OT: USMNT v Honduras Soccer 6-0 Victory
- Thread starter VandalHuskerJulie
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Small teams? Honduras is ranked 60 this year and is down compared to previous years. Nevertheless, a win over them is material for an up and coming U.S. team.
Up and coming? Aren't they getting pretty long in the tooth? I know they have some injuries which has changed the roster so that doesn't help.
Puli sic and Dempsey are a nice combo to watch. Not sure I liked the back line. Against a better attacking team they get exposed quickly IMO.
Yes....Small teams. The USA should wipe the floor with everyone in CONCACAF outside of Mexico and CR. But we should beat those two just as many times as they beat us. Honduras has a nice CONCACAF team but the comparison with the USA and soccer's elite or even soccer's average is not even close.
Honduras has a population of less than 9 million.
Close to the population of New York City.
The USA has a population of almost 350 million.
The USA is one of .....if not the richest countries in the world. GDP of 18 Trillion
Honduras has a GDP of 41 billion.
The USA has played in every World Cup since 1990. (7)
Honduras has played in 2.
The resources available (Nutrition, education, facilities, heathcare) to some of the poorest citizens in the USA would be considered luxuries to many in Honduras.
If you want to learn more about how all of these thing affect a teams performance I suggest you read "Soccernomics" by Simon Kuper and Stefan Syzmanski.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617185-soccernomics
If the matrices mattered that much, the USA would be WAY
Our soccer culture has a very long way to go before we are relevant on the world scene. T.V. revenues, and other predominant competing sports who lure soccer talent away, continue to prevent the USA from soccer greatness. I hope I'm still alive when we become material on the world stage. I'm not keeping my hopes up.
Peace.
If the metrics you reference were that material, the USA would blow everyone away every year. We don't. Much smaller countries like Germany, Italy, Brazil, etc. wipe the floor with us. I LOVE that you are a real soccer fan. Seriously. We need more of you.
Our soccer culture has a very long way to go before we are relevant on the world scene. T.V. revenues, and other predominant competing sports who lure soccer talent away, continue to prevent the USA from soccer greatness. I hope I'm still alive when we become material on the world stage. I'm not keeping my hopes up.
Peace.
You guys squabbling won't wreck my good mood. After months of thinking we'd never see Dempsey on the pitch again not only is he able to play but scoring goals!
Forgot to mention that economic monolith and abundantly populated Spain. That's gotta be why they've been so great.
Sorry, Julie. I'm done now.
Yes but,
USA has American Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, ect.. ect. The rest of the world fans ultimately finance the development of professional soccer players (it's free if the kids are good enough, then they get professional training). In the USA, parents finance soccer players, unless you live near a MLS team with a youth academey club.
Sorry guys....I just got back to this. I dont have the time right now to explain all the ways you are wrong about this. That I why I suggest you read the book I mentioned.
WestcoastCornhusker2......I live in Europe and you couldn't be more wrong about how players get developed here. (It is not free,....far from it) I coach part time at a local football academy. Also, Europe and the rest of the world play sports like Basketball, Hockey, Cricket, Rugby, Tennis.,,,,etc etc.
Bresmer......Spain is your example........Really? 47 million people, 1.4 trillion GDP, the most successful club teams in the history of the game, constant world cup and euro cup participation over decades, home of one of the top leagues in Europe ......birthplace of Tiki Taka.....and you are trying to conflate them with the likes of Honduras or other teams in CONCACAF? Really? Or did you forget the subject we were discussing?
Read the book.....Soccernomics......Author is a Dutchman, Simon Kuper.(and that is a huge hint at how Spain took their embarrassing past filled with failures and turned it into gold.)
WestcoastCornhusker2......I live in Europe and you couldn't be more wrong about how players get developed here. (It is not free,....far from it) I coach part time at a local football academy. Also, Europe and the rest of the world play sports like Basketball, Hockey, Cricket, Rugby, Tennis.,,,,etc etc.
Bresmer......Spain is your example........Really? 47 million people, 1.4 trillion GDP, the most successful club teams in the history of the game, constant world cup and euro cup participation over decades, home of one of the top leagues in Europe ......birthplace of Tiki Taka.....and you are trying to conflate them with the likes of Honduras or other teams in CONCACAF? Really? Or did you forget the subject we were discussing?
