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OT: Electric vehicles

Knight Shift

Knight Shift

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May 19, 2011
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Ignoring Tesla’s problems with the hope that you will soon figure out self-driving, even though you have been wrong about it for years, won’t make them disappear.

Unfortunately, Tesla is making it clear that injecting a dose of reality into this narrative will get you fired.

It’s a really sad time for a once-incredible company that had a massive impact on the auto industry and accelerated electrification.

 
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mildone_rivals

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Dec 19, 2011
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RUevolution36 said:

I hate the idea that software is being used to limit owners' access to the full capabilities of the car they purchase, however, maybe Xiaomi has a nugget of a good idea here. You want to leverage all the power of your EV? Prove it and it gets unlocked. Just make this part of the contract up front target. @mildone - I know you have issues with regular ppl not being able to handle all that power... thoughts?
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Ooh, a soapbox. Think I'll climb up on it. LOL

I think cars (including EVs) that cost under $200K should be made with motors/engines that cannot produce more than, say, 500HP. Putting more HP than that into cars costing only $30-$40K is basically begging for more automotive deaths. Especially sedans and SUVs. The price/limit ratio varying depending on the weight of the vehicle in question.

Lots of brand-new, relatively inexpensive, sports cars (e.g. American muscle cars) wind up wrapped around trees 'cause owners wanted to show off but didn't understand how to drive a performance car. Sure, the same thing happens with expensive sports cars, too. But due to the price and how lots of people treat supercars as garage queens, such incidents are much less common. Conversely, $80K gets you into a model S with nearly 700HP.

Modern software in cars helps. But when a car is made to sell at low prices, the manufactures will cut costs to make profits. Which includes cutting software development costs. Doesn't matter who the manufacturer is or what type of propulsion it uses. Math is math. Profit is profit.

Having said that, I can certainly understand people being pissed off that a manufacturer, after the sale, took away advertised capabilities w/out providing reasonable compensation. That's not the right way to go about fixing the problem. Just use less powerful motors to start with.

Putting ridiculous HP and torque in a cheap car running demonstrably buggy automated driving software w/cheap vehicle components? What could possibly go wrong? 🙂

Anyway, real car people know that going fast in a slow car is way more fun than going slow in a fast car.
 
BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine

BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine

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Jan 12, 2015
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Not a fan of EVs especially Chiner EVs, but gotta admit these models are worth looking at...

 
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HeavenUniv.

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Sep 21, 2004
135,536
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WhichReligionIsRight said:
I watched the company video - had no idea this is an EV. Too bare-bones for my taste, but glad to see an affordable EV hit the market.

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Still very happy with my non plug in hybrid Maverick after 27 months. No issues and I get between 50-53 mpg on my commute between Manchester and Freehold. The price is basically the same between the Ford Maverick and (Amazon) Slate if the EV tax credit goes away. Would have no interest in an EV, but I love the whole concept of a vehicle without all the junk I don’t use, but gives folks the option to add as the years go on. The wraps are $500 so if you don’t like royal blue, you can change it to forest green to orange, etc. every few years. Love roll down windows and it is the only small pick up with two doors. Also, having no carpet is a big plus and the ability to go between two seats and five is great. Only $50 refundable deposit needed. They had 100,000 reservations in the first two weeks.Their goal is delivery by late 2026. If I was buying a new truck today and they offered a non plug in hybrid version for $20,000 including delivery, I would certainly consider it. Great to see they are building these in Indiana. —Wonder if Amazon throws in a huge bag of dog food as a gift lol.
 
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mildone_rivals

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GoodOl'Rutgers

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Sep 11, 2006
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mildone said:
Also, no working from home. That's Elon's own rule, so he needs to follow it. A nasty leadership antipattern is creating work rules for employees and then setting a poor example by not adhering to them.
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didn't he basically move into his office?

linky

Studies regarding the benefits of return-to-office mandates have been mixed. Some find that hybrid workers are as productive as on-site ones, while others conclude that in-person work cultivates mentorship and training.

In some cases, however, the results of being physically in the office are unequivocal. Tesla CEO Elon Musk said on X that he would be “spending 24/7 at work and sleeping in conference/server/factory rooms.” Investors appeared glad that Musk would be pivoting away from his involvement in politics to refocus on his companies, pushing up shares of the electric vehicle company nearly 7% Tuesday.
 
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RUschool

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Jan 23, 2004
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Knight Shift said:
With only a few small markets left to report April registrations, it looks like Tesla won’t break 7,000 units delivered in Europe.

That’s down roughly 50% from April 2024.


