OT: Electric vehicles

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
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The equitable hit will vary from state to state and have to be an average among drivers.

FWIW, I did some quick math... I average about 10k miles per year, the S60 averages 22 mpg and the NJ gas tax is 44.1 cents per gallon, so my annual tithe to the state of NJ is about 200 bucks.

Another reason to adopt usage-based fees in an EV world - people who use the roads more would pay more.
I think this lends credence to the article’s assertion that the TX fees are disproportionally high. IIRC, they‘re charging EV owners 400 and the TX gas tax is lower than NJs.

I’m sold on the per mile approach. Long as it is self-reported using odometer reading and doesn’t require any device to be installed in cars.
 
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Knight Shift

Heisman
May 19, 2011
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The equitable hit will vary from state to state and have to be an average among drivers.

FWIW, I did some quick math... I average about 10k miles per year, the S60 averages 22 mpg and the NJ gas tax is 44.1 cents per gallon, so my annual tithe to the state of NJ is about 200 bucks.

Another reason to adopt usage-based fees in an EV world - people who use the roads more would pay more.
I think when re-registering your vehicle, a tax based on miles traveled would be fair. Thinking about it more, Texas' law seems unduly punitive to EV owners. You know me well enough that I have issues with aspects of both parties. I will never understand the irrational hate most R's have for EVs, and it is a huge blindspot for them IMO.
 

RU4Real

Heisman
Jul 25, 2001
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I think when re-registering your vehicle, a tax based on miles traveled would be fair. Thinking about it more, Texas' law seems unduly punitive to EV owners. You know me well enough that I have issues with aspects of both parties. I will never understand the irrational hate most R's have for EVs, and it is a huge blindspot for them IMO.

Unfortunately so much of the GOP ethos seems grounded in the 1950s. Embracing electric vehicles may be a few decades away, for them.

It sucks, because the party's predisposition to pander to the Christian right will undoubtedly result in us hearing, at some point in the future, that "electric cars is The Devil's work!"

At which point I will, of course, run out and buy 2 of them. 😋
 
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Knight Shift

Heisman
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Unfortunately so much of the GOP ethos seems grounded in the 1950s. Embracing electric vehicles may be a few decades away, for them.

It sucks, because the party's predisposition to pander to the Christian right will undoubtedly result in us hearing, at some point in the future, that "electric cars is The Devil's work!"

At which point I will, of course, run out and buy 2 of them. 😋
The way I see it, with a shout out to Stealers Wheel- I'm voting for your meme:

 
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RUevolution36

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Sep 18, 2006
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I think when re-registering your vehicle, a tax based on miles traveled would be fair. Thinking about it more, Texas' law seems unduly punitive to EV owners. You know me well enough that I have issues with aspects of both parties. I will never understand the irrational hate most R's have for EVs, and it is a huge blindspot for them IMO.
It's not hard to understand why R's hate EVs. They're in Big Oil's pocket and more R states are dependent on the petro industry for jobs and income.
 
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mildone_rivals

Heisman
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It's not hard to understand why R's hate EVs. They're in Big Oil's pocket and more R states are dependent on the petro industry for jobs and income.
That's true. But then a change-over to EVs is inevitable at this point. There is almost no chance that the vast majority of cars on the roads will not be all-electric at some point.

I'm not entirely sure it will ever get to 100% because (a) I think even when we hit 50% EVs on the road, it's likely we won't see any slow-down in the pace of the warming trend and (b) I think alternative approaches that reuse existing fueling infrastructure, but are far cleaner than today, are likely to evolve by the time we hit 50% EVs on the roads.

If those two things occur, I would expect some rethinking to take place about the actual benefits of pure EVs versus other carbon-reducing measures that might have a substantially greater impact. OTOH, if all automakers have fully shifted over to 100% EV sales by the time we hit that 50% EVs on the road mark, then that'll be a major factor and perhaps the EV change-over momentum would be considered irreversible, or something like that.
 

OntheBanks

All-Conference
Jul 26, 2001
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Pretty sure the data on our travel habits is already for sale to anybody who wants it. So at this point, pay per mile might be a reasonable ask. Or pay per mile and weight, since heavier vehicles cause more wear to roads and bridges.

