OT: Missing Titanic Sub

[MoreCowbellRU]

well those folks weren't on scene due to diversity considerations

aside from gluing the CF to the hull, manually ratcheting the tube shut, nothing being certified or going through any kind of QA, and the litany of other issues one could describe, no one needs James Cameron to say 'don't do this' ha

all deep dive submersibles go through vast checks on a schedule and it's clear this didn't happen here. The hubris and lack of situational awareness here is astounding. This is an epic fail on so many levels and yet, seemingly intelligent persons paid larges sums to do this. mind blowing

going to the moon is easier than diving the depths of the oceans

Yeah those old white guys that know about science and stuff wouldn't be helpful.
I want the most CAPABLE and QUALIFIED people designing, building and driving anything that my life depends on. I don't care where they are from, what color they are, who they marry or what their pronouns are.

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

You have a list of all the people "on scene" and their qualifications, do you? No? Didn't think so.

I think the supposition is correct based on the owner saying he made his hiring decisions based on DEI nonsense. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to solve this one.

 

[mildone_rivals]

Yeah those old white guys that know about science and stuff wouldn't be helpful.
I want the most CAPABLE and QUALIFIED people designing, building and driving anything that my life depends on. I don't care where they are from, what color they are, who they marry or what their pronouns are.

I think we all want that. And we don't actually know, despite what the dead dude said on video, that the folks involved were in any way underqualified or incapable here. People are basing a lot off of a statement the guy made, but then the guy made several stupid statements.

I've known several extremely smart people who somewhat regularly make stupid statements that don't reflect how they actually operate. Maybe this guy acted as stupidly as his statements made it look. But maybe not.

 

[mildone_rivals]

I think the supposition is correct based on the owner saying he made his hiring decisions based on DEI nonsense. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to solve this one.

Actually, Sherlock Holmes would tell you not to make assumptions. That he he said a dumb thing doesn't mean he didn't hire capable and qualified people.

That guy wouldn't be anywhere near the top of a list of people who say one thing and then do another.

 

[brgRC90]

And he did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night..

I'd trust James Cameron's words on this more than message board geniuses.

 

[Randal7]

https://www.theonion.com/critics-say-submersible-should-ve-been-tested-with-poor-1850566314

 

[RU4Real]

The news articles all report that the implosion detection wasn't considered definitive enough to halt the search. However, I suspect the Navy was certain early on, but was hesitant to reveal that they knew because doing so would lead to questions about intelligence capabilities.

We'll probably never know this, or many other details, for sure. But if the Navy was confident in what it now says it heard (the implosion) and confident that it could only be the submersible causing that sound, then that would explain the US telling the British recovery vehicle to stand down rather than deploy to the area.

The existence of US underwater detection capabilities is, as @RU4Real said earlier, an open secret. But the exact details of that capabilities are not something we want to advertise. I imagine lots of higher-level discussions took place about what could be publicly disclosed and when.

IMO, the US probably shouldn't have given out the information that they heard the implosion at all. Not even to the onsite search team. The debris would eventually be found anyway. National security trumps easing the uncertainty of the victim's families. And national security priorities dwarf the public's desire to "know stuff" about such events.

All that aside, the sound of an implosion would be classified as a transient.

Absent any other characterizing sounds to add to the analysis, the sonar teams would have absolutely no idea what the source of the transient might be. They would know that it occurred at approximately the same time as the sub was operating and in the same general direction - but that's ALL they would know. And that information, alone, is insufficient to call off a rescue operation.

FWIW, transient noises emanating from the location of Titanic would not be uncommon, as the wreck continues to decay and parts of the remaining structure fail.

 

[WhiteBus]

I'd trust James Cameron's words on this more than message board geniuses.

Exactly. The guy has actually gone down in a submersible before. Ironically on 9/11/2001. He did his homework on these vehicles and has kept up with it.