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In April 2025, BYD, a Chinese electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer, outsold Tesla in Europe for the first time, with 7,231 BEV (battery-electric vehicle) registrations compared to Tesla's 7,165.This "watershed moment" for the European car market highlights growing popularity of Chinese EVs. While this victory was a narrow one, it underscores a shift in consumer preferences, potentially influenced by factors like pricing and backlash against Tesla's CEO
 
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mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
55,607
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rutgersdave said:
In April 2025, BYD, a Chinese electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer, outsold Tesla in Europe for the first time, with 7,231 BEV (battery-electric vehicle) registrations compared to Tesla's 7,165.This "watershed moment" for the European car market highlights growing popularity of Chinese EVs. While this victory was a narrow one, it underscores a shift in consumer preferences, potentially influenced by factors like pricing and backlash against Tesla's CEO
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Teslas are basically dirt cheap now. Are BYD's cars that much less expensive?

I suspect negative sentiment towards Musk is a big factor, here and abroad. Perhaps that'll die down a bit now that he's (hopefully) all done with his DC ego trip. Consumers are said to have long memories, but I'm not so sure.
 
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RUschool

Heisman
Jan 23, 2004
49,910
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mildone said:
Teslas are basically dirt cheap now. Are BYD's cars that much less expensive?

I suspect negative sentiment towards Musk is a big factor, here and abroad. Perhaps that'll die down a bit now that he's (hopefully) all done with his DC ego trip. Consumers are said to have long memories, but I'm not so sure.
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BYD's Dolphin Surf, the European version of its best-selling Seagull EV, starts at €23,000 ($26,000). The BYD Atto 3, a C-segment SUV, has a pre-sale price of €38,000. BYD also offers the Hanand Tang with pre-sale prices of €72,000. These pre-sale prices are from Germany and may differ in other European markets, according to BYD Europe. The Dolphin Surf will be available in three price points, with a launch price of €19,990, according to Reuters.

From what I read the BYD cars are loaded without needing any extras much more than TSLA which is more bare bones. Their free self driving system “God Eyes” include 12 cameras and 12 radars. TSLA does not include radars because it cost too much. I read that EU setting the price instead of using tariffs so that their cars can be competitive. TSLA will come in second in any market the Chinese EV are allowed.
 
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BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine

BIGRUBIGDBIGredmachine

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Jan 12, 2015
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rutgersdave said:
BYD's Dolphin Surf, the European version of its best-selling Seagull EV, starts at €23,000 ($26,000). The BYD Atto 3, a C-segment SUV, has a pre-sale price of €38,000. BYD also offers the Hanand Tang with pre-sale prices of €72,000. These pre-sale prices are from Germany and may differ in other European markets, according to BYD Europe. The Dolphin Surf will be available in three price points, with a launch price of €19,990, according to Reuters.

From what I read the BYD cars are loaded without needing any extras much more than TSLA which is more bare bones. Their free self driving system “God Eyes” include 12 cameras and 12 radars. TSLA does not include radars because it cost too much. I read that EU setting the price instead of using tariffs so that their cars can be competitive. TSLA will come in second in any market the Chinese EV are allowed.
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as long communist china continues suppressing labor costs
 
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Letitrip

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rutgersdave said:
BYD's Dolphin Surf, the European version of its best-selling Seagull EV, starts at €23,000 ($26,000). The BYD Atto 3, a C-segment SUV, has a pre-sale price of €38,000. BYD also offers the Hanand Tang with pre-sale prices of €72,000. These pre-sale prices are from Germany and may differ in other European markets, according to BYD Europe. The Dolphin Surf will be available in three price points, with a launch price of €19,990, according to Reuters.

From what I read the BYD cars are loaded without needing any extras much more than TSLA which is more bare bones. Their free self driving system “God Eyes” include 12 cameras and 12 radars. TSLA does not include radars because it cost too much. I read that EU setting the price instead of using tariffs so that their cars can be competitive. TSLA will come in second in any market the Chinese EV are allowed.
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Every current Tesla model comes fully loaded. Only upgrades are certain paint colors and the white interior. And unlike BYD FSD - Tesla full self driving actually works.
 
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Ty Webb_rivals67856

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Jul 24, 2001
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letitrip2 said:
Every current Tesla model comes fully loaded. Only upgrades are certain paint colors and the white interior. And unlike BYD FSD - Tesla full self driving actually works.
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Is that true? The part about FSD working. FSD utilizes cameras whereas BYD's Gods Eye uses cameras, radar and LiDAR, similar to Waymo taxis, who seems to be the gold standard right now for utilizing driverless driving systems.
 
