OT: Dave Ramsey

[anon1758050382]

The Ramsey Show has changed its tune on bitcoin. I don't know if Dave himself will ever admit he was wrong, but it is interesting to see how their position on bitcoin has changed from "wacko" (price $555) to "part of a diversified strategy" (price $100k).

I used to listen to Dave. I even led a Financial Peace University class at my church a long time ago. But he has really done damage to his reputation with his prideful, stubborn position on bitcoin. I started finding it hard to listen to his opinion on anything because I knew he was willing to blindly take a strong, public position on something he clearly didn't understand (see his "flip the switch" comment above). It just became too difficult to ignore.

I still don't think the Ramsey Show guys understand bitcoin, but at least they are admitting that it has a place in a diversified strategy. Took long enough.

 

[paindonthurt]

The Ramsey Show has changed its tune on bitcoin. I don't know if Dave himself will ever admit he was wrong, but it is interesting to see how their position on bitcoin has changed from "wacko" (price $555) to "part of a diversified strategy" (price $100k).

I used to listen to Dave. I even led a Financial Peace University class at my church a long time ago. But he has really done damage to his reputation with his prideful, stubborn position on bitcoin. I started finding it hard to listen to his opinion on anything because I knew he was willing to blindly take a strong, public position on something he clearly didn't understand (see his "flip the switch" comment above). It just became too difficult to ignore.

I still don't think the Ramsey Show guys understand bitcoin, but at least they are admitting that it has a place in a diversified strategy. Took long enough.

The audience that should be listening to Dave Ramsey and doing exactly what he says SHOULD NOT buy bitcoin.

 

[Bulldog from Birth]

I don’t follow Ramsey’s advice to the letter by any stretch. But I get his method. He wasn’t “wrong” on Bitcoin. He just has a very low-risk strategy. His program is built to allow everyday common working people to become millionaires who’ll never have to worry about money 25 years from when they start his program, in a method that is all but guaranteed with almost no risk. That’s what he teaches, and it works very, very well. His program is not meant to maximize wealth. It’s meant to give up the potential for larger returns for a sure thing. Bitcoin doesn’t have a multi-decade track record to create certainty like an S&P500 index fund or proven diversified mutual fund. Bitcoin could collapse in value at any point and never recover, just like any individual stock could do the same. Just because NVDA or Bitcoin or whatever significantly out-performed the market doesn’t mean his advice was wrong for his proven wealth building plan.

 

[paindonthurt]

I don’t follow Ramsey’s advice to the letter by any stretch. But I get his method. He wasn’t “wrong” on Bitcoin. He just has a very low-risk strategy. His program is built to allow everyday common working people to become millionaires who’ll never have to worry about money 25 years from when they start his program, in a method that is all but guaranteed with almost no risk. That’s what he teaches, and it works very, very well. His program is not meant to maximize wealth. It’s meant to give up the potential for larger returns for a sure thing. Bitcoin doesn’t have a multi-decade track record to create certainty like an S&P500 index fund or proven diversified mutual fund. Bitcoin could collapse in value at any point and never recover, just like any individual stock could do the same. Just because NVDA or Bitcoin or whatever significantly out-performed the market doesn’t mean his advice was wrong for his proven wealth building plan.

This. 90% of the US population should listen to Dave b/c either they are too stupid to do otherwise or lack the discipline to do otherwise.

I listened to Dave a lot. I preach Dave's methods to my nieces, nephews, sisters and even 1 parent. I don't really follow Dave's methods though.

I use a credit card all the time. I have the discipline to not overspend and pay it off each month. I make money doing that.
I have homeowner debt and vehicle debt. Its at a very low interest rate. I can pay it off but my money is making more money than the debt is costing me. Most people can't save that money and let it earn for them.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

Fellas, trust me. Invest now before everyone else does.

"To the moon, Alice!"