Read the book.....Soccernomics......Author is a Dutchman, Simon Kuper.(and that is a huge hint at how Spain took their embarrassing past filled with failures and turned it into gold.)
What you say applies to everyone...except the USA. Our lower tier performance on the world stage just bums me out. No need to get snarky. I appreciate your credentials. A synchronous conversation would be more effective.
I'll take your word for it on the book. Won't make my reading list any time soon.
I'll take your word for it on the book. Won't make my reading list any time soon.
2009 originally but it has had two updates with additional information, most recently 2014.
Bresmer...Sorry for the snark. I get a little uppity about soccer. Maybe more than a little.
What is on your reading list if I might ask?
I agree that the USMNT has historically underperformed relative to the country "soccernomical" potential, but I'm not sure it's fair to say that they should produce score lines like this more often versus teams like Honduras.
I looked at UEFA World Cup qualifiers, which are half done, and through 135 games this cycle the following games have been decided by 5 or more goals (FIFA rankings at time of draw in parentheses):
-Portugal (7) 6-0 Andorra (202)
-Portugal (7) 6-0 Faroe Islands (74)
-Germany (2) 8-0 San Marino (192)
-Czech Rep (20) 6-0 San Marino (192)
-Montenegro (81) 5-0 Kazakhstan (142)
-Romania (8) 5-0 Armenia (89)
-Spain (12) 8-0 Lichtenstein (147)
-Belgium (3) 8-1 Estonia (82)
-Belgium (3) 6-0 Gibraltar (205)
Now, obviously FIFA rankings aren't perfect, but it sure looks like blowouts of this magnitude are reserved to games with wide gulfs in class. The average ranking disparity is 131, with the minimum being 61.
The United States is ranked 30th, and pretty consistently hovers between 20 and 30.
Honduras is ranked 60th, and the other members of the hex are ranked 17th, 17th, 53rd, and 83rd. So even if we hold the US to the same standard as top European teams, only one team in the hex even falls in the range of "European minnows who might be blown out."
If we look back at earlier stages of qualifying, we find one team ranked at least 60 spots below the US- St. Vincent and the Grenadines (172)... who the US defeated 6-0 and 6-1 in two meetings.
So I'm not questioning your credentials, but the numbers suggest that, at least by this metric, the USMNT is performing to (or even exceeding) expectations, relative to their european peers.
I looked at UEFA World Cup qualifiers, which are half done, and through 135 games this cycle the following games have been decided by 5 or more goals (FIFA rankings at time of draw in parentheses):
-Portugal (7) 6-0 Andorra (202)
-Portugal (7) 6-0 Faroe Islands (74)
-Germany (2) 8-0 San Marino (192)
-Czech Rep (20) 6-0 San Marino (192)
-Montenegro (81) 5-0 Kazakhstan (142)
-Romania (8) 5-0 Armenia (89)
-Spain (12) 8-0 Lichtenstein (147)
-Belgium (3) 8-1 Estonia (82)
-Belgium (3) 6-0 Gibraltar (205)
Now, obviously FIFA rankings aren't perfect, but it sure looks like blowouts of this magnitude are reserved to games with wide gulfs in class. The average ranking disparity is 131, with the minimum being 61.
The United States is ranked 30th, and pretty consistently hovers between 20 and 30.
Honduras is ranked 60th, and the other members of the hex are ranked 17th, 17th, 53rd, and 83rd. So even if we hold the US to the same standard as top European teams, only one team in the hex even falls in the range of "European minnows who might be blown out."
If we look back at earlier stages of qualifying, we find one team ranked at least 60 spots below the US- St. Vincent and the Grenadines (172)... who the US defeated 6-0 and 6-1 in two meetings.
So I'm not questioning your credentials, but the numbers suggest that, at least by this metric, the USMNT is performing to (or even exceeding) expectations, relative to their european peers.
Really good stuff, Enrozes. Lots and lots to unpack here.
You are right, the rankings aren't perfect....in fact they are total garbage. Being college football fans we know a thing or two about the weaknesses in rankings systems. FIFA's are worse. One quick point is that the previous World Cup weighs heavily on the rankings. Can you imagine Nebraska's CFP ranking being measured with the team's performance over a single month that was played 2-3 years ago? World football also has, believe it or not, LESS of a chance for teams from different regions to meet in an actual tournament.(non-friendly) How can we compare say Bolivia, Denmark and China if they never meet or play similar teams at any regular interval? And meaningless "friendlies" factor into the rankings as well even though many are trumped up tryouts for fringe players, marketing opportunities, involve uninterested or tired players and sometimes include next to zero team preparation. Further lunacy is that they use the rankings which essentially are no more than a glorified advertisement for Coca-Cola to help determine seeding in major tournaments. I could go on...but it gets maddening.