But if they go for pay per mile, weight and speed, because higher speeds probably also creates more wear, well, that’s where I draw the line. Leave speed out of it. 😁
Agree on the per mile and weight. The most important thing is that they have to totally drop the gas tax at the pump when they do this. Just don't know how they would be able to verify your yearly mileage and collect the money.
 

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
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Agree on the per mile and weight. The most important thing is that they have to totally drop the gas tax at the pump when they do this. Just don't know how they would be able to verify your yearly mileage and collect the money.
They trust us to self-report a ton of stuff on our taxes, and conduct audits to spot-check. A new tax form that asked for odometer reading each year, and had a worksheet for reducing that YoY total by stuff like out-of-state travel, would probably do the trick.

In an audit, they could ask for some records that we'd actually been out of state and where we were. Hard to travel around without a paper trail nowadays. But some folks cheat on their taxes, and those folks will continue to try to do so. Some get caught. Some don't.
 

Section124

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Dec 21, 2002
16,997
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I don’t think we see the electric “gas” tax as part of doing your taxes. The government will want a steady stream of income. More likely the tax will be added to everyone’s electric bill regardless of whether you have an EV or not. Will be the way to get people to finally switch over.
 
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I don’t think we see the electric “gas” tax as part of doing your taxes. The government will want a steady stream of income. More likely the tax will be added to everyone’s electric bill regardless of whether you have an EV or not. Will be the way to get people to finally switch over.

I think this is unlikely. New funding sources/taxes to replace the declining gas tax are likely to come from additional car registration fees and VMT taxes administered similarly to electronic tolls (i.e., an additional "utility" bill.) The fees won't be part of someone's electric bills. Gas and power utilities are totally separate entities from transportation agencies - different silos/fiefdoms.

Additionally, there are federal and state (and sometimes local/regional) taxes on gasoline. I think that at the federal level, leaders are unlikely to come up with a plan to replace gas taxes with some new tax any time soon. There's too much dysfunction in DC. We will see some states find replace state gas tax losses with VMT and registration fees.

Texas was given as an example. Their behavior towards EVs is baffling - sort of. Texas is full of oil and gas folks who reflexively dislike EVs. OTOH, Tesla is making a big economic impact there and Texas gets to tout that a huge company moved from California to Texas. So pissing on Tesla's leg might come back and bite Texas' pols in their asses.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
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For those paying attention to Ford's investor day news, Ford admitted to a -40% EBIT profit margin on the Model E in 2022.

#Damnevenworsethanexpected
 

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
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I prefer use taxes over income taxes. Why should people who don't use roads or bridges have to pay the same amount as people who use them constantly?

With both ICEs, hybrids and EVs all using roads for the next couple decades or so, something's gonna have to change. Would be nice to see it be something sensible and pragmatic and non-ideological. Fat chance, but a boy can dream.
 

RU4Real

Heisman
Jul 25, 2001
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General budget. Keep it simple.

Dear dumbass,

That's not an answer. Please, in the future, provide substantive inputs. If, as befits tradition, you have no substantive inputs, then stifle yourself.

Put another way:

Where does the revenue come from? If you eliminate all fuel taxes at the state and federal level then that revenue HAS TO BE F*CKING REPLACED WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

Your idiocy is tiresome, really.
 
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T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
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Dear dumbass,

That's not an answer. Please, in the future, provide substantive inputs. If, as befits tradition, you have no substantive inputs, then stifle yourself.

Put another way:

Where does the revenue come from? If you eliminate all fuel taxes at the state and federal level then that revenue HAS TO BE F*CKING REPLACED WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

Your idiocy is tiresome, really.
General budget. Simple answer for those with common sense.
 
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mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
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While the article makes valid points, it doesn't matter. People have been complaining about huge fuel-inefficient, deadly, cars for decades. Despite that, Americans have gravitated towards huge pickup trucks and SUVs.

Getting Americans to buy an EV is already going to be a bit of a struggle, at least in some regions of the country. It will happen but it's gonna take some time. Not all states are CA in this regard.

