I put zero weight on such rankings. But the school is good and getting better. Florida cares about public higher education, unlike some other state I can think of.
Pac12 dissolution discussion
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JDS, I like Florida St. but I the state of Florida is saturated with D1 schools now. I don’t know if any of the big 3 down there are going to regain what they had under Bowden/Spurrier/Davis. UCF, South Florida, and out of state programs seem to have taken enough players to hurt their depth charts.
Going to be interesting who the selection committee’s take. ( if anyone).
Also going to be interesting to see if this thing takes on a life of its own.
How far is Fla. St from getting AAU status?
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That’s great that you personally put no weight into such rankings, but many others, including the B1G who’ve had discussions with fsu, certainly do
Wel agree that FL def cares about public higher education
I would be shocked if FSU ever returned to the Bobby dynasty years of 87-01 with 14 straight top 5 finishes
Way too many variables in todays game and a lot of competition
Big 3 is an interesting dynamic - UF doesn’t prioritize football like bama / Georgia, fsu is short on cash, and Miami is a combo of the 2
UCF is unfortunately 20 years late to the party - though w the talent down there they can be a consistent top 25 program
Re AAU, I’ve heard 5-10 years, with somewhere in between being the most likely number (figure by 2030)
People are gradually figuring out how bad U.S. News's methodology is. It is stupid, for instance, to put weight on surveys of "reputation" when nine-tenths of the raters know nothing about the school except its US News ranking.
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By that methodology, it’s meaningless then right?
A top 5 of Michigan, uva, Cal, unc and UF isn’t legit?
While not the end all be all, the ranking is legit and they have aspirations for an eventual top 15 ranking
There’s ways to increase it, and FSU has figured that out, while increasing their academic ranking across the board and becoming the co-flagship in the state along with UF
Additionally, They’re on the way to achieving AAU status and have been actively been talking membership w the B1G
Your sentence "There's ways to increase it" gives it away -- a clever institution can manipulate its rating through the right strategies. Those strategies don't make the school better; they just make its rating better. And, by the way, UF is a fine school but I question whether it really should be considered in the top 5; you didn't name UCLA and any reasonable person would agree it's a much better school with much better applicants trying to get in.
Of course there’s ways to increase it, there’s ways to increase anything, and it just depends what the goal of the institution is.
The goal Florida state has and continues to be increasing their academic profile, and theyre doing it in many different ways
In addition to the news, US news and world report.
They’ll have AAU status within 7 to 10 years, and are quickly becoming a top public school in the country.
Of course, UCLA the top five, I was merely going on the US news and world rankings and not on any other rankings systems as this is what your erroneous comment focused on
As I said, there are many different ranking services, but to dismiss the US news and world report one because it does not fit your narrative, is not only wrong, but didn’t ignorant as well.
Additionally, to discount to UF is foolhardy. The school is a powerhouse, and has been for a long time.
I don’t like them athletically, but I respect the hell out of them academically - and dismissing them is beyond laughable.
If USNWR says UF is better than UCLA, it's crazy. BTW, one easy way to game the undergraduate rankings is to put more weight in admissions on SAT scores. That's all you have to do. Your school won't be better; it will just put less emphasis on grades with the same overall quality of students. The same is true of law schools and the LSAT. That's because the USNWR ranking system cares most about scores on standardized tests -- not because they're especially good, but because they're easy to use. In addition, if you look at the raw score of say, the #30 school and the #50 school, you'll see only a slight difference that is more statistical noise than anything real.
As for Florida State, I have no doubt the institution is becoming better. Unlike New Jersey, Florida cares about having excellent public higher education for its young people. Unlike New Jersey, Florida cares about keeping young people in the state. Tuition at the Florida public universities is far lower than at Rutgers, and there are special incentive programs for Florida students to stay in the state. My only disagreement with you is reliance on the flawed USNWR system.
BTW, I can't imagine *any* ranking system with any validity. What kids want and need from a school varies tremendously, just as kids vary. These ranking systems are just a way to attract eyeballs.
UCLA was actually # 2 behind Cal, while UNC is 6 behind UF.
Again, though there are ways to game the system to get additional points, the rankings, by and large, are fairly representative of each school's academic place in the pecking order
Ranking systems can certainly be subjective, depending on which way you look at it. However, there's a reason they exist. There's a reason why Princeton is top 5 in the world, why UVA is top 5 in publics, etc.
To discount rankings, of a reputable ranking service, b/c they put more weight on SAT scores (which go a long way to determining who gets into which schools to begin with) is at best, extremely biased
We're not talking about an obscure ranking system, the USNRW is pretty well known. Honestly, I wish NJ would follow this model and do this with Rutgers, to increase their profile
We're not going to agree on this and that's fine. But so you know. . .all a school has to do is to decrease the weight it puts on grades and increases the emphasis it puts on SAT (or LSAT). That doesn't make the school better; it just makes the U.S. News ranking better.
waitlisting more make selection lower as well
lots of way to game it
you are correct
Farce is a stretch.
