I don't know if it needs to proceed it, but it definitely needs to grow in line with. Sounds like we are still behind here in the states, with maybe a big push coming, not sure about Europe.
OT: Electric vehicles
- Thread starter BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap
- Start date
Thing is, why would anybody without access to at-home charging get an EV today? It'd be dumb. And there are shitloads of people living in cities with no at-home access to charging an EV.
Gotta solve that problem to get tons of people to even consider an EV.
Getting people past the perception that this is a problem will also be key. California probably isn’t the best measuring stick but I can tell you living in LA and San Diego without at home charging is a non issue, same for NJ. You can live on the coasts without at home charging, it’s everywhere in between that needs building out.
That's just not true. At least not until public charging is at least 1.5 times more ubiquitous as gas stations, and battery and charging tech has improved significantly so as to allow a "full" charge in about the same amount of time as filling up at the gas station.
You can't just impose your view on the level of inconvenience onto other people - that never works out. Americans HATE being inconvenienced. That's the reality in the US and it's why public charging infrastructure is so critical to maintain adoption here.
If you have at-home charging, you're only ever inconvenienced while on a long trip. If you don't have at-home charging, you're inconvenienced every time the battery gets low. People don't like stopping for gas, but it's generally very quick and easy. And gas stations are everywhere.
Stopping for a charge can be easy and quick, especially if only topping off a bit to get home where you can fully charge overnight. With no at-home charging, people will want to charge all the way up and if you stop at a charger just as someone else rolls in ahead of you, and they want to charge all the way 'cause they live in an apartment in a high-rise, then quick and easy is already out the window.
My point exactly, the gap between reality (people with ev’s sharing their lived experience) and perception (potential buyers concerned with hypotheticals) needs to be bridged. That along with more chargers will help with adoption.
You understand, right, that talking about a hypothetical EV owner's future experience is ALWAYS hypothetical, regardless of anybody else's prior "lived experience"?
I don't think fooling people by using best-case anecdotes, or by imposing one's high-tolerance for delays, will help with EV adoption. I think it will backfire. I've read stuff suggesting that it may already be backfiring for some folks.
Time is, by far, the most precious thing any of us possess. Lots of people understand this and do not respond well to even occasional long delays when an alternative with far fewer and shorter delays exists. No amount of positive hypotheticals or positive experiences can overcome the reality of the possibility of negative hypotheticals and negative experiences.
Only reducing the likelihood of having a negative experience can work. The rest is smoke and mirrors or hand-waving real problems away.
It’s not fooling anyone. Chargers are likely as ubiquitous as gas stations in California at this point when you factor in home charging. I’d argue that charging your car while shopping for groceries every week is more convenient than going to the gas station. All of your comments about more charging, better batteries, etc are great. But again, real life examples of how easy charging is in many places is by no means smoke and mirrors, it’s the info people are looking for when considering EV’s. They ask their neighbor how their experience is. Both macro and micro level changes help move this along.You understand, right, that talking about a hypothetical EV owner's future experience is ALWAYS hypothetical, regardless of anybody else's prior "lived experience"?
I don't think fooling people by using best-case anecdotes, or by imposing one's high-tolerance for delays, will help with EV adoption. I think it will backfire. I've read stuff suggesting that it may already be backfiring for some folks.
Time is, by far, the most precious thing any of us possess. Lots of people understand this and do not respond well to even occasional long delays when an alternative with far fewer and shorter delays exists. No amount of positive hypotheticals or positive experiences can overcome the reality of the possibility of negative hypotheticals and negative experiences.
Only reducing the likelihood of having a negative experience can work. The rest is smoke and mirrors or hand-waving real problems away.
CA is the state with more best case scenarios than any other state.
What happens when you visit a store and all the chargers are in use already? What happens when you urgently need to go somewhere a full charge away and are too low on charge 'cause you were waiting to go to the food store and only have enough charge to get there?
You telling me that's not real life?
You're still trying to use best case scenarios as good advice for prospective EV buyers who lack at-home charging. But good advice to actually be good, it cannot ignore all bad scenarios. That's not good advice, it's proselytizing.