 

[anon1758050382]

The audience that should be listening to Dave Ramsey and doing exactly what he says SHOULD NOT buy bitcoin.

If we assume someone is following the Baby Steps, it depends on what step they are on.

I agree that someone on Step 2 probably doesn't hold bitcoin. They hold $1k cash, and every extra dollar goes to paying down consumer debt.

Step 7 includes buying rental properties with cash. That person absolutely should be saving with bitcoin, not real estate:

Rental Real Estate - Bitcoinmath

bitcoinmath.org

 

[QuadrupleOption]

Lot of good points here. Bitcoin isn't low-risk, it's been a roller coaster ride. I don't understand it so I wouldn't buy it myself. I would trust that the smart folks managing my 401K DO understand it and know how to fold it into their portfolio without breaking their company.

Everyone wins.

 

[GloryDawg]

My problem with him is he goes after credit cards in a negative way. Yes, they can be hurtful to you if you don't respect them but don't tell me how bad credit card are then accept credit cards for your products or seminars.

 

[anon1758050382]

Fellas, trust me. Invest now before everyone else does.

"To the moon, Alice!"

What exactly are you comparing to Monopoly money?

 

[paindonthurt]

If we assume someone is following the Baby Steps, it depends on what step they are on.

I agree that someone on Step 2 probably doesn't hold bitcoin. They hold $1k cash, and every extra dollar goes to paying down consumer debt.

Step 7 includes buying rental properties with cash. That person absolutely should be saving with bitcoin, not real estate:

Rental Real Estate - Bitcoinmath

bitcoinmath.org

You don’t invest in something you don’t understand.

90% of Americans don’t understand bitcoin.

Now maybe they invest in bitcoin through a financial advisor as part of a diversified portfolio.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

You don’t invest in something you don’t understand.

I'm willing to bet, in whatever imaginary currency you choose, more than 90% of this board hasn't paid their respects at an Indian burial ground.

Yet, we're all still here.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

The Ramsey Show has changed its tune on bitcoin. I don't know if Dave himself will ever admit he was wrong, but it is interesting to see how their position on bitcoin has changed from "wacko" (price $555) to "part of a diversified strategy" (price $100k).

I used to listen to Dave. I even led a Financial Peace University class at my church a long time ago. But he has really done damage to his reputation with his prideful, stubborn position on bitcoin. I started finding it hard to listen to his opinion on anything because I knew he was willing to blindly take a strong, public position on something he clearly didn't understand (see his "flip the switch" comment above). It just became too difficult to ignore.

I still don't think the Ramsey Show guys understand bitcoin, but at least they are admitting that it has a place in a diversified strategy. Took long enough.

That doesn’t sound they changed their stance. Slightly softened as more information is known, maybe. But this sounds like you trying to toot your own horn as usual.

 

[Dawgbite]

My dad was Dave Ramsey before Dave was even born. His philosophy was that if you couldn’t pay cash for it then you couldn’t afford it. I didn’t follow that early in adulthood but I finally saw the light. I haven’t had a dollar of debt other than monthly credit card debt that’s paid off every month since my late thirties. It’s pretty empowering, I know exactly what I can afford for a car, boat, RV, or whatever.

 

[Shmuley]

90% of Americans don’t understand Bitcoin

I think the number is closer to 99.9%.

 

[anon1758050382]

90% of Americans don’t understand bitcoin.

Correct.

 

[anon1758050382]

That doesn’t sound they changed their stance. Slightly softened as more information is known, maybe. But this sounds like you trying to toot your own horn as usual.

Trying to toot my own horn? These guys are self-proclaimed financial educators. They should be called out when they have been spectacularly wrong for 11 years.

 

[mstateglfr]

You don’t invest in something you don’t understand.

90% of Americans don’t understand bitcoin.

Now maybe they invest in bitcoin through a financial advisor as part of a diversified portfolio.