The rankings are certainly not perfect, but they do give a guideline of approximately where each school stands
Cal being number one, regardless of how they game the system is not out of the realm of reality. They wouldn’t be number 30 if they did something differently, and West Virginia wouldn’t be in the top 10 either.
Yeah, I think we agree that the rankings of certainly not perfect, but they also give a pretty good outline were each school stands. As I just mentioned, Cal, being number one because they game the system, a certain way is one thing, however, if another school game did another way, car would not be number 30 and West Virginia will not be in the top 10.
UCLA and Cal are tied for #1 public university in the latest USN&WR rankings, no? There are 4 other UC schools in the top 10. In other words, 6 of the top ten public universities are in the U of California system. Hard to believe.
I spent 8yrs as an adjunct professor in RU's graduate school of business teaching a specialized class and know many academics as well as wall st hr reps and NO ONE THINKS FSU IS TOP 20 ANYTHING much less state school.
farce
JDS, One other point pertaining to FSU to BIG. If it was all about the combination of academic/athletic and research dollars. Why did Texas opt for the SEC?
Why wouldn’t Florida State?
Congratulations
I’m impressed with your credentials
I’m going by rankings of a reputable service
You’re going by your “experience” - which is nice, but stating your opinion, whir writing in caps lock, doesnt change a thing
Great question
Honestly I have no idea
I ajways though Texas was perfect for the B1G
State school, great academics, strong athletics, etc
In regard to FSU, there’s a lot of history trying to carve their own identity apart from UF
There’s a train of thought that going to the B1G accomplishes the aforementioned goals, along with differentiates them from UF while continuing their acension in academic rankings and continuing to be successful in athletics
Football wise I prefer the SEC, but there’s a lot of other things that go into decisions other than fb rivalries
I thought cal was slightly ahead but I could be mistaken as they’re both right up there
The UC system is the envy of the world. California does attract more than it’s share of nutters (along with Florida), but also attracts many of the world’s biggest brains.
Can we put aside the FSU academics stuff for a few minutes??
I think the musical chair discussion is fascinating. I will say all the posters make great points and have different sources ( RU95-JDS-AIR-retired-Kup-Krup-RUGUY1 ). IMO, the ACC GOR holds for awhile, however, for the discussion, lets assume it's 2030 with the end in sight. What's the end game for the B1G and SEC??? USC and UCLA are going to have west coast partners. When the ACC GOR ends, what happens to those assets? Like RU95 states, the $$ has to make sense. Schools need to pay for themselves, but who really does that other than ND? Does the B1G let the SEC take the best schools, or the opposite? Is bigger better? Can the B1G relegate the SEC to regional status? Will it be 2 top conferences or more. Where do schools like AZ/CO/UT go? AAU state schools, in solid markets with solid athletic history.
I'll make my pics..
WEST - USC/UCLA/WASH/ORE 2 OF CAL/STAN/CU/AZ
MID WEST - MINN/IOWA/NEB/WISC/ILL/NW
MID EAST - MICH/MSU/OSU/PUR/IND/ND ( networks want to see these games )
EAST - -RUT/PSU/MD/UVA/UNC 1 OF FSU/CLEM/GT/MIAMI/CUSE
this keeps many regional rivalries. the PAC schools would rather play one another. the same for most of B1G, they don't care about playing us or MD, nor do I care about playing Minn or Pur or Ill etc. I'd rather play east coast teams like PSU/MD/UVA/UNC with a sprinkle of the rest of the B1G.
Does the $$ justify? Does the coast to coast dominance justify? best of academics/athletics
Money wise, 20 max makes sense with Notre Dame.
Does that mean 3 west coast schools as well? Or do we plunder the ACC?
I think >=24 only happens if Endgame is SEC vs BIG10 as the National Championship and relegating other conferences to mediocrity.
With the Big12 getting the best of the rest, people would complain if they got shut out..... so I can't see 2 mega conferences and hope 20 is the max..
This is a fun prediction. I'd just add that having Pitt as the last Eastern school would be a better option than the others. Pitt is a natural Big 10 fit.
I go back and forth with conference size
20 or 24 I believe would be the magic #, but would lean towards 24
I don't follow the other conferences nearly as much, so with the ACC, I think the following when it's all said and done:
B1G - FSU, UNC, UVA, GT,
SEC - Clemson, NC State, VT
Wildcards - Pitt, Duke, Miami
Nada = Wake, BC, Cuse
You would think if the BIG and SEC take that many teams. The three remaining conferences would merge and become a national brand too. A national conference with regional rivals to cut down on travel.
I think they somehow all need to work together to a certain extent in order to make this whole thing work, and to maximize revenues and profits. There are a lot of variables going on, in regard to travel and rivalries amongst other things, and I think that there’s a big enough piece of the pie for everyone to get if they can simply put their minds together and work together. It won’t be for the greater good of the game, but ultimately benefit us all and make the game that we all love so much continue to thrive.
I agree. I listen to Rick Neuheisal on xm. That’s what he preaches. If all the schools worked together they could put a package together that would rival the NFL.
With plenty of money for everyone.
They would need a commissioner who would look out for everyone. He swears Sanke from the SEC could be the guy, to move up and oversee the process.