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RUschool

Heisman
Jan 23, 2004
49,910
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letitrip2 said:
Every current Tesla model comes fully loaded. Only upgrades are certain paint colors and the white interior. And unlike BYD FSD - Tesla full self driving actually works.
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From what I hear it doesn’t work. Keep your hands on the wheel and watch the road. Another video showing it ignored a school bus stop sign and then ran over a dummy pedestrian
 
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Rutgers Chris

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Nov 29, 2005
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Ty Webb said:
Is that true? The part about FSD working. FSD utilizes cameras whereas BYD's Gods Eye uses cameras, radar and LiDAR, similar to Waymo taxis, who seems to be the gold standard right now for utilizing driverless driving systems.
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I drive a Tesla and have been in a Waymo a few times. From my experience, Waymos are essentially on a tram track within the cities they operate. They take the same roads, often out of the way of a point a to b route. I’m sure they will get better and do well but it’s a different animal.

A Tesla is actual full self driving that improves exponentially with each release. Absolutely still needs improvement but the rate of improvement is pretty remarkable.

Yes there is a presumed cost factor to cameras versus radar, but there’s also a philosophical difference. Roads are built to be driven using our eyes, thus the reliance on cameras. Remains to be seen which wins out, though I suspect both can
 
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mildone_rivals

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Dec 19, 2011
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Rutgers Chris said:
I drive a Tesla and have been in a Waymo a few times. From my experience, Waymos are essentially on a tram track within the cities they operate. They take the same roads, often out of the way of a point a to b route. I’m sure they will get better and do well but it’s a different animal.

A Tesla is actual full self driving that improves exponentially with each release. Absolutely still needs improvement but the rate of improvement is pretty remarkable.

Yes there is a presumed cost factor to cameras versus radar, but there’s also a philosophical difference. Roads are built to be driven using our eyes, thus the reliance on cameras. Remains to be seen which wins out, though I suspect both can
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Unless it’s hyperbole, it is concerning that FSD has gone though so many “exponential” improvements and yet still flawed.

Firstly, it’s concerning because that must mean the initial releases, which were allowed on public roads, were so immensely flawed that these was room for exponential improvement. Secondly, it’s a concern that all that massive improvement and it’s still making inexplicable mistakes.

BTW, there is no technically-focused philosophical difference. Tesla knows having both camera and radar is better, despite the marketing BS about it. The philosophy is all about cost-cutting, and nothing more. Nobody, least of all, Tesla owners, should accept that a “communist China” business values the well-being of their customers more than “great American” Tesla does.
 
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Rutgers Chris

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mildone said:
Unless it’s hyperbole, it is concerning that FSD has gone though so many “exponential” improvements and yet still flawed.

Firstly, it’s concerning because that must mean the initial releases, which were allowed on public roads, were so immensely flawed that these was room for exponential improvement. Secondly, it’s a concern that all that massive improvement and it’s still making inexplicable mistakes.

BTW, there is no technically-focused philosophical difference. Tesla knows having both camera and radar is better, despite the marketing BS about it. The philosophy is all about cost-cutting, and nothing more. Nobody, least of all, Tesla owners, should accept that a “communist China” business values the well-being of their customers more than “great American” Tesla does.
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Very much philosophical. If you can produce a car that’s the safest but no one can afford, then it’s pointless. So they’ll go the the cheaper route, more people will use it and it will be safer than human drivers. That’s the working hypothesis at least
 
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Ty Webb_rivals67856

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Jul 24, 2001
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Rutgers Chris said:
I drive a Tesla and have been in a Waymo a few times. From my experience, Waymos are essentially on a tram track within the cities they operate. They take the same roads, often out of the way of a point a to b route. I’m sure they will get better and do well but it’s a different animal.

A Tesla is actual full self driving that improves exponentially with each release. Absolutely still needs improvement but the rate of improvement is pretty remarkable.

Yes there is a presumed cost factor to cameras versus radar, but there’s also a philosophical difference. Roads are built to be driven using our eyes, thus the reliance on cameras. Remains to be seen which wins out, though I suspect both can
Click to expand...

Waymo uses cameras and LiDAR/radar though, right? Seems like a blending of multiple technologies would be best. Even Tesla’s own engineers tried to point out the flaws of a camera only system and Musk shoo’d them away.
 
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mildone_rivals

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Rutgers Chris said:
Very much philosophical. If you can produce a car that’s the safest but no one can afford, then it’s pointless. So they’ll go the the cheaper route, more people will use it and it will be safer than human drivers. That’s the working hypothesis at least
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So… you’re saying Tesla’s philosophy is “it’ll kill people, but at least it’s cheap”? 😉

Kidding.