Agree with you.
But just gonna add that I bet 90% of people who own bitcoin also don't understand bitcoin.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

Trying to toot my own horn? These guys are self-proclaimed financial educators. They should be called out when they have been spectacularly wrong for 11 years.

The fact that you keep saying things like spectacularly wrong is evidence that you’re trying to toot your own horn. He’s not wrong at all - bitcoin is volatile.

 

[paindonthurt]

Correct.

View attachment 803375

Didn’t say you or anyone else is wrong about it.

 

[paindonthurt]

The fact that you keep saying things like spectacularly wrong is evidence that you’re trying to toot your own horn. He’s not wrong at all - bitcoin is volatile.

Damn I’m agreeing with goat!

Correct, Dave Ramsey is talking to people who need simple instructions and sound lower risk advice.

Or a solid financial advisor.

 

[8dog]

Can I get the name of Dave’s preferred A Share bitcoin fund?

 

[DawgInThe256]

I agree with Vanguard’s comment here that Bitcoin still feels like speculation and not an investment.

Investments and Finance - Perspectives and commentary

Vanguard's thought leaders share timely insights about international financial markets, investor behavior, and the investment industry.

corporate.vanguard.com

 

[anon1758050382]

Didn’t say you or anyone else is wrong about it.

Understood. Not directed at you. I was agreeing that 90% of people don’t understand bitcoin. And they know they don’t understand it. I was just adding that a lot of those people are also very confident in telling others they are wrong about it.

 

[paindonthurt]

Understood. Not directed at you. I was agreeing that 90% of people don’t understand bitcoin. And they know they don’t understand it. I was just adding that a lot of those people are also very confident in telling others they are wrong about it.

View attachment 803422

Arent you telling us we are wrong about it?

You are definitely saying Dave is wrong about it. He isn't. Most Americans don't need to be in something volatile. Thats Dave's whole point.

I'm positive, if i sat down 1 on 1 with Dave and had a conversation about my finances and debt, he'd likely say i'm doing the right things, but he can't say that publicly bc most Americans can't do what i'm doing. Not b/c of finances but b/c of discipline and intellect/education. He has to be consistent in his baby steps and what he says on air.

 

[ETK99]

His brother works for OM and he rips people off with services he pushes. For some reason, churches got onboard with him, I'll never understand that.

 

[johnson86-1]

His brother works for OM and he rips people off with services he pushes. For some reason, churches got onboard with him, I'll never understand that.

The cynical explanation is that churches got on board with him because a church with a bunch of members following his advice will be much more financially stable than a church of average americans. Only churches with the most affluent congregations wouldn't be better off with their members following Dave Ramsey's advice.

The non-cynical explanation is that while some of his advice is not technically sound, his system is generally well suited to the way people behave and the alternative to following Dave Ramsey's advice is usually not following better financial advice, but not addressing the behavioral issues that are causing money problems at all. There's nothing in his advice that I know of that is contrary to scripture, so promoting Dave Ramsey is generally good for the members of the congregation, so of course it makes sense that churches got onboard.

 

[ETK99]

The cynical explanation is that churches got on board with him because a church with a bunch of members following his advice will be much more financially stable than a church of average americans. Only churches with the most affluent congregations wouldn't be better off with their members following Dave Ramsey's advice.

The non-cynical explanation is that while some of his advice is not technically sound, his system is generally well suited to the way people behave and the alternative to following Dave Ramsey's advice is usually not following better financial advice, but not addressing the behavioral issues that are causing money problems at all. There's nothing in his advice that I know of that is contrary to scripture, so promoting Dave Ramsey is generally good for the members of the congregation, so of course it makes sense that churches got onboard.

His advice is as basic as it gets. Common sense can handle what he peddles- don't spend more than you've got and pay yourself first (second in the case of God). Still doesn't explain churches bringing in his stuff as classes for the members. Waste of money, because most people know what they should be doing, they simply choose not to.

