but he's not wrong
I'm amazed at the lack of critical thinking in this thread by 'educated' adults
right or wrong there is a clear lack of objectivity
OT: Electric vehicles
- Thread starter BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap
- Start date
I'm amazed at the lack of critical thinking in this thread by 'educated' adults
right or wrong there is a clear lack of objectivity
Not at all. As I pointed out above, economics killed in-state nuclear and coal fired generation - and those decisions and actions were made before Murphy even took office. Power demand in the US was mostly flat for 20 years until wide spread adoption of Gen ai. The price impact of that has been acute in the northeast and California because that’s where dcs are most concentrated, as well as transmission constraints that prevent movement of power from low cost generation areas to areas of high demand.
awwww so sensitive again. You seemed more easy going when you were Giddy lol.
Yeh except other states replaced coal plants with nat gas plants. Even Washington state, but not Murph. Keep tilting at windmills diddles.
No, the thread has gone off topic. The thread is about EVs. But everyone wants to get their two cents in on every other tangential issue. Threads would be a lot better if they did not veer with every, yeah, but . . . . . . .
Let's stick to EVs. People who own them in general love them.
Other people are angry about certain mandates, which is understandable.
But then certain posters (the usual board jerk and chain yanker who bumped this thread) extends that to mocking people who own EVs or certain EVs. Sad way to be.
Diddy may have started it, but can we keep the topic to EVs, please?
If you guys want to argue about other issues, please start a new thread. I am asking politely and with utmost respect. You too @RUDiddy777 . Please revert back to the thread topic. There has been a lot of useful discussion.
I bought a 2017 Telsa model S 75D with 99,000 miles. The previous owner kept it perfectly. Best car I ever had.
Was going to suggest the same - both interesting and important topics to discuss with facts, but yeah, we’ve drifted away from the op. I actually teach energy (and my work is in overlap of tech and the energy sector) and it’s all moving so quickly, it’s a challenge to keep up (and neither “side” has a monopoly on short sighted energy policy). Enjoyed this exchange.
Just trying to avoid a good thread getting towed.
Back to EVs, still a long way to go with a faster and more reliable charging network for EVs to grow and a much longer way before EVs are the dominant vehicles.
American industry diesn't seem to play the long game if you look back in history. The status quo is what it does best and many American consumers laugh at those that point out that other countries are pulling ahead of the USA when
a product is mentioned.
In the 1950s and early 1960s people laughed at those that claimed Detroit would lose their advantage if they didn't change their product to fit the consumers needs instead of making the auto buyer take what they offered.
Then Cheap Japaneses cars started to become more reliable because Japaneses automakers were investing in the technology that American Car manufactures refused to do and soon Japanese automakers improved their products reliability and in some cases car buyers felt they were better made than American cars and fitted their needs better.
Soon Japaneses cars were a major competitor and in some cases outselling American cars.
Detroit then took notice and started to make their cars more like the Japaneses were making, but did keep some models the same because America Luxury cars didn't have competition from Japanese Luxury cars at that time,
Made in Japan toys were cheap knockoffs compared to American made toys, Japaesse businesses invested in making them better and soon took up a larg place in toy sales in America.
People that once claimed they wouldn't buy toys made in Japan started to prefer them over American manufactured toys.
All it took for that to happen is Japan Auto and toy manufactures to see an opportunity and invest in the type of technology they needed to take advantage of it while American industries felt how we are doing things is making money, so why chance .
This EV discussion is just a repeat of the old auto and toy argument I've brought up in this message.
Just a new issue around 60 years later where some want America to stay with today's way of doing things , while other countries are playing the long game by adding new wrinkles while using what's working good now in order to
build better products in the future and a better way to power a grid for that product to be a more reliable means of transportation and more cost efficient than what's currently being used..
America's lack of foresight 60 years ago is part of the reason why foreign companies are being forced to build plants in the USA today
America fell so far behind because of not wanting to invest in change, that catching up meant having forign companies build plants in the USA so they could claim their products were Made in America while American Industry is told they won't be helped to improve what they offer.
This EV fight is just that.
While China is doing everything it can to take over the EV market Many Americans are acting like what horseless carriages first appeared.: they well never replace the horse because there isn't a reliable way to fuel them.
The way Americans seen the car industry 80 years ago proved wrong and led to foreign dominance, the same type of thinking is happening today.
Best way to get ahead is to keep using the same type of transportation , for now, but invest heavily in EV technology and a power grid that isn't mainly reliant on the fossil fuel industry,
Invest in alternative fuel sources so they become the dominate energy source , but keep fossil fuel as part of the equation to be used if needed
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Agree in part. But you missed an aspect. Check out "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam, written in the mid 80s and is a history of the American auto industry from Henry Ford to that date. Covering the 50s and 60s he cites the lack of foresight and innovation by management that you do. But he also covers the attitude of labor at that time, which can be summed up as "give us big raises and restrictive work rules. Who cares about innovation?"
Although I can cite no single source it would be interesting to study the expansion of the defense industry between 1939 and 1941 that was encouraged by FDR.