Some of the results you listed must be taken with a giant grain of salt. For example Belgium v Gibralter looks bad but really could have been worse. I firmly believe that if Belgium needed to score 15 goals in that game they could. They pumped the brakes a bit since they were playing against mostly non-professionals. As you said, many of those results were bigger teams vs minnows (tiny nation with at most semi-pro players) USA vs Honduras is lopsided but not near those levels of imbalance. A 6-0 advantage to the USA is a bit extreme but easy wins against a team like Honduras at home should be the norm with a pretty low amount of strange results (heavy US wins or a calamitous tie/loss) ever taking place. NOTE: When you see such a bad score in a game with a central American team you can never discount the possibility of corruption due to gambling.
As far as the USA is concerned.....It has every major advantage except for a few really important ones. The list of advantages include giant diverse population, giant economy, huge soccer participation levels, excellent nutrition and food availability, a premium on sports science and data gathering/application, quality healthcare is available (for the time being....lol...current events political jokes are too easy these days) top notch sports facilities ( I am sure my old high school has a better weights and training room that the club team I support)
What is the USA lacking?
The first is History. The MLS started in 1996 after many leagues crashed out in previous decades. This makes the US a relative newcomer to world football. The team I support started in 1926. Juventus was established in 1897. Notts County.....1862. The US lacks the knowledge, culture and nuance that a century of football participation provides. In 1990 the US sent its lambs to the slaughter in Italy with a team made up of college soccer standouts that played matches against seasoned European professionals. In 1994 the US hosted and scraped up any and every pro it could find from any obscure league. 2018 could be the first time the US plays in a World Cup with the majority of players who started as professionals in their teenage years.
As the US has largely solved the player pool problem it still is light years behind in coaching expertise for all of the same reasons listed above. Outsourcing coaches from more experienced countries has been a mixed bag on the national team / MLS level and is next to non existent at the college/high school/ youth club level. Major weakness.
A more recent weakness is America's physical proximity to the western European style of play that has benefited Spain, been adopted and transformed in Germany and more recently propelled Portugal. The proliferation of this football knowledge is slow to spread throughout the world and by the time it reaches enough people in the US or China....it will be obsolete.
I will stop there before this becomes a book rather than a message board post. These are some of the reasons that the US men seemingly underachieve despite huge advantages. To measure the truth of this just look at the US Women. They keep all of the advantages and remove the lack of history disadvantage since they are actually ahead of most of the world in terms of footballing development in the women's game. You see the results we get when that is the case.
It will be interesting to see the US tonight vs Panama. Panama is a tough place to play. They do not fear the US and will attack. Their crowd will play a role. If I had to guess I would say it will be a tie. But if I was good at predicting single game scores I would be rich......I am not.
You are right, the rankings aren't perfect....in fact they are total garbage. Being college football fans we know a thing or two about the weaknesses in rankings systems. FIFA's are worse. One quick point is that the previous World Cup weighs heavily on the rankings. Can you imagine Nebraska's CFP ranking being measured with the team's performance over a single month that was played 2-3 years ago? World football also has, believe it or not, LESS of a chance for teams from different regions to meet in an actual tournament.(non-friendly) How can we compare say Bolivia, Denmark and China if they never meet or play similar teams at any regular interval? And meaningless "friendlies" factor into the rankings as well even though many are trumped up tryouts for fringe players, marketing opportunities, involve uninterested or tired players and sometimes include next to zero team preparation. Further lunacy is that they use the rankings which essentially are no more than a glorified advertisement for Coca-Cola to help determine seeding in major tournaments. I could go on...but it gets maddening.
Some of the results you listed must be taken with a giant grain of salt. For example Belgium v Gibralter looks bad but really could have been worse. I firmly believe that if Belgium needed to score 15 goals in that game they could. They pumped the brakes a bit since they were playing against mostly non-professionals. As you said, many of those results were bigger teams vs minnows (tiny nation with at most semi-pro players) USA vs Honduras is lopsided but not near those levels of imbalance. A 6-0 advantage to the USA is a bit extreme but easy wins against a team like Honduras at home should be the norm with a pretty low amount of strange results (heavy US wins or a calamitous tie/loss) ever taking place. NOTE: When you see such a bad score in a game with a central American team you can never discount the possibility of corruption due to gambling.