You cannot argue that it's wise to refuse to consider realistic hypothetical situations when making decisions about what car to buy. I mean, that'd be like me telling you that much of the time you go places, you only need room for two people in your car, so go ahead and get a two-seater sports car as your only car and just make multiple trips when you need to bring your kid and your wife.
I said from the beginning that California was a bad yard stick, but one that can be achieved rather quickly by other states.CA is the state with more best case scenarios than any other state.
What happens when you visit a store and all the chargers are in use already? What happens when you urgently need to go somewhere a full charge away and are too low on charge 'cause you were waiting to go to the food store and only have enough charge to get there?
You telling me that's not real life?
You're still trying to use best case scenarios as good advice for prospective EV buyers who lack at-home charging. But good advice to actually be good, it cannot ignore all bad scenarios. That's not good advice, it's proselytizing.
You cannot argue that it's wise to refuse to consider realistic hypothetical situations when making decisions about what car to buy. I mean, that'd be like me telling you that much of the time you go places, you only need room for two people in your car, so go ahead and get a two-seater sports car as your only car and just make multiple trips when you need to bring your kid and your wife.
In three years I’ve had to wait for a charger twice. I can count as many times that the gas stations in my town were closed due to power outages in that time period. Waiting for chargers is rare.
Sure you can come up with a million one off scenarios. I’m giving the best case, you’re giving the worst case. People make their decisions in the middle, most often based on feedback from peers.
You have at-home charging and therefore likely don’t have to use a public charger as often as someone who lacks at-home charging.
I’m don’t think I’m citing a worst case, btw. I think I’m citing a scenario that happens to people all the time. The need for a sudden unexpected drive while low oh fuel, whatever that fuel type is.
Ironically, for EV owners who can charge at home, it’s ICEVs that are at a disadvantage in that scenario ‘cause the EV is probably less likely to experience low-charge conditions than an ICEV under similar conditions, long as the EV owner always keeps the car on the charger at home as a matter of habit.
I think everybody should pull together to force adoption of ubiquitous public charging everywhere policies because that eliminates most of the realistic bad scenarios. Imagine if every parking spot was required to supply charging. If you park a car, you can charge it. That solves the issue.
I went a month in NJ, three in San Diego and three in LA with no charging at home so I became pretty familiar with public charging. I agree there should be more charging. I’m also confident there’s more then you realize and it’s not as much of an inconvenience as you perceive.
I think both of you have good points.
1. I believe there's definitely still a gulf between impression and reality. EV ownership is not as inconvenient as some believe.
2. There are still real-world issues and inconveniences for many drivers that can't be explained away via #1 ...or by saying "that's just a rare outlier."
This thread has been excellent for softening #1 for me personally. I'd like to get an EV as my next vehicle (or the one after).
BUT, it'll be a two-car household, which I classify a "plug-in hybrid" setup because of issues in #2 ...expense of EV equivalent, regular road trips exceeding single-charge mileage, towing, smaller selection of equivalent EV vehicle styles, etc.
1. I believe there's definitely still a gulf between impression and reality. EV ownership is not as inconvenient as some believe.
2. There are still real-world issues and inconveniences for many drivers that can't be explained away via #1 ...or by saying "that's just a rare outlier."
This thread has been excellent for softening #1 for me personally. I'd like to get an EV as my next vehicle (or the one after).
BUT, it'll be a two-car household, which I classify a "plug-in hybrid" setup because of issues in #2 ...expense of EV equivalent, regular road trips exceeding single-charge mileage, towing, smaller selection of equivalent EV vehicle styles, etc.
Is this guy the only guy who is restricted to sell by Tesla? There a bunch CT on resale right now.
YTD, Ford's EV sales are up 88% yoy. For the month of May EV sales were up 65%. For the month EV's accounted for 4.9% of totals sales, compared to 3.3% a year ago.
The Mach-E up 89%, the Lightning up 79%, and the E-Transit up 111% ytd.
Much tougher comps the rest of the way. Nov and Dec of last year is still their best 2 month period to date. See how it sales fares by comparison this year.