 

[stateu1]

The cynical explanation is that churches got on board with him because a church with a bunch of members following his advice will be much more financially stable than a church of average americans. Only churches with the most affluent congregations wouldn't be better off with their members following Dave Ramsey's advice.

The non-cynical explanation is that while some of his advice is not technically sound, his system is generally well suited to the way people behave and the alternative to following Dave Ramsey's advice is usually not following better financial advice, but not addressing the behavioral issues that are causing money problems at all. There's nothing in his advice that I know of that is contrary to scripture, so promoting Dave Ramsey is generally good for the members of the congregation, so of course it makes sense that churches got onboard.

Or, it could simply be he preaches tithing as part of the plan.

 

[Walkthedawg]

The audience that should be listening to Dave Ramsey and doing exactly what he says SHOULD NOT buy bitcoin.

Exactly.

And I have a few disagreements with Ramsey but his plans are good for people that are just horrible with money.

Can’t knock him on being wrong on bitcoin though, if we all here were correct about the future of it, we would be meeting this morning at Pebble Beach to play a round and discussing what players to buy with NIL.

 

[mstateglfr]

And they know they don’t understand it. I was just adding that a lot of those people are also very confident in telling others they are wrong about it.

View attachment 803422

Its almost like there is a gif or meme for any point you are trying to make...and many can be used differently from what they originally meant.

 

[anon1758050382]

Arent you telling us we are wrong about it?

You are definitely saying Dave is wrong about it. He isn't. Most Americans don't need to be in something volatile. Thats Dave's whole point.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just have a different perspective/opinion.

I am saying Dave Ramsey is wrong. But to be fair, he didn't just say bitcoin is volatile and most people shouldn't buy it.

He has said and, to my knowledge, never walked back:

1. Bitcoin isn't "real" money.
2. Buying bitcoin is "unwise".
3. Bitcoiners are "stupid".
4. A "computer nerd" can "flip a switch" and make your bitcoin disappear.

And he said those things on a widely viewed financial education show for over a decade. Yes, I'm saying he is wrong.

My original post was just noticing that at least some people under the Ramsey brand are changing their tune.

 

[johnson86-1]

His advice is as basic as it gets. Common sense can handle what he peddles- don't spend more than you've got and pay yourself first (second in the case of God). Still doesn't explain churches bringing in his stuff as classes for the members. Waste of money, because most people know what they should be doing, they simply choose not to.

You are grossly overestimating most people's ability to control their behavior and make good decisions without help. And that's what Dave Ramsey's stuff is really about. It's value isn't in its financial advice or knowledge. Any body with a basic understanding of money could give the advice Dave Ramsey gives. Hell, I can give better financial advice than Dave Ramsey gives. But I can't give advice in a way that the average idiot on the street is going to follow it and find it motivating, and I can't promote my advice or myself the way Dave Ramsey did. The baby steps are steps simple and easy enough for people to follow, and they provide quick wins often enough that people are motivated to stick with them compared to most financial advice.

 

[johnson86-1]

Or, it could simply be he preaches tithing as part of the plan.

The church is presumably already preaching tithing. There are other bible based financial classes that also presumably teach tithing. Dave Ramsey is valuable to churches because his program tends to be more successful at changing behavior, which is necessary for most congregants to be able to tithe.

 

[Darryl Steight]

The cynical explanation is that churches got on board with him because a church with a bunch of members following his advice will be much more financially stable than a church of average americans. Only churches with the most affluent congregations wouldn't be better off with their members following Dave Ramsey's advice.

The non-cynical explanation is that while some of his advice is not technically sound, his system is generally well suited to the way people behave and the alternative to following Dave Ramsey's advice is usually not following better financial advice, but not addressing the behavioral issues that are causing money problems at all. There's nothing in his advice that I know of that is contrary to scripture, so promoting Dave Ramsey is generally good for the members of the congregation, so of course it makes sense that churches got onboard.