$62k for a van that can only go 230 miles probably wasn’t a good idea. Hopefully these companies are learning from mistakes
We have a VW dealership in town. The electric bus/van looked cool in a retro way, but the price and range are pathetic. Whoever thought this was a viable product should be fired.
Yeah, that thing coulda killed it at $40K. Fun, little vehicle but not $62K fun. Needed a California camper version for $62K.
My understanding is that it’s an ID4 with a new body and 50% markup. I would trade my ID4 in for one for a 5k prem, not 20k.
Not following the logic. Tesla is trying to be Robotaxi. The power outage shows the short comings of Robotaxi. Why would this be a reason to buy Tesla?
Teslas weren't affected by the power outage, presumably because of much less reliance on remote operations
an AI answer from my google search on the difference between Telsa and Waymo
>Tesla and Waymo take fundamentally different paths to robotaxis: Waymo uses heavy sensor redundancy (LiDAR, radar, cameras) and HD maps for controlled, geofenced services, offering proven safety in launched cities but feeling more "robotic". Tesla bets on a vision-only (camera) system with AI, aiming for ubiquitous "anywhere" driving via its massive data fleet, providing a more human-like, feature-rich experience but still in pilot stages with more supervised miles and human intervention needed. Waymo currently leads in commercially available, fully driverless services, while Tesla's vision-first approach seeks broader, less-mapped autonomy<
Waymo: The Redundant, Geofenced Specialist
- Technology: Combines LiDAR, radar, and cameras with detailed High-Definition (HD) Maps for precise localization.
- Approach: Focuses on robust redundancy (separate steering/braking systems, backup power) for safety.
- Service: Operates fully driverless robotaxi services in specific, mapped areas (e.g., Phoenix, SF).
- Experience: Described as safe and reliable but can feel sterile or "robotic," with system sounds noticeable.
- Maturity: Considered more mature and widely approved for driverless operation.
- Technology: Relies solely on cameras, powerful AI (HydraNets, Dojo), and vast real-world data from its existing fleet.
- Approach: Aims for "vision-only" autonomy that works anywhere, avoiding expensive LiDAR/HD maps.
- Service: Currently in public trials (e.g., Austin, SF), often with human supervision or less robust performance.
- Experience: Offers a more integrated, human-like feel with entertainment control, music continuity, and seamless parking.
- Maturity: Still considered a work-in-progress, with its vision-only system needing significant advancement for true Level 4/5.
I have been burnt thinking that when replying and using what AI said )
Correct, they still have drivers but fsd wasn’t impacted by the power outage either way. Waymo’s safety drivers are remote so they were
Didn’t see Musk say FSD wasn’t impacted. Musk said Tesla car service unaffected. They just turned Robotaxi to Uber.
FSD operates completely off of in car hardware/software. There is no remote aspect to it. There’s arguments to be made pro and con for Tesla’s strategy and Waymo’s. What is being discussed here is that Waymo being so impacted by a rather simple power outage is a ding against them.
And you are correct, right now robotaxis in California are just like Uber. There’s a pretty good chance that won’t last forever
Excellent summary - As for Maturity - Tesla FSD (supervised) is getting very very close to level4/5. The newest versions on my Model 3 for the last month have been nothing short of amazing. Never disengage unless I want to take a different route. It is also starting to see things (like pedestrians nearing a crosswalk or a dog approaching the road or yielding for other cars) before I do. Drives so smooth that passengers think I am driving. One additional thing to consider - If Tesla pulls this off the - cost per vehicle and the scalability of their model will far far exceed Waymo.
Waymo won the first battle, but the war is far from over! Lidar is very expensive.
Are you on HW3 or 4? I have a 2021 Model 3 on HW3 and it’s great. My wife has a new Model Y on HW4. I didn’t think I’d notice a difference but you absolutely can. It’s remarkable how much better it’s gotten over the last few months.
Not really accurate. My car in fsd drives like my wife- no real issues, no accidents, but there’s times I’d rather drive. The new hardware drives as good if not better than I do. They’re adding billions of miles of training on each version so logically it makes sense. I’m sure you drove just fine when you got your license, but got much better as you gained more experience. Same theory here
Except that human drivers and Robotaxi are held to much different standards. Goes to my point when people say they are so close 10 releases ago is way off. I’m sure it’s getting better but just not that close.
Again, regardless of standard, it’s like saying a 17 year old shouldn't drive because they’ll be a better driver at 30. We are at the point that even Tesla critics are blown away when they actually try it for the first time. We are past the if and officially in the when phase
I have HW4. A 38k car flying off a high volume production line. Waymo is in huge huge trouble long term IMO. Those on this thread that continue on the Waymo/uber bandwagon should put their money where their mouth is and short TSLA. That would be delicious to watch.
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I will never underestimate Google and Jane been a Waymo fan, but it took me two rides and one day walking around San Francisco to see that Waymo uses a glorified trolley track. They go way out of the way to stay on streets they’re comfortable on. The fact that they shut down when traffic signals went out highlighted that.
2x the price and 2x the time to get there is going to be a problem