As far as the USA is concerned.....It has every major advantage except for a few really important ones. The list of advantages include giant diverse population, giant economy, huge soccer participation levels, excellent nutrition and food availability, a premium on sports science and data gathering/application, quality healthcare is available (for the time being....lol...current events political jokes are too easy these days) top notch sports facilities ( I am sure my old high school has a better weights and training room that the club team I support)
What is the USA lacking?
The first is History. The MLS started in 1996 after many leagues crashed out in previous decades. This makes the US a relative newcomer to world football. The team I support started in 1926. Juventus was established in 1897. Notts County.....1862. The US lacks the knowledge, culture and nuance that a century of football participation provides. In 1990 the US sent its lambs to the slaughter in Italy with a team made up of college soccer standouts that played matches against seasoned European professionals. In 1994 the US hosted and scraped up any and every pro it could find from any obscure league. 2018 could be the first time the US plays in a World Cup with the majority of players who started as professionals in their teenage years.
As the US has largely solved the player pool problem it still is light years behind in coaching expertise for all of the same reasons listed above. Outsourcing coaches from more experienced countries has been a mixed bag on the national team / MLS level and is next to non existent at the college/high school/ youth club level. Major weakness.
A more recent weakness is America's physical proximity to the western European style of play that has benefited Spain, been adopted and transformed in Germany and more recently propelled Portugal. The proliferation of this football knowledge is slow to spread throughout the world and by the time it reaches enough people in the US or China....it will be obsolete.
I will stop there before this becomes a book rather than a message board post. These are some of the reasons that the US men seemingly underachieve despite huge advantages. To measure the truth of this just look at the US Women. They keep all of the advantages and remove the lack of history disadvantage since they are actually ahead of most of the world in terms of footballing development in the women's game. You see the results we get when that is the case.
It will be interesting to see the US tonight vs Panama. Panama is a tough place to play. They do not fear the US and will attack. Their crowd will play a role. If I had to guess I would say it will be a tie. But if I was good at predicting single game scores I would be rich......I am not.
I have to say that I'm impressed that there hasn't been (yet) one "soccer is so boring, who cares" comment. Winking
Tonight will certainly be an interesting game - and hopefully, a tie or victory.
Has Bruce turned the team around? What will the line up look like with Jones available to run over people (sorry, not a big Jones fan)? How long can Altidore stay healthy?
Speaking of injuries, good news that Lletget's injury wasn't as serious as it originally looked. I wish Morris was healthy but hopefully he'll be available Friday night for the Sounders.
I'm also excited about the future for our USMNT. I attended 2 games in KC under the Jurgen regime and vowed to never waste my money again while he was coaching. Now I'm looking forward to a revitalized team.
Tonight will certainly be an interesting game - and hopefully, a tie or victory.
Has Bruce turned the team around? What will the line up look like with Jones available to run over people (sorry, not a big Jones fan)? How long can Altidore stay healthy?
Speaking of injuries, good news that Lletget's injury wasn't as serious as it originally looked. I wish Morris was healthy but hopefully he'll be available Friday night for the Sounders.
I'm also excited about the future for our USMNT. I attended 2 games in KC under the Jurgen regime and vowed to never waste my money again while he was coaching. Now I'm looking forward to a revitalized team.
Interesting PAOK, I am learning a lot about soccer myself, my son loves it. I played football and baseball mostly myself. Despite my ignorance, my son age 11, has been playing up in age group, over a year in age with US Developement Academy games. You would be surprised how many youth coaches immigrated from countries like Mexico, Brazil, a lot Eastern European countries too. I'm sure the passion and professional money just doesn't match the rest of the world, especially europe, but it is changing. The MLS is rapidly getting bigger, every immigrant loves football. I wish there was a way to invest in the MLS, in 20 years I think it will be much bigger.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I'm aware of the deficiencies of the FIFA rankings, but I needed some metric and they were most available. I think the point that really lopsided results are mostly limited to lopsided matchups stands.
You're definitely right about the historical disadvantages the US men face, and with that come disadvantages in soccer infrastructure. Hopefully it's just a matter of time until we catch up in that regard. Certainly all the economic ingredients are there.
