OT: Largest Hindu Temple outside of Asia

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RUschool

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The largest Hindu temple in the United States opens its doors Sunday in New Jersey. Built in the small township of Robbinsville, the 183-acre BAPS Swaminarayan Akshardham, named for its founding Hindu spiritual organization, rivals major Hindu temples on the subcontinent.

I think I‘ll have to give it a visit, amazing large site.
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

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Buy a plot next door and build a banquet facility/hotel.. it will be booked forever.

(EDIT: after reading teh stories linked by @MrsScrew below... wow.. looks like @koleszar is correct in the use of "slave labor".. I will leave my original response below for original context)

Was once in an Asian city and I always looked for natural wonders to visit on business trips and,in lieu of that, man-made wonders. This would fit. But there I went to a Hindu temple built from caves and noticed it was dirty (human dirt, not guano). On my way to the airport my cabbie suggested a stop at Buddhist temple.. it was spotless. I had to take my shoes off.. but worth it.

What does that have to do with the OP story? I dunno.. I guess I am wondering about the long-term upkeep of this new site. I'd imagine the Taj Mahal and other Hindu sites are very well kept.. but haven't been. I guess we shall see.

@koleszar Volunteers are "basically slave labor"? I do wonder about the building permits and such as it relates to volunteer labor. But what should be a point of pride.. volunteers building it.. taking pride and ownership.. "slave labor" is very insulting imho.
 
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DJ Spanky

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Jul 25, 2001
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@koleszar Volunteers are "basically slave labor"? I do wonder about the building permits and such as it relates to volunteer labor. But what should be a point of pride.. volunteers building it.. taking pride and ownership.. "slave labor" is very insulting imho.

A good part of that story does seem to indicate they took advantage of those of the Dalit caste from India. A sad way to build that temple if true. BUT, as they say, there are 2 sides to every story. Actually 3: "our" side, "their" side, and the truth.

Diversity is good. It means that incoherent people like you are accepted in society.

Yes diversity is good, because it allows people like you to respond with insults instead of addressing the gist of his post.
 

mdk02

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@koleszar Volunteers are "basically slave labor"? I do wonder about the building permits and such as it relates to volunteer labor. But what should be a point of pride.. volunteers building it.. taking pride and ownership.. "slave labor" is very insulting imho.
[/QUOTE]

Jimmy Carter, to his credit, did a lot of volunteer construction work after leaving the White House. There are a few warning signs here that this is different. Might be worth considering to what degree this voluteer and what degree it's slave labor.
 

RU206

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There is a lot to unpack in this thread.
1. Yes, diversity is good.
2. Yes, Volunteering is good
3. Yes, BAPS are known to force “volunteers” to work on construction in the name of religion. It’s not a good practice.
 

Eagleton95.99

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A good part of that story does seem to indicate they took advantage of those of the Dalit caste from India. A sad way to build that temple if true. BUT, as they say, there are 2 sides to every story. Actually 3: "our" side, "their" side, and the truth.



Yes diversity is good, because it allows people like you to respond with insults instead of addressing the gist of his post.
What was the substance? Farmers and global warming? I was not aware of the slave labor issue. I assumed it was BS because it came in such an incoherent comment. I'll look into it.
 

koleszar

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Jan 1, 2010
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Buy a plot next door and build a banquet facility/hotel.. it will be booked forever.

Was once in an Asian city and I always looked for natural wonders to visit on business trips and,in lieu of that, man-made wonders. This would fit. But there I went to a Hindu temple built from caves and noticed it was dirty (human dirt, not guano). On my way to the airport my cabbie suggested a stop at Buddhist temple.. it was spotless. I had to take my shoes off.. but worth it.

What does that have to do with the OP story? I dunno.. I guess I am wondering about the long-term upkeep of this new site. I'd imagine the Taj Mahal and other Hindu sites are very well kept.. but haven't been. I guess we shall see.

@koleszar Volunteers are "basically slave labor"? I do wonder about the building permits and such as it relates to volunteer labor. But what should be a point of pride.. volunteers building it.. taking pride and ownership.. "slave labor" is very insulting imho.
Please learn more about BAPS and their practices before commenting.
 
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RUPete

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Feb 5, 2003
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There is a lot to unpack in this thread.
1. Yes, diversity is good.
2. Yes, Volunteering is good
3. Yes, BAPS are known to force “volunteers” to work on construction in the name of religion. It’s not a good practice.
Yes there was controversy around the labor used to build this temple. There’s a difference between volunteer and voluntold or volunheld.
 