 

[RUTGERS95]

You have a list of all the people "on scene" and their qualifications, do you? No? Didn't think so.

reading is fundamental huh

you can find the team, experience etc online on top of that, CEO comments and ex employees are pretty supportive of this but hey, liberal sensitivities be damned

shut your mouth and read more, feel less, don't be ignorant

 

[RUTGERS95]

Yeah those old white guys that know about science and stuff wouldn't be helpful.
I want the most CAPABLE and QUALIFIED people designing, building and driving anything that my life depends on. I don't care where they are from, what color they are, who they marry or what their pronouns are.

exactly

in your face racism by the ceo and no lefty has an issue with it

the stupidity of the left never ceases to amaze me

 

[mildone_rivals]

All that aside, the sound of an implosion would be classified as a transient.

Absent any other characterizing sounds to add to the analysis, the sonar teams would have absolutely no idea what the source of the transient might be. They would know that it occurred at approximately the same time as the sub was operating and in the same general direction - but that's ALL they would know. And that information, alone, is insufficient to call off a rescue operation.

FWIW, transient noises emanating from the location of Titanic would not be uncommon, as the wreck continues to decay and parts of the remaining structure fail.

I hear you. But that's kind of my point. What you say makes perfect sense based on what we already know (i.e. public knowledge about our capabilities). But we don't know what we don't know and the Navy isn't telling us.

So we can't know, for certain, what was used to detect the transient (SOSUS or a nearby sub, nearby surface vessel or aircraft or all the above or something else entirely). We can only speculate based on what we do know, not what we don't know. But can also speculate that there's stuff we don't know.

My read (speculation) of the situation the way it played out is that the Navy did, in fact, know with near-certainty, if not complete certainty, that the submersible imploded pretty much when it happened. The big hint is the seemingly inexplicable early refusal of assistance from the British recovery craft. That indicates a better than understood capability.

If my read is accurate, then I object to us releasing the information along with telling the British no thanks on the recovery vehicle because, well, I'm not the only person who will have put that information together with the timeline of events and formed the same theory.

OTOH, it could be subtle partial misinformation. Or maybe the decision was that enemies knowing we can detect stuff better than before is not such a bad thing. Or maybe the refusal of the proffered British aid was not what it now looks like (for example it could've been US-British cooperation to misinform).

Anyway, we'll never know but it's fun to think about.

 

[brgRC90]

Exactly. The guy has actually gone down in a submersible before. Ironically on 9/11/2001. He did his homework on these vehicles and has kept up with it.

He's been to Titanic 33 times and even deeper. How many times have our board experts dove into the deep ocean?

 

[mildone_rivals]

reading is fundamental huh

you can find the team, experience etc online on top of that, CEO comments and ex employees are pretty supportive of this but hey, liberal sensitivities be damned

shut your mouth and read more, feel less, don't be ignorant

Funny, but I'm not seeing you supply links to all the information online about who was "on the scene" (your words, not mine) and what their qualifications are.

Ocean Gate's website is down, unsurprisingly. So it becomes even more of a mystery where you're finding all that information. It couldn't possibly be agenda-driven propaganda websites crafting an ideological message for sheep to bleat, now could it?

Banish the very thought.

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

He's been to Titanic 33 times and even deeper. How many times have our board experts dove into the deep ocean?

I've flown hundreds of times in planes of all shapes and sizes. Does that make me an aerospace engineer? If so I'll have to update the resume'.

 

[brgRC90]

I've flown hundreds of times in planes of all shapes and sizes. Does that make me an aerospace engineer? If so I'll have to update the resume'.

But James Cameron helped design his own vehicle AND he rode in it.

 

[Purple-Ed]

He's been to Titanic 33 times and even deeper. How many times have our board experts dove into the deep ocean?

My deepest dive was 105 feet in the Cayman Islands.

Trust me, that was deep.

 

[RutgersK1d]

This may be a stupid question but wouldn’t the mother ship feel the implosion if it was above it?

 

[RutgersK1d]

My deepest dive was 105 feet in the Cayman Islands.

Trust me, that was deep.

No thank you. That’s impressive.

 

[Purple-Ed]

No thank you. That’s impressive.

Trust me, it's not impressive.

 

[CERU00]

Hadn’t that submersible been down to the Titanic twice already?