We're already seeing the B1G and SEC working together to a certain extent with the Michigan-Texas game in 2024
I hope that is a prelude of things to come as working together will produce greater results long term IMO
A couple of points I'll make in regards to the discussion on Research Funding, US News Rankings, CIC importance and AAU status.
US News Rankings (which one)
If one wants to address which schools are noted for their Research Prowess the 2 US News Magazines you should refer to are US News "Americas Best Graduate Schools". The strength of a Universities Graduate Programs are the foundation/basis that they have the resources/expertise to attract Research funding in specific areas.
Example, Pitt's Health Professions are all ranked in the Top 20 in the US News Graduate School Ranking and were able to attract $675.4 million in National Institute of Health (NIH) research funding in 2022 which would make Pitt #3 in NIH Funding beating every P-5 and Ivy League School.
The other US News Report relating to a Schools Research Prowess is US News "Global University Ranking" which has its own set of criteria for the Global Rankings. Pitt is ranked #45 in this Global Ranking. Although these rankings are not absolute they are relatively accurate (IMO).
CIC importance is not as important in attracting research funding as some on this board seem to infer.
Each school submits their own individual funding proposals for research funding from the different govt/private
agencies (ex NIH research funding). The ACC has its CIC counterpart called the ACC Academic Consortium which does not significantly help in attracting research dollars.
Florida State would like to become an AAU member University but I'm not sure how many years it will take to be invited into this coveted organization. Florida State currently obtains about $350 million annually in research funding.
Some on the board often refer to US News National Rankings which for the most part are "Undergraduate" rankings and have little to do with attracting research funding aka Notre Dame.
Pittsburgh is fortunate to have 2 AAU Universities in the city which bring in almost $1.7 billion in annual research funding.
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
US News Rankings (which one)
If one wants to address which schools are noted for their Research Prowess the 2 US News Magazines you should refer to are US News "Americas Best Graduate Schools". The strength of a Universities Graduate Programs are the foundation/basis that they have the resources/expertise to attract Research funding in specific areas.
Example, Pitt's Health Professions are all ranked in the Top 20 in the US News Graduate School Ranking and were able to attract $675.4 million in National Institute of Health (NIH) research funding in 2022 which would make Pitt #3 in NIH Funding beating every P-5 and Ivy League School.
The other US News Report relating to a Schools Research Prowess is US News "Global University Ranking" which has its own set of criteria for the Global Rankings. Pitt is ranked #45 in this Global Ranking. Although these rankings are not absolute they are relatively accurate (IMO).
CIC importance is not as important in attracting research funding as some on this board seem to infer.
Each school submits their own individual funding proposals for research funding from the different govt/private
agencies (ex NIH research funding). The ACC has its CIC counterpart called the ACC Academic Consortium which does not significantly help in attracting research dollars.
Florida State would like to become an AAU member University but I'm not sure how many years it will take to be invited into this coveted organization. Florida State currently obtains about $350 million annually in research funding.
Some on the board often refer to US News National Rankings which for the most part are "Undergraduate" rankings and have little to do with attracting research funding aka Notre Dame.
Pittsburgh is fortunate to have 2 AAU Universities in the city which bring in almost $1.7 billion in annual research funding.
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
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With respect to the ACC Conference which is #3 in the P-5 hierarchy I believe that ESPN-ABC/ACC will announce a renegotiated contract with significant financial increases before its current expiration.
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
They will have to get their research funding to increase substantially.
The only AAU school in Florida is UF which gets about $950 million in research funding.
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
@Panthergrowl13 - personally, I'd prefer to play Pitt and Cuse, even UConn then many of the B1G schools. Where would you like to see Pitt in the next 5-10-15 years and where do you think Pitt ends up??
I don’t know that I believe ESPN will open up the ACC contract and give more money at a time they are under pressure from Disney to cut costs, but I am confident that if ESPN did offer to increase the annual payout it would only be in return for a significant extension in the contract and GOR length (as they have done before when the ACC added teams).
It would be interesting to see what schools like FSU would do, when faced with the opportunity to improve their finances over what the current contract would pay over the next 12 years, but in return forego their chance to get out to the B1G or SEC at any time in the next couple of decades.
I agree with you on some of your speculation. A renegotiated deal with an extension of the GOR and a financial excallation clause keeping it closer to #3 in P-5 money during the extended time frame.
I try not to get to involved in these discussions because I'm sure there are internal discussions (Jim Phillips) going on all the time.
If the B1G does want to expand I'm somewhat confident that they will go West to satisfy USC and UCLA.
Also don't think ESPN-ABC really want to undermine their SEC-ACC control. What ESPN-ABC could require the SEC and ACC schedule more competitive games between the conferences to increase TV viewing on its platforms.
Just have to wait and see.
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
They might want to stay, but if the PAC TV rights revenue isn't close to what they would get being a Vitamin , you can bet your sweet Bippy they'd take what the B-12 has to give and become Big 12 members.
Wouldn't be surprised to find out while the Utah President was talking styinh, he knew his AD had a 3rd party talking to someone that was associated with the Big 12 about what that conference would be offering Utah and friends
if they jumped ship.