Penn State - Michigan State dual thread
- Thread starter Tom McAndrew
- Start date
I don’t know if two is enough to keep Sanderson happy
need more learning opportunitiesYes. Levi needs to start letting it fly and stop thinking about mistakes. He’s much better that way. Go have fun and score points. Don’t worry about the outcome. Be the best version of yourself and thing’s will be fine….
Penn State wrestling: Takeaways from the Lions' blowout win over Michigan State
Penn State finished off a sweep of Michigan-based college wrestling teams on Sunday by blasting Michigan State.
My hats off to TB. When Byers said he was a biomedical engineering major I was floored. That is an insanely intense major and he’s doing it while wrestling. On top of that, he was the distinguished scholar athlete of the year in the B1G last year and a 3x Academic All-American according to Byers. That’s a ridiculously impressive feat for TB in that major. Good for him. That kid is going to be a highly successful member of society. I’m impressed. Then you listen to the interview and he just oozes humbleness and appreciation for position he is in. Wow. These are the types of guys Cael looks for.
Just 1 reason why our wrestling program is the BEST in the World. Fact!
Haines will be fine. So will Bartlett. They are wrestling tired, tired, tired. Folks complain they don't have the zip they had last year.....its by design.
TB with a great interview. I hope he gets a shot at a good 165 this year..........other than MM.
MM has two decisions......everything else is bonus. The closest win, 8-5 over Claw.
TB with a great interview. I hope he gets a shot at a good 165 this year..........other than MM.
MM has two decisions......everything else is bonus. The closest win, 8-5 over Claw.
Yes, you are correct. Cael’s got a blueprint. Trust it. The goal is to peak in March, not January. They always look sluggish at some point during the regular season and they are apparently dealing with a virus that several of them have. I would assume the sluggishness that we see annually during the regular season is due to some hard practicing and drilling. That all seems to work itself out by March. I’m not the least bit concerned. This is a really talented, really, really deep team.
Question for the refs out there, who in the world calls stalling on a front headlock with 1 sec left in the period?
Check out my post from Hofstra meet here:
Post in thread 'Penn State - Hofstra dual thread'
https://www.on3.com/boards/threads/penn-state-hofstra-dual-thread.1231646/post-23051020
Today’s broadcast was equally as bad. The announcers were just a tiny bit better but the production crew was much worse. i’m pretty sure they had every wrestler reversed on the graphics and the records of some weren’t even correct when you switched them. look at the meet score at the end of the match. The records are wrong and check out the icon for PSU (hint, it isn’t a nittany lion).
MSU journalism school seems to be equally as bad as PSU’s.
Haines was still in control and not attempting to return him to the mat. This is no different than being in rear-standing position or having legs in while guy is on his feet. the sensitivity to this situation is even higher during OT periods
You are correct, but the point is, it was a bad time to make that call. Byers went nuts on the radio calling the ref out by name saying, “Jaime George, you can’t make that call right now.” It didn’t help that George was late counting one of the MSU wrestlers for holding onto the leg in an attempt to keep top control. People just want consistency within the calls.
BB is not wrestling any differently than last season. Like it or not, this is how he rolls.
Saldate has some head-scratching losses this season, but was R12 last year and is not an easy out. And, yes, clearly he is very strong. Just a very gritty win for Haines.
The thing I don’t get is that I don’t remember another stall call on Haines before that.
He was in a bad position at the edge of the mat and took the OOB stall.
Christmas present from my wife, so we took a roadie up to Sparty. Her first wrestling experience ever, Levi’s match got her going. Nice to share a smile and 
with Byers…
with Byers…He got one earlier in the match. Maybe the first period? Defending off shots without much offense early?
I didn't listen to the student announcers, as I had Ironhead playing. I just listened to them as I watched the Select Matches video I listed above.
Wrestling PBP is tough in general, especially if you are not/were not actively involved in the sport. Color analysis is even more difficult if you don't know wrestling well. In that regard, I sympathize with any students that are trying to learn the broadcasting skills, but don't have much knowledge of wrestling.
That said, these two MSU announcers were brutal. They didn't know the difference between a TD and a reversal. They didn't know the difference between interlocking fingers and locked hands. They didn't know what was being challenged. All of that, and much more (in a bad way), was in evidence during their call of the Haines match.
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I have to stop being lazy and listen to radio feed and watch with volume down.
I agree consistent application is essential - see my post in the Michigan match thread. I thought Jaime was more consistent than Angel on Friday. I’ll watch a replay, but in the moment my Ref-brain was saying here comes a stall call. You better do something.
I actually thought Angel did a good job in Friday. The only questionable calls were the takedowns and he called both OOB so no harm, no foul in my book.
