with this?
I thought it interesting.

A lot of what you said I have come across often. I also believe I heard that Princeton was know is the Northern most Southern University. But I do realize a lot of southerners went there . As a long time history buff and Civil War reenactor I find some channels like The History Channel to be full of crap most of the time. I have always said the best way to learn is to visit a historic site and talk to a ranger or tour guide. My family , friends and I have a tour scheduled for the end of April in Gettysburg with a tour guide .

 

[BigWill]

It is amazing how close some events in US history hinged on just a few votes here and there.

Bush over Al.
FDR and the Draft, Lend Lease.
Lincoln; Abolition of Slavery.

Give some more...

 

[knightfan7]

Now family members snitch on each other to the FBI

As they should.

 

[knightfan7]

yup GGG Grandpa fought for the NY 41st "DeKalb" regiment B, almost all German immigrants

GGG Grandpa was a member of the 71st NY although a number of volunteers were from NJ.

GG Grandpa was regular army 3rd US Artillery

 

[HeywoodGiant]

what does "uneducated" mean? I'm already suspicious of this documentary

 

[hoquat63]

It is amazing how close some events in US history hinged on just a few votes here and there.

Bush over Al.
FDR and the Draft, Lend Lease.
Lincoln; Abolition of Slavery.

Give some more...

Hayes:Tilden
JQ Adams:A Jackson

 

[hoquat63]

CSPAN3 on Sunday’s usually has a pretty good show about some aspect of the Civil War

 

[knightfan7]

A lot of what you said I have come across often. I also believe I heard that Princeton was know is the Northern most Southern University. But I do realize a lot of southerners went there . As a long time history buff and Civil War reenactor I find some channels like The History Channel to be full of crap most of the time. I have always said the best way to learn is to visit a historic site and talk to a ranger or tour guide. My family , friends and I have a tour scheduled for the end of April in Gettysburg with a tour guide .

I think I've watched every NPS tour vid on You Tube at least once. Matt Atkinson is great.

 

[Nowucme]

History is very close. It’s possible in your past you talked to someone who talked to someone who was IN the civil war. That’s also true of WWI. And you can still talk directly to someone who was in every war going forward.

 

[zappaa]

A lot of what you said I have come across often. I also believe I heard that Princeton was know is the Northern most Southern University. But I do realize a lot of southerners went there . As a long time history buff and Civil War reenactor I find some channels like The History Channel to be full of crap most of the time. I have always said the best way to learn is to visit a historic site and talk to a ranger or tour guide. My family , friends and I have a tour scheduled for the end of April in Gettysburg with a tour guide .

My brother Larry is a huge Civil War historian and memorabilia collector.
He says the exact same thing.
His last visit to Gettysburg, he insisted the Ranger take him down to the original starting point of Pickets Charge from the Confederacy side.
Pickets men walked up that hill side by side into 6,500 muskets and 240 cannons

 

[ru109]

Saw an interesting documentary recently about the instance of young white Northern soldiers heading south to fight for the Confederacy was a far higher rate than the opposite, southern kids heading north.
The brother against brother happened at the border states like Missouri where brothers went in opposite directions and actually engaged in battles against each other.
Another crazy thing I heard, was there was a weird anti-establishment appeal to go fight for the south if you were an uneducated young white kid from the north.

The appeal supposedly had nothing to do with defending slavery and everything to do with the allure of running away and becoming a rebellious, renegade Rebel.
Is anyone familiar with this?
I thought it interesting.

I could see if you were uneducated being afraid of losing your job to the newly freed slaves, kind of like today and some people's feeling about immigration.

 

[zappaa]

I could see if you were uneducated being afraid of losing your job to the newly freed slaves, kind of like today and some people's feeling about immigration.

I seriously doubt that had anything to do with their motivation.
Good story though.
And no one I know minds loosing their job to a legal immigrant who’s respected our laws and entered this country properly

 

[greenknight]

I'm a huge war buff of all wars. To this day I still cannot fathom the bravery it must have taken to stand in a line in the wide open and hope you did not get hit by a round. I know if either guy to the right or left got popped in the head I would have had a tough time loading powder and round. Actually found a musketball in my back yard digging out cement

 

[Scarletnut]

Lots of good Civil War sources. I recommend looking up Ken Burns documentary in the Civil War

 

[hoquat63]

History is very close. It’s possible in your past you talked to someone who talked to someone who was IN the civil war. That’s also true of WWI. And you can still talk directly to someone who was in every war going forward.

Actually I had an uncle who was in the army for WWI, didn’t go in until late in the war and was never got shipped over seas.

 

[mdk02]

Actually I had an uncle who was in the army for WWI, didn’t go in until late in the war and was never got shipped over seas.

Same for my grandfather. Drafted and never left the states.

 

[RAC’emUp]

History is very close. It’s possible in your past you talked to someone who talked to someone who was IN the civil war. That’s also true of WWI. And you can still talk directly to someone who was in every war going forward.

Faulkner quote: The past is never dead; it’s not even past.

 

[Yeah Baby]

Saw an interesting documentary recently about the instance of young white Northern soldiers heading south to fight for the Confederacy was a far higher rate than the opposite, southern kids heading north.
The brother against brother happened at the border states like Missouri where brothers went in opposite directions and actually engaged in battles against each other.
Another crazy thing I heard, was there was a weird anti-establishment appeal to go fight for the south if you were an uneducated young white kid from the north.

The appeal supposedly had nothing to do with defending slavery and everything to do with the allure of running away and becoming a rebellious, renegade Rebel.
Is anyone familiar with this?
I thought it interesting.

History tells us that slavery was protected by the rich and not the hard working or poor people. We cannot say all southerners were racist even back then but that is how we painted the picture with one broad stroke. Lather rinse repeat since then.