Getting Americans to give up their large SUVs and drive tiny ugly slippery EVs with compromised range is just not going to happen anytime soon, probably never. Some other technology for powering vehicles that doesn't carry the weight penalty of super-sized batteries will almost certainly happen first.

I'm not stating a personal judgement here. Just pointing out an obvious reality.
 

RU4Real

Heisman
Jul 25, 2001
50,955
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General budget. Simple answer for those with common sense.

You're a f*ckin' moron. Budget = revenue - expense. The current revenue is derived from fuel taxes. Current expenses = highway maintenance. You're removing the revenue. It has to be replaced.
 

T2Kplus20

Heisman
May 1, 2007
31,157
19,178
113
You're a f*ckin' moron. Budget = revenue - expense. The current revenue is derived from fuel taxes. Current expenses = highway maintenance. You're removing the revenue. It has to be replaced.
LOL! You will figure it out soon.
 

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
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This isn't surprising to many of us and I'm glad these investigations are taking place.

I wonder, however, if it's just Tesla being investigated, or if all these systems are being investigated. I hope it's all of them. Perhaps Tesla is seeing more accidents, but Tesla may also comprise the majority of cars employing such systems on a regular basis.

Doesn't mean other manufacturers systems are inherently safer or better, if that's the case. Just means they're not used as much.

I think the concern thing is these systems are still used in a small percentage of cars on the roads. If we're hearing about problems already, imagine what will happen when the systems are in far more widespread use.
 

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
55,607
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The article says they're digging the 24" wheels. Prospective owners might want to look up the cost of a replacement set of tires for such wheels. I did for the 22" wheels on the SUV I've got on order and TireRack had one set of all-season tires for it. At $4000 a set.

There's an inflation pun to be made here, but jeez, that's a lot for a set of mostly ordinary tires. Imagine what 24" tires will cost.
 

RUevolution36

All-American
Sep 18, 2006
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The article says they're digging the 24" wheels. Prospective owners might want to look up the cost of a replacement set of tires for such wheels. I did for the 22" wheels on the SUV I've got on order and TireRack had one set of all-season tires for it. At $4000 a set.

There's an inflation pun to be made here, but jeez, that's a lot for a set of mostly ordinary tires. Imagine what 24" tires will cost.
i would assume that such a heavy EV would be going thru those tires quicker than a gas powered car also
 

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
55,607
51,272
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i would assume that such a heavy EV would be going thru those tires quicker than a gas powered car also
I would think, yes. If I were ordering an Escalade, I'd go for smaller wheels with more sidewall (assuming it's an option) which would mean more tire choices with less cost and an even softer ride. It's not a vehicle intended for performance driving so there's absolutely no good reason to spec such huge wheels with lower profile tires.
 

mildone_rivals

Heisman
Dec 19, 2011
55,607
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not specific to EV's, but there was mention of a Mach-E in there, so i'll call it relevant...

I agree that ADMs are BS. People are paying 5 figure ADMS for Kia Tellurides. It's pretty nuts and it sucks.

However, if I stuck to my principles about it, I wouldn't have a GT3 coming. I'd be one of hundreds on Rennlist complaining about being on endless waitlists. I'm just hoping my dealership-driven posterior soreness heals up by the time the car arrives so I can actually sit in it.

I see a lot of folks buying stuff through leases and loans with pretty awful interest rates these days. Seems like a prescription for widespread pain for individuals and banks if the economy crashes and burns and lots of people lose their jobs.
 

RUevolution36

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Sep 18, 2006
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I agree that ADMs are BS. People are paying 5 figure ADMS for Kia Tellurides. It's pretty nuts and it sucks.

However, if I stuck to my principles about it, I wouldn't have a GT3 coming. I'd be one of hundreds on Rennlist complaining about being on endless waitlists. I'm just hoping my dealership-driven posterior soreness heals up by the time the car arrives so I can actually sit in it.

I see a lot of folks buying stuff through leases and loans with pretty awful interest rates these days. Seems like a prescription for widespread pain for individuals and banks if the economy crashes and burns and lots of people lose their jobs.