Penn State wrestling: Takeaways from the Lions' blowout win over Michigan State
Penn State finished off a sweep of Michigan-based college wrestling teams on Sunday by blasting Michigan State.www.on3.com
@GregPickel -- I wonder about this (regarding Mesenbrink): "The Penn State wrestler is set to fly up the rankings later this week." From a fan's perspective that makes sense from what we observed Friday and Sunday, but I question how much he'll actually move.
If you go by Intermat, the most recent rankings @ 165 were:
1. Keegan O'Toole (Mizzou)
2. Julian Ramirez (Cornell)
3. David Carr (Iowa St.)
4. Izzak Olejnik (Okla. St.)
5. Dean Hamiti (Wisky)
6. Mikey Caliendo (Iowa)
7. Cameron Amine (Mich.)
8. Peyton Hall (WVU)
9. Mesenbrink
Amine will drop, but I'm not sure if Mesenbrink will move up more than one spot. A day before the most recent rankings, Hall (WVU) defeated Olejnik (Okla. St.). The impact of that match on their respective rankings were: a) Hall moved up from 9th to 8th, and b) Olejnik moved down from 2nd to 4th. Amine was the only person in the top 9 listed above that lost since their most recent ranking (posted 1/16). As such, I'm not sure that a case can be made for moving Mesenbrink ahead of anybody but Amine.
FWIW, Caliendo is the only wrestler listed above Mesenbrink in the top 9 that Mesenbrink is likely to meet during the regular season, when the PSU - Iowa dual takes place. PSU doesn't face Wisconsin this season, and none of the other schools listed are on PSU's OOC schedule. Unless one of the above loses during the regular season (which will likely happen, as O'Toole should face Hall on 1/26, Carr should face Olejnik on 1/27, O'Toole should face Ramirez on 1/28, Carr should face Hall on 2/2, Olejnik should face O'Toole on 2/4, and there may be a few other Big XII competitions on 2/25; their master schedule gives conflicting info for that date) I'd be surprised if Mesenbrink moves above 7, and that's only if he defeats Caliendo in the Iowa dual.
Things may not really get shaken up until the conference tournaments. O'Toole, Carr, Olejnik, and Hall will be in the Big XII tournament. Hamiti, Caliendo, Mesenbrink, and Amine will be in the B1G tournament.
165 was an interesting weight class at the start of the season. Mesenbrink has forced his way into the conversation of who's the best.
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I agree. Haines and BB seem to be wrestling like they are tired. Especially Haines. He looks like he is TIGHT out there. Love to see him not worry about the results and just let it fly and have fun. Dont put unnecessary pressure on yourself. Same as BB at 141. Get your offense going by letting it fly and dont be concerned about the outcome.
Very deep pool of talented guys. I struggle to find a good source of who has wrestled who so far.
I struggle to find who has wrestled who so far this year. O'Toole is undefeated as is MM. Everyone else has a loss and I would expect both O'Toole and David Carr have administered some of those losses. I get the newbies have to earn their way up the rankings and I hate to use the Herbie "eye test". I think Byers mentioned O'Toole beat Amine 6-0 last year at the Tourny. That Amine scored nothing isn't a shock.
I will say this, if MM beats anyone ahead of him, including O'Toole, it isn't an upset. He is a world champ in freestyle and is amazing to watch.
Tom, I would love to hear your thoughts on the controversy surrounding the 157 match?
Having trained in both running and swimming a million years ago and practiced through plenty of events, if they are training through a match, they are just not going to be able to "go" like their mind would like. They think they are doing their very best......the reality is something radically different. This is tough to gage with wrestling. With the stuff I did, the clock doesn't lie. One week you run the mile and you are totally spent and the time sucks. A month later, you can coast to the same time.
March. March. March
1. Keegan O'Toole: as you mentioned, he's undefeated. He hasn't faced any of the top wrestlers. His best win so far is over Edmond Ruth
2. Julian Ramirez: he has 1 loss, to Izzak Olejnik (4-2). The only other top guy he's faced is David Carr, who he defeated 4-3 at the Cliff Keen Invitational
3. David Carr: he has 1 loss, to Julian Ramirez (4-3). He's defeated Dean Hamiti (2-0), Michael Caliendo (16-4), and Cameron Amine (3-1)
4. Izzak Olejnik: he has 1 loss, to Peyton Hall (5-1). He defeated Julian Ramirez (4-2) and Cameron Amine (6-4) at Cliff Keen
5. Dean Hamiti: he has 1 loss, to David Carr (2-0). He's defeated Peyton Hall (12-0).
6. Mikey Caliendo: he has 1 loss, to David Carr (16-4). He hasn't faced any other of the top 165 wrestlers
7. Cameron Amine: he has 4 losses -- Izzak Olejnik (6-4), David Carr (3-1), Caleb Fish (6-4), and Mesenbrink (11-1). Olejnik, Carr, and Mesenbrink are the only top guys he's faced
8. Peyton Hall: he has 3 losses -- Garrett Thompson (Ohio) (8-5), Gaetano Console (Duke) (pin @ 1:19), Dean Hamiti (12-0). The only other top guy he's faced is Izzak Olejnik, who he beat, 5-1
9. Mitchell Mesenbrink: he's undefeated. Amine is the only top guy that's he's faced, and he beat him 11-1
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The locked hands? Or the reversal? Both? Or something else?