Eagleton95.99

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So I did jump the gun here: I thought it was some racist anti-Indian BS. But it seems that this religious sect does have a history of accusations of abusing volunteer labor. But this sect also has a history of it's members being incredibly generous with their volunteering as part of their devotion. So who knows? It might be a case of US officials applying US labor laws to an Indian cultural phenomenon that doesn't fit. Or maybe this was massive labor abuse. There is a lawsuit and a criminal investigation that haven't produced answers yet. 🤷‍♂️
 

ashokan

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May 3, 2011
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I once read a wise old quote that said "It takes an intelligent person to discern the differences between people, and it takes a genius to discern their commonalities."

The view discerning commonality is being dissolved unfortunately and that's been by design. "Diversity" as promoted is just the old "divide and conquer." One of the more obvious lessons of history is that different cultures are naturally conflicted as egotistical tribalism is at odds with loftier civilizing impulses.

The more organically civilized people are within themselves are the less they will be slaves to exterior conditioning. When society is subject to more sophisticated humans good things evolve. Once the people divide into conditioned cultural tribes the worse things get. That's where the US is going now as its been brainwashed into rejecting its character and successes to become mere GPS coordinates for the cultural tribes to infiltrate and re-seed the same old failed conditionings.

Many Americans are mostly hollowed out and the lowest and most bizarre things are being held-up as "better than normal." Civilizing people and principles are being targeted for eradication. Founders warned the Constitution needed a moral people and thats mostly gone now - people are crazy. That's why are close to the biggest war in history. What we see in Israel will be worse in US/Europe as as the barbarian hordes are being seeded in by the millions while wine moms and dads worry about plastic bags and cow farts (a set-up to seize control of your food production ).


Subversion​


"Subversion (from Latin subvertere 'overthrow') refers to a process by which the values and principles of a system in place are contradicted or reversed in an attempt to sabotage the established social order and its structures of power, authority, tradition, hierarchy, and social norms. Subversion can be described as an attack on the public morale and, "the will to resist intervention are the products of combined political and social or class loyalties which are usually attached to national symbols... Subversion is used as a tool to achieve political goals because it generally carries less risk, cost, and difficulty as opposed to open belligerency. Furthermore, it is a relatively cheap form of warfare that does not require large amounts of training"

 

newell138

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Aug 1, 2001
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Buy a plot next door and build a banquet facility/hotel.. it will be booked forever.

Was once in an Asian city and I always looked for natural wonders to visit on business trips and,in lieu of that, man-made wonders. This would fit. But there I went to a Hindu temple built from caves and noticed it was dirty (human dirt, not guano). On my way to the airport my cabbie suggested a stop at Buddhist temple.. it was spotless. I had to take my shoes off.. but worth it.

What does that have to do with the OP story? I dunno.. I guess I am wondering about the long-term upkeep of this new site. I'd imagine the Taj Mahal and other Hindu sites are very well kept.. but haven't been. I guess we shall see.

@koleszar Volunteers are "basically slave labor"? I do wonder about the building permits and such as it relates to volunteer labor. But what should be a point of pride.. volunteers building it.. taking pride and ownership.. "slave labor" is very insulting imho.
Volunteers lol. People were basically brought over as indentured servants to work construction
 
Sep 27, 2006
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Diversity is good. It means that incoherent people like you are accepted in society.

He's not incoherent. He's correct.
"Volunteers" who don't get paid. Who are promised good things to come to America & help build this building to God.
At least 3 deaths including a 15y/o boy who should not have been working at all.
FBI raid freeing dozens of men who had their passports taken away & got $1 a day
Women rescued from a house with carbon monoxide gas & the doors & windows bolted shut with boards.
 
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Please learn more about BAPS and their practices before commenting.

I live in Robbinsville & know about BAPS.
Yes they are generous with their time & money, but the building of this temple covered up human labor & basically slavery while putting on a different act for the general public
 
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newell138

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He's not incoherent. He's correct.
"Volunteers" who don't get paid. Who are promised good things to come to America & help build this building to God.
At least 3 deaths including a 15y/o boy who should not have been working at all.
FBI raid freeing dozens of men who had their passports taken away & got $1 a day
Women rescued from a house with carbon monoxide gas & the doors & windows bolted shut with boards.
The guy I sold my house to here in OC came from Robbinsville. Lived there for a long time and we’ve become good friends. He’s filled me in on some of the details but didn’t hear some of what you posted. That’s insane
 

Eagleton95.99

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Jul 25, 2001
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I once read a wise old quote that said "It takes an intelligent person to discern the differences between people, and it takes a genius to discern their commonalities."

The view discerning commonality is being dissolved unfortunately and that's been by design. "Diversity" as promoted is just the old "divide and conquer." One of the more obvious lessons of history is that different cultures are naturally conflicted as egotistical tribalism is at odds with loftier civilizing impulses.