Using carbon fiber makes a material tougher, less brittle. Exposing this material about the 1st cracking stress(the point of inflection on a stress strain curve) creates tiny cracks in the matrix which would be undetectable without very good non destructive testing. Those cracks would continue to grow until the point of failure. So, the stress history of the vessel and the mechanical properties of the hull, it's possible it could survive some length of time exposed to specific pressures. But anyone with any experience with composites would be very aware of it's limitations. I would be interested to understand what inspections were performed after each dive.

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

But James Cameron helped design his own vehicle AND he rode in it.

So did the guy that just
imploded.

Cameron was actually a passenger in an older Russian designed, built and operated Mir sub.

EDIT: The Mir was designed and built in Finland for the Russian Academy of Sciences.

He was probably a child when it was on the drawing board . I'll stick with actual , competent and QUALIFIED folks
for information . Cameron is an opportunist getting his face in front of a camera.

 

[mildone_rivals]

This may be a stupid question but wouldn’t the mother ship feel the implosion if it was above it?

I don't think it's a stupid question and I don't know the answer.

But I think the answer is no due to the variables involved: the mass and area of the submersible, the distance between the two vessels, the volume of water and atmospheric and temperature differences between the two vessel, etc.

Combine the values of those variables with the limitations in human sensitivity to vibrations (sound or water waves), and I think the answer would always be no.

 

[RU4Real]

This may be a stupid question but wouldn’t the mother ship feel the implosion if it was above it?

The disturbance in the water column caused by a sudden movement of water 13,000' down to fill a roughly 750 cubic foot void would be completely indiscernible at the surface.

 

[Purple-Ed]

The disturbance in the water column caused by a sudden movement of water 13,000' down to fill a roughly 750 cubic foot void would be completely indiscernible at the surface.

Speculation is they imploded at 3500 feet down.

 

[RuSnp]

The CEO had claimed partnerships with "experts" from NASA, Boeing, and the UW but I'm reading now apparently those entities have stated they were not involved. You add in the "up to and exceeding DNV standards" when they never actually got it classed by DNV (or anybody else) this is really, really sickening. Was the idea to lure rich people on-board with misleading marketing fluff re: safety to fund this continued craziness?

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

My deepest dive was 105 feet in the Cayman Islands.

Trust me, that was deep.

I don't like deep diving either. Not a fan of mixed gas or decompression stops. I'd rather dive a shallow reef and spend more time exploring.

 

[fsg2_rivals]

The CEO had claimed partnerships with "experts" from NASA, Boeing, and the UW but I'm reading now apparently those entities have stated they were not involved. You add in the "up to and exceeding DNV standards" when they never actually got it classed by DNV (or anybody else) this is really, really sickening. Was the idea to lure rich people on-board with misleading marketing fluff re: safety to fund this continued craziness?

Sure sounds like it.

Which is why I don't get all the people putting the blame on the passengers. They were conned and lost their lives because of it.

 

[mildone_rivals]

The CEO had claimed partnerships with "experts" from NASA, Boeing, and the UW but I'm reading now apparently those entities have stated they were not involved. You add in the "up to and exceeding DNV standards" when they never actually got it classed by DNV (or anybody else) this is really, really sickening. Was the idea to lure rich people on-board with marketing fluff to fund this continued craziness?

The guy seems like one of those people who talk a lot of ****. Not exactly rare in entrepreneurs.

Some make the mistake of believing their own BS. Elizabeth Holmes being a recent and very public instance. This Ocean Gate situation seems to be a deadly instance.

 

[LETSGORU91_]

As a customer and passenger?

Maybe for you.

Most on board were customers and passengers. What's the point? It's an extreme adventure for anyone on the boat. Per Merriam Webster: extreme: of, relating to, or being an outdoor activity or a form of a sport (such as skiing) that involves an unusually high degree of physical risk. The official definition cites skiing and downhill mountain biking as extreme, yet given what is known about this dive and the risks involved, deep sea diving to 400x atmospheric pressure in a minivan sub is less risky than skiing? LOL!!
Oh boy, I've wasted enough time on this.

 

[MoreCowbellRU]

Speculation is they imploded at 3500 feet down.