One or the other sensor technology alone just isn’t safe enough. And Tesla knows it (like every other technologically-informed company). I suspect Tesla will switch to using both. Either soon (next couple years) or else after lawsuits that could resemble the lawsuits against tobacco companies. Only where the “secondhand smoke” kills innocent people instantly.
 
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Rutgers Chris

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Ty Webb said:
Waymo uses cameras and LiDAR/radar though, right? Seems like a blending of multiple technologies would be best. Even Tesla’s own engineers tried to point out the flaws of a camera only system and Musk shoo’d them away.
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Waymo uses both but it’s shown no ability to scale its fleet or move beyond geofenced cities. Again, it works in those cities but I consider it apples and oranges
 
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Jtung230

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Rutgers Chris said:
Waymo uses both but it’s shown no ability to scale its fleet or move beyond geofenced cities. Again, it works in those cities but I consider it apples and oranges
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One is FSD and one is not. Definitely apples vs oranges.

I didn’t realize that tpk will have universal charging at all rest stops by Monday. That’s great
 
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Rutgers Chris

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jtung230 said:
One is FSD and one is not. Definitely apples vs oranges.

I didn’t realize that tpk will have universal charging at all rest stops by Monday. That’s great
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You do know Waymo has a team of live humans in an operations center remotely navigating their cars when needed, right? Both systems have a ways to go.

Stayed at a rural Marriott last night- six destination chargers in the parking lot. Didn’t have to supercharge all week. Charging network is way ahead of where people think
 
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Jtung230

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Rutgers Chris said:
You do know Waymo has a team of live humans in an operations center remotely navigating their cars when needed, right? Both systems have a ways to go.

Stayed at a rural Marriott last night- six destination chargers in the parking lot. Didn’t have to supercharge all week. Charging network is way ahead of where people think
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Glad it’s not being navigated by dead humans 😀
 
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Letitrip

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Ty Webb said:
Waymo uses cameras and LiDAR/radar though, right? Seems like a blending of multiple technologies would be best. Even Tesla’s own engineers tried to point out the flaws of a camera only system and Musk shoo’d them away.
Click to expand...
The use of mixed technology will prove to be the limiting factor on how Waymo can scale.
 
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Letitrip

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rutgersdave said:
From what I hear it doesn’t work. Keep your hands on the wheel and watch the road. Another video showing it ignored a school bus stop sign and then ran over a dummy pedestrian
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I use FSD everyday. The improvements in the last 6 months are incredible. And while you still need to supervise you do not need to keep your hands on the wheel.
 
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Letitrip

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mildone said:
So… you’re saying Tesla’s philosophy is “it’ll kill people, but at least it’s cheap”? 😉

Kidding.

One or the other sensor technology alone just isn’t safe enough. And Tesla knows it (like every other technologically-informed company). I suspect Tesla will switch to using both. Either soon (next couple years) or else after lawsuits that could resemble the lawsuits against tobacco companies. Only where the “secondhand smoke” kills innocent people instantly.
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Nope. They will not add lidar.
 
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Rutgers Chris

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Just finished the 48 hour cybertruck test drive. It was very fun. Can’t believe how well it handles for such a big vehicle. The yoke and lack of stalks took some getting used to, but that didn’t take long. FSD felt much more comfortable, not sure if it’s because I was using it in a tank versus a 3/Y or if it was because it wasn’t my car. Overall a very fun drive but not in a hurry to buy one.
 
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Knight Shift

Knight Shift

Heisman
May 19, 2011
87,343
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Seems a little boneheaded for Tesla to make the investment and have it only good for 5 years?


Sales continue to crash in Europe, except Norway:

Tesla can try to frame this however it wants, but the data is clear: Tesla’s sales are dropping like a rock in Europe despite the availability of the new Model Y and record incentives like zero-interest financing.

2,500 Norwegians buying Tesla vehicles in May isn’t compensating for the declines in other markets and I doubt that the surge in May in Norway is going to be sustainable in the second half, especially if Tesla ends the zero-interest financing when it claims it will at the end of the quarter.


 
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RU4Real

Heisman
Jul 25, 2001
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I just can't convince myself to buy an electric car. I've tried, but it doesn't work.

Thinking about a BMW M240ix. I've historically been anti-BMW but at ~58k, this monster is a performance bargain.
 
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fsg2_rivals

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Apr 3, 2018
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RU4Real said:
I just can't convince myself to buy an electric car. I've tried, but it doesn't work.

Thinking about a BMW M240ix. I've historically been anti-BMW but at ~58k, this monster is a performance bargain.
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Can you deal with modern Bimmer nostrils, though? Somehow, those are toned down compared to others.

What is it about electrics you don't like? Just curious, not trying to hard-sell. I don't have one, either.
 
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