The more organically civilized people are within themselves are the less they will be slaves to exterior conditioning. When society is subject to more sophisticated humans good things evolve. Once the people divide into conditioned cultural tribes the worse things get. That's where the US is going now as its been brainwashed into rejecting its character and successes to become mere GPS coordinates for the cultural tribes to infiltrate and re-seed the same old failed conditionings.

Many Americans are mostly hollowed out and the lowest and most bizarre things are being held-up as "better than normal." Civilizing people and principles are being targeted for eradication. Founders warned the Constitution needed a moral people and thats mostly gone now - people are crazy. That's why are close to the biggest war in history. What we see in Israel will be worse in US/Europe as as the barbarian hordes are being seeded in by the millions while wine moms and dads worry about plastic bags and cow farts (a set-up to seize control of your food production ).


Subversion​


"Subversion (from Latin subvertere 'overthrow') refers to a process by which the values and principles of a system in place are contradicted or reversed in an attempt to sabotage the established social order and its structures of power, authority, tradition, hierarchy, and social norms. Subversion can be described as an attack on the public morale and, "the will to resist intervention are the products of combined political and social or class loyalties which are usually attached to national symbols... Subversion is used as a tool to achieve political goals because it generally carries less risk, cost, and difficulty as opposed to open belligerency. Furthermore, it is a relatively cheap form of warfare that does not require large amounts of training"

OK, that was a little hard to follow. Let me see if I got this right. You are saying: Humans have a propensity toward tribalism and focusing on division. Our ability to see ourselves as one people is important. DEI efforts are degrading our sense of commonality. In general diversity prevents us from being unified (because different races and religions etc. naturally can't get along). Immigration is "seeding" barbarians in our midst and done intentionally to further this. The great war is upon us, and immigrants in our midst are basically the reason. Efforts to combat climate change and litter are misguided because they aren't focused on the DEI great war.

Did I get that right?
 

Eagleton95.99

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Jul 25, 2001
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He's not incoherent. He's correct.
"Volunteers" who don't get paid. Who are promised good things to come to America & help build this building to God.
At least 3 deaths including a 15y/o boy who should not have been working at all.
FBI raid freeing dozens of men who had their passports taken away & got $1 a day
Women rescued from a house with carbon monoxide gas & the doors & windows bolted shut with boards.
He may be correct in saying that there was labor exploitation. The jury is literally out on that. But he was wrong to equate that to "diversity" and climate change. He said something with a kernel of truth, and then seemed to tie it to a laundry list of wingnut complaints about society.
 
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Sep 27, 2006
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He may be correct in saying that there was labor exploitation. The jury is literally out on that. But he was wrong to equate that to "diversity" and climate change. He said something with a kernel of truth, and then seemed to tie it to a laundry list of wingnut complaints about society.

I'll give you that.

But the jury isn't out on a 15y/o boy dying from falling off of scaffolding he should never have been on or on women being literally locked into a house with one exit while the others were boarded up.

BAPS has 2 faces. The public one & the private in house slave labor one.
 

GoodOl'Rutgers

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Sep 11, 2006
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There is a lot to unpack in this thread.
1. Yes, diversity is good.
2. Yes, Volunteering is good
3. Yes, BAPS are known to force “volunteers” to work on construction in the name of religion. It’s not a good practice.
@koleszar @DJ Spanky and others.. I jumped to a conclusion re: "slave labor".. as @RU205 says above.. there's a lot to unpack here. Caste systems truly are one of the worst things in the world and so foreign a concept to Americans like me that I did not even consider it as a major factor here.

One of my favorite novels back in the day was Ken Follet's Pillars of the Earth. A giant cathedral aficionado from England he was born to write such a novel. It covers ways the church used to motivate "volunteers" and "pay" them with promises of absolution and easier entry into heaven and so on. And while some evils of the church are covered (easily done because the Catholic church had been replaced by the Anglican after the time in which the novel takes place) it seems to not approach that of "slave labor" in any way. More of case of the nobility screwing over contractors because they can.
 
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RUschool

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I’m surprised the town community didn't protest the building of the temple. It looks like it took 12 years to build it so how did it get finished with all these accusations.
 
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koleszar

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Jan 1, 2010
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He may be correct in saying that there was labor exploitation. The jury is literally out on that. But he was wrong to equate that to "diversity" and climate change. He said something with a kernel of truth, and then seemed to tie it to a laundry list of wingnut complaints about society.
-So, all diversity is good even if those diverse parties practice basically slave labor? They built a shrine on the back of indentured servitude.

-Look at the size of this thing numb nuts. Of the 183 acres, looks like they covered 160 acres of it with concrete and asphalt. What was once farmland is now dead space. In case you haven't read the news, there's been attacks on farming practices in the name of Global Warming. But of course, you wouldn't care about them, they don't concern your urban/suburban world.