Not doubting you saw this but the report I saw placed the implosion hours after the beginning of the dive. The ride down to the wreck is only a couple hours from what I've read. Timing would put them much deeper than 3500 ft.

Information will become clearer as time goes on. Just like most stories. I just feel terrible for the families of those killed. Trying not to lose sight of that.

 

[fsg2_rivals]

Most on board were customers and passengers. What's the point? It's an extreme adventure for anyone on the boat. Per Merriam Webster: extreme: of, relating to, or being an outdoor activity or a form of a sport (such as skiing) that involves an unusually high degree of physical risk. The official definition cites skiing and downhill mountain biking as extreme, yet given what is known about this dive and the risks involved, deep sea diving to 400x atmospheric pressure in a minivan sub is less risky than skiing? LOL!!
Oh boy, I've wasted enough time on this.

Yes, they were.

Apparently you want to blame them. Have at it.

Skiing at a similarly exploratory level is definitely more of a clear and "physical" risk. Something you take classes before attempting and remain keenly aware of the fact you could perish at many given points on the trip. Plus, you're in charge of your own survival, not paying someone to take care of the transportation while you look out a window.

You should be done with this. Having to use a dictionary and still getting it wrong shows you're in over your depth (pun kinda intended).

 

[RUforester72]

Then you don’t understand how budgets work.

I understand how budgets work and you are still wrong. The work that would have been accomplished, had there been no emergency, does not get done, It is delayed and pushes other work down the schedule. Those are costs. Your assumption that they were just swabbing decks is a tad too cynical.

 

[WhiteBus]

Oh boy, I've wasted enough time on this.

Lol. Me too! The arguments on here are getting beyond silly, even for this board. Im out!

 

[RUBlackout7]

I understand how budgets work and you are still wrong. The work that would have been accomplished, had there been no emergency, does not get done, It is delayed and pushes other work down the schedule. Those are costs. Your assumption that they were just swabbing decks is a tad too cynical.

Yes, all of that “work” they’ll never be able to catch up on after doing actual work for 2 days.

 

[RutgersK1d]

And for what it’s worth, the only personal experience I have with carbon fiber is a paintball tank. (I actually played for Rutgers Paintball team 2008-2010). Those tanks are very small but have 4500psi of pressure contained in them. And they’re filled and used and refilled again A LOT. Those are required to be tested every 10 years and are often connected to a steel valve. Carbon fiber in that fashion is extremely strong, but that’s considering the fact that it’s internal pressure pushing outward. So maybe it’s just a poor choice of materials? Again, this is just my common sense knowledge.

 

[tom1944]

I find the undersea exploration more interesting than space exploration.

Both are dangerous but I really would like to see significant increase in the exploration of the oceans at their greatest depths.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220111-why-nasa-is-exploring-the-deepest-oceans-on-earth

 

[RU4Real]

Yes, all of that “work” they’ll never be able to catch up on after doing actual work for 2 days.

There's nobody on those ships that isn't doing their regular job whether it's on station or cruising around the Atlantic.

That's the whole point of military training and readiness. You're trained to do a job and you do that job regardless of the situation.

 

[rureadyforsomefootball]

This may be a stupid question but wouldn’t the mother ship feel the implosion if it was above it?

That is an excellent point!!!!

 

[mildone_rivals]

I find the undersea exploration more interesting than space exploration.

Both are dangerous but I really would like to see significant increase in the exploration of the oceans at their greatest depths.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220111-why-nasa-is-exploring-the-deepest-oceans-on-earth

I think they are equally interesting.

Humanity needs to progress with space travel because, at some point, there are going to be too many people on the planet and we will overwhelm the required resources. And because sooner or later, a killer bacteria or virus will wipe us all out so it would be nice if we have people living somewhere else to continue the species.

But the oceans may also hold promise for helping solve certain issues in the meantime.

 

[RUTGERS95]

My deepest dive was 105 feet in the Cayman Islands.

Trust me, that was deep.

Texas Tower, my gauge said 178 but its' listed to 185 or so, was a hoot! I've not been back since it's sunk further and collapsed. I used to do a lot of diving

you do feel the pressure on the body for sure