The Mach-E up 89%, the Lightning up 79%, and the E-Transit up 111% ytd.
Much tougher comps the rest of the way. Nov and Dec of last year is still their best 2 month period to date. See how it sales fares by comparison this year.
Manufacturers, and especially dealerships, do not much like it when customers flip new cars for profit. But other than no longer doing business with anybody they catch at it, it's hard to prevent.
When negotiating for the GT3, my dealership (both my salesperson and the manager) pressed that point home, asking several times about my intentions with the car and telling stories of prior clients of theirs whom they've blacklisted due to flipping. Long time repeat customers were getting the cars for 30/40 over then flipping them for 60/80 over. That was pissing them off. And it apparently pisses Porsche off at the dealerships when it happens.
They even asked if I'd be willing to sign a one-year no money lien on the car such that I couldn't sell it to anybody but the dealership. Ultimately I didn't have to sign one, but I would've 'cause I wanted to drive the piss out of the car, not make a profit on it.
I've heard similar stories about Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren dealers. OTOH, I've also heard plenty of stories of dealerships "selling" cars to friends who turn around and sell the car back to the dealership. Then the dealership can get around corporate prohibitions against selling over MSRP which don't apply to "used" cars.
Everybody's looking for an angle. I just want to drive.
Well isn’t this something.
Read a story that a hedge fund bought an old coal mine in WVA sight unseen for 2mm. They ordered a study to see what was in the mine and it turned out it was rich in some rare metals that was orth 100+mm. I just feel bad for the previous owner.
IDK where you stayed in NJ, but in South Monmouth and North Ocean County, there is a paucity of public charging. So much so, that if I did not have home charging, we would not have purchased an EV.
Prior owner should’ve done their homework.
WV’s been coming up a lot lately, in my world. One of my kids and his GF are looking at houses there. Her family (NJ residents) owns a house in the WV mountains, so the kids spend a lot of time there and love it.
I’ve been thinking about moving to WV myself. They were telling me about a 70 acre property going for somewhere in the 200’s basically like they’re giving away land. Slap a car barn up on that, stick a cot in the corner; is all I need. I could build a real nice outdoor shooting range on 70 acres. And a small racetrack.
I’m gonna take a road trip down and see what kind of good driving roads there are up in the mountains there. Maybe practice my y’all’s a bit.
Lived in Hunterdon where charging is also sparse, but worked in Burlington where there’s a new Wawa with superchargers on every corner. I’m actually typing this as I charge at a Maple Shade Wawa. There’s 11 superchargers within a 10 mile radius of here. Monmouth needs more Wawas
Had to use the fast charger yesterday. Probably my 1st time using it in 12 months. Didn’t have any issues but it wasn’t consistent. 1st charge was at 150kw charger and got 59kw in 29 min. 2nd charge was at 350kw charger and got 52kw in the same time. Still waiting on the Tesla adapter
Edit to say 29 min instead of 20 min
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We may be waiting a while. In the Lightning forums, there is a thread saying Tesla is making the adapters for Ford, and with the Tesla layoffs, expect delays. My order status still says June delivery.
I’m a fracking illiterate
Yup, that’s the catch with moving to a remote area. Although it’s not really all that remote.
Musk is kinda having a bad year, if a person w/$200B net worth can be said to be having a bad year while healthy.
Aside from the vehicle’s hideous appearance, the stainless steel is a mess. You can see every handprint and stain.
Good point. Having a lot of graceful curves in bodywork is expensive, which is why it’s usually seen more in high end luxury cars and super cars. All the flat surfaces in the CT look awful but probably results in lining Elon’s pockets better.
‘Cause, you know, he’s really struggling financially what with not getting that multibillion dollar pay package (yet).
True. Although my SUV is Chromite Black (very black) and also shows handprints and dirt and all. So I can’t cast stones on that front.
Getting it detailed tomorrow along with getting the radar detector hard-wired.
@Knight Shift @jtung230 what's your avg miles per kwh? I'm at like 2.4 but seeing reports all over the place.