-Farming bad and aids to Global Warming but 160 acre religious buildings and parking, good. Wingnut complaint my ***.
 
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brgRC90

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Apr 8, 2008
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OK, that was a little hard to follow. Let me see if I got this right. You are saying: Humans have a propensity toward tribalism and focusing on division. Our ability to see ourselves as one people is important. DEI efforts are degrading our sense of commonality. In general diversity prevents us from being unified (because different races and religions etc. naturally can't get along). Immigration is "seeding" barbarians in our midst and done intentionally to further this. The great war is upon us, and immigrants in our midst are basically the reason. Efforts to combat climate change and litter are misguided because they aren't focused on the DEI great war.

Did I get that right?
Ignore him. His argument was basically reminiscent of the fascism of the 20s and 30s--and today--arguing for purity and not just against diversity but, in typical fashion, how diversity is part of a larger plot to subvert all that is right and good. In case, you haven't noticed certain people always find a way to portray those who are different and who they don't like as dangerous and tolerance towards them an attempt to destroy pre-existing culture. It justifies, in their minds, intolerance and discrimination and legal suppression. After all, it's dangerous.
 

mdk02

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Aug 18, 2011
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I’m surprised the town community didn't protest the building of the temple. I looks like it took 12 years to build it so how did it get finished with all these accusations.

What and when did they become aware of the possible violations? Looks like it was a pretty insular site, with the workers housed on site in forms.
 

RUschool

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Jan 23, 2004
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What and when did they become aware of the possible violations? Looks like it was a pretty insular site, with the workers housed on site in forms.
If this was build anywhere in North Jersey, I’m sure there would be protest just due to the size. I guess the town approved the construction.
 
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What and when did they become aware of the possible violations? Looks like it was a pretty insular site, with the workers housed on site in forms.

See my post above, #21, with the links to known violations. 2017 was the first death....6 years into the project.
BAPS paid for a light & a new road to be built and yes, it's pretty far back off the road & very insular.
The "volunteers " see this as a mission for God so unlikely there were many complaints until things got really bad in 2021. Many of them don't speak English so that complicates things further.

I know for fact, however, that many of the volunteers are well off, 1st generation Americans so this is not all indentured servants.
 

iReC89

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Hard to praise this place until they make good to the Dalit workers who were mistreated. These “volunteers” from a different religion were trafficked to Robbinsville from India to work and freed in an FBI raid. Some of the workers who filed the complaint have recently left the suit and flipped their story. I’m not buying it.

Several illegal and unsafe boarding operations with locked exits were recently uncovered.

That said, anyone you meet from this temple is very nice and they do good things in the community.
 

brgRC90

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Apr 8, 2008
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Hard to praise this place until they make good to the Dalit workers who were mistreated. These “volunteers” from a different religion were trafficked to Robbinsville from India to work and freed in an FBI raid. Some of the workers who filed the complaint have recently left the suit and flipped their story. I’m not buying it.

Several illegal and unsafe boarding operations with locked exits were recently uncovered.

That said, anyone you meet from this temple is very nice and they do good things in the community.
But then you can say the same thing about Scientologists, Mormon Fundamentalists and Moonies. That doesn't excuse everything.
 

iReC89

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Local politicians
But then you can say the same thing about Scientologists, Mormon Fundamentalists and Moonies. That doesn't excuse everything.
I’m not following you. The people who built the church and managed construction practices are generally not the congregants so I’m not going to fault them for unfair wage practices. Cultural differences exist. We just have to be clear that slave wages are not acceptable here, and full restitution is expected. My understanding from people I know is that domestic help is available on the cheap in India, and having multiple helpers is not uncommon.
 

Eagleton95.99

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-So, all diversity is good even if those diverse parties practice basically slave labor? They built a shrine on the back of indentured servitude.

-Look at the size of this thing numb nuts. Of the 183 acres, looks like they covered 160 acres of it with concrete and asphalt. What was once farmland is now dead space. In case you haven't read the news, there's been attacks on farming practices in the name of Global Warming. But of course, you wouldn't care about them, they don't concern your urban/suburban world.

-Farming bad and aids to Global Warming but 160 acre religious buildings and parking, good. Wingnut complaint my ***.
Indian culture in NJ is diversity and it’s good. One congregation that is a bad actor (which it seems like they may have but I’ve yet to see the charges or anything official so I’m reserving judgement) is not diversity. There are ******** and bad actors in any group. Equating the actions of some people in a group to the whole group is prejudice.

And what does this have to do with farmers, or things I care about? And how do you know what I care about? I assume you are pigeon holing me into some stereo type you learned on cable news.
 
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