He's also pretty publicly a Christian, and professes that all through his literature and teachings, and on his radio show. I think at least some of the churches who set up classes around his material feel like it's an easy/good way to present information that (a) can help some people with their finances; and (b) they can safely show in a church setting because they know he's not going to say anything offensive or anti-Christian in the program.

 

[paindonthurt]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I just have a different perspective/opinion.

I am saying Dave Ramsey is wrong. But to be fair, he didn't just say bitcoin is volatile and most people shouldn't buy it.

He has said and, to my knowledge, never walked back:

1. Bitcoin isn't "real" money.
2. Buying bitcoin is "unwise".
3. Bitcoiners are "stupid".
4. A "computer nerd" can "flip a switch" and make your bitcoin disappear.

And he said those things on a widely viewed financial education show for over a decade. Yes, I'm saying he is wrong.

My original post was just noticing that at least some people under the Ramsey brand are changing their tune.

Who cares? He’s speaking to an audience who probably needed to hear that.

And he still may not be wrong. I certainly think he is but I don’t understand bitcoin enough to say those things are 100% false. I bet you don’t either.

 

[paindonthurt]

You are grossly overestimating most people's ability to control their behavior and make good decisions without help. And that's what Dave Ramsey's stuff is really about. It's value isn't in its financial advice or knowledge. Any body with a basic understanding of money could give the advice Dave Ramsey gives. Hell, I can give better financial advice than Dave Ramsey gives. But I can't give advice in a way that the average idiot on the street is going to follow it and find it motivating, and I can't promote my advice or myself the way Dave Ramsey did. The baby steps are steps simple and easy enough for people to follow, and they provide quick wins often enough that people are motivated to stick with them compared to most financial advice.

Grossly is the understatement of the century here.

I bet 50% plus of the population can’t sit down and write out what their monthly recurring bills are and get it correct without help.

 

[ETK99]

Grossly is the understatement of the century here.

I bet 50% plus of the population can’t sit down and write out what their monthly recurring bills are and get it correct without help.

It's not can't, it's that they don't care to do it. There's no failure if they don't. Too many bail outs and entitlements. Responsible people do it and that's about it.
Ramsey isn't the fix here and he's no budgeting guru.

 

[NTDawg]

Grossly is the understatement of the century here.

I bet 50% plus of the population can’t sit down and write out what their monthly recurring bills are and get it correct without help.

Count me on the 50% that doesn't know if I need to know the $ amount. I have no idea how much I pay for all the streaming services, and I don't want to know. If I were living paycheck to paycheck, I would know. I have suggested to my wife that we cut a couple, but she vetoed my suggestion.

 

[johnson86-1]

It's not can't, it's that they don't care to do it. There's no failure if they don't. Too many bail outs and entitlements. Responsible people do it and that's about it.
Ramsey isn't the fix here and he's no budgeting guru.

I mean, this is semantics. Yes, ignoring mental and/or physical disability, everybody theoretically can control their spending and save and invest and eat healthy and exercise. Just like addicts can theoretically just decide to quit smoking or drinking or taking opioids or whatever without any help or program. But what's the point of pointing that out? People are humans and are irrational and have imperfect self control. You have to have some desire to change, but different programs that take into account or even take advantage of human emotions can help people establish new, healthier habits.

 

[Darryl Steight]

I mean, this is semantics. Yes, ignoring mental and/or physical disability, everybody theoretically can control their spending and save and invest and eat healthy and exercise. Just like addicts can theoretically just decide to quit smoking or drinking or taking opioids or whatever without any help or program. But what's the point of pointing that out? People are humans and are irrational and have imperfect self control. You have to have some desire to change, but different programs that take into account or even take advantage of human emotions can help people establish new, healthier habits.

And I would add, for a lot of people, finding a very simple, easy to understand - and easy to follow - system is key to making changes. So the envelopes, the baby steps, etc. have helped a lot of people.