I look for a win tonight. They won there 4 years ago without a full A-team against a panama team with everything to play for. It's always hard to win on the road in Central America, but the gulf in class is wide and I expect them to show it.
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Outsiders (William Thorndike)
The Advantage (Patrick Lencioni)
Drive (Daniel Pink)
Imagine (Jonah Lehrer)
Secrets of the Sommeliers (Rajat Parr)
Getting Naked (Patrick Lencioni)
The Ultimate Question 2.0 (Fred Reichheld)
Raving Fans (Ken Blanchard)
Delivering Happiness (Tony Hsieh)
The Life & Legend of Frontier Marshall Bass Reeves (Art Burton)
Darn - that was short lived. Interesting to see the Jaime Penedo is still around - I lost track of him when he left Galaxy.
4pts from the 2 games was good enough to get us back in the mix.
Looking ahead to T&T and Mexico.
6pts would be a godsend but probably wont happen.
4pts would be a successful round again.
3pts is the most likely and still acceptable.
2pts is a disappointment and would cause lots of gnashing of teeth.
0-1pts and the players will probably be enjoying the 2018 World Cup from their couches.
We have a missing generation somewhere in the player pool. (sound familiar Husker fans?) Going in to the last WC our most important players were Dempsey, Jones, Altidore, Howard and Bradley. Going in to the next World Cup it will basically be the same guys carrying the team with a hope that Pulisic can add a newcomer spark. Maybe Zardes (injured?) can step up.....but having the core of the team be unchanged with two grandpas (Jones and Dempsey) is a huge issue. It would not be if they were players like Xavi Alonso and Zinedine Zidane.....but they are not. My point is that we are trying to upgrade our aging team and our best chance is an inexperienced prodigy. (Pulisic) Where are the stud 22-24 year olds?
We will obviously qualify.......FIFA will help us if there is any doubt. They want American televisions tuned to the WC (the sponsors want that badly)......but I don't expect much of a run in the 2018 tounament unless I see some of the guys in their early 20s start to take over the team in the next 12 months.
Looking ahead to T&T and Mexico.
6pts would be a godsend but probably wont happen.
4pts would be a successful round again.
3pts is the most likely and still acceptable.
2pts is a disappointment and would cause lots of gnashing of teeth.
0-1pts and the players will probably be enjoying the 2018 World Cup from their couches.
We have a missing generation somewhere in the player pool. (sound familiar Husker fans?) Going in to the last WC our most important players were Dempsey, Jones, Altidore, Howard and Bradley. Going in to the next World Cup it will basically be the same guys carrying the team with a hope that Pulisic can add a newcomer spark. Maybe Zardes (injured?) can step up.....but having the core of the team be unchanged with two grandpas (Jones and Dempsey) is a huge issue. It would not be if they were players like Xavi Alonso and Zinedine Zidane.....but they are not. My point is that we are trying to upgrade our aging team and our best chance is an inexperienced prodigy. (Pulisic) Where are the stud 22-24 year olds?
We will obviously qualify.......FIFA will help us if there is any doubt. They want American televisions tuned to the WC (the sponsors want that badly)......but I don't expect much of a run in the 2018 tounament unless I see some of the guys in their early 20s start to take over the team in the next 12 months.
I knew men's and women's basketball was totally in the toilet and Spring football isn't that exciting, but how bad is it that the most popular Husker message board has a lengthy soccer discussion. Maybe we can add another thread rating the best minivans.
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I also find it interesting no American MLS club would take a chance on Pulisic but a top German club is and he is on their first team and starting a lot.
See my previous message: " I have to say that I'm impressed that there hasn't been (yet) one "soccer is so boring, who cares" comment. Winking"
Injured, yes......but if they were not injured are they ready to take over the heavy lifting for the team from the aging Dempsey, Jones and Howard? All 3 have not been in the team consistently at all due to injuries, managers decisions and in the case of Yedlin, to allow him to complete a transfer and get settled. Jurgen Klinsmann talked all about player development but actually did very little besides attracting every German-American to the pool. I would call him the German Bo Pelini but it would be unfair because Jurgen actually has had a gigantically successful career outside of his time with the US. Bruce Arena finds himself down in qualifying and with little time to fix that problem and develop new talent. The US will need some club teams to do this for them.
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