The locked hands I can't give a definitive analysis of, as the replay shown on BTN+ didn't show whether or not Haines had locked his hands. The assistant ref first signaled it, then the head ref signaled it, and awarded the points at the buzzer. Haines seemed stunned at the call and asked the coaches to throw the brick. They did, and per Byers, they seemed quite confident that there was not locked hands. I'd have to see video from an angle that BTN+ didn't show to decide whether the call should have been overturned, which it was.
The reversal took place before the clock got to zero, so it's a good call. I thought Levi had it a few seconds before it was awarded, but the ref was probably looking to see if Saldate rolled through. Saldate had a hold of a knee (going from memory; I think that's what it was), but Levi breaking that hold was not a requirement to get the reversal.
I hope that answers your question. If not, let me know.
I was asking about the match in general, thought the refs did the one thing they are not supposed to do, be noticed, Levi maybe had his hands clasped while standing, looked like he had his wrist locked when he returned Saldate to the ground, not sure if that is the rule or not (or if my interpretation is correct on the events), the stalling call was another controversial call, odd to call it with a second left when both wrestlers not doing much, Thank you for you time and expertise!
Thanks for the research, as always. I look at this and wonder why MM would not be #2 or #3. The transitive property ( I sucked at math ) doesn't hold well for sports, but #3 beat CA, 3-1. #4 beat CA 6-4, #2 lost to #4. These guys are established studs and are clearly pretty close when it comes to overall talent. Great wrestlers get beat once in a while. Sure you can dominate a guy and still only win 6-4. In a tourney situation, there may not be the motivation to invest energy rolling up points.......control the match and move on.
What the world witnessed Friday night was a guy who is on a completely different level than CA. This isn't a Washington over Starocci, big move seals the win situation. One wouldn't expect the next meeting to be better for CA. I'm not knocking CA..........he is an established stud with an established style which has worked well for him. MM is just on another level right now
Refs would prefer not to be noticed. But matches don't always play out in ways that allow that to take place. Most of the time a ref is noticed it's because they're making the best call they can in a tough situation. The ref isn't trying to be noticed -- he/she is simply doing what they're supposed to be doing, and all the coaches, teammates, and fans, who see everything from the perspective of what they want, disagree or find fault with the ref, even if the refs are usually right, and the coaches, teammates, and fans are usually wrong.
Stepping off my soap box, let me address the refs in the Haines match. Locked hands is somewhat of a PITA. Every single dual I ref, there are coaches and fans calling for locked hands pretty much every time a wrestler is returned to the mat, etc. It gets pretty annoying, especially since in high school rules (and MS and youth), a wrestler is given reaction time (i.e., they can have locked hands when they hit the mat, and are given a second or so to unlock them). In college, the rules are a little different, in that there is no allowance for reaction time. (Which is why Matt Brown won his national title, when PSU's coaches threw the brick.) Other ways in which locked hands are a PITA include: 1) if you're working a 2-on-1, and your hands end up hitting each other, is that locked hands? (coaches scream for it; it's not generally called), 2) a wrestler takes down an opponent, and the opponent tries to kick free or jackrabbit away, and the offensive wrestler grabs the legs. If they lock their hands together, it should be called locked hands, but that often takes place underneath the shins, and is impossible to see for a ref, 3) most of the situations where it occurs are when an offensive wrestler is on top and has taken down an opponent or returned them to the mat, and the lock is across the chest which is either on the mat or just above the mat. (That was the situation in the Haines match.) Refs get pretty good at anticipating when or where locked hands occur, and will bend down, lean over, etc. to look for it. (You CAN NOT call it just because you think it's taking place. You have to visually see it to call it.) In the Haines match, I don't believe the refs were trying to make themselves noticed with the locked hands call. The assistant ref, who often has a better view of it than the head ref in many cases, is the one that first signaled locked hands in the Haines match. And once you signal it, you're supposed to hold that signal (as he did) until the technical violation is called, or the period ends and you mention it to the center ref. PSU challenged the call, and apparently (we didn't see it on the BTN+ telecast), there was a camera angle that showed that Haines did not commit locked hands in the situation, so the call was overturned.
The stalling call was legit. First off, the refs are not supposed to be looking at the clock (well, at least the center ref). Their primary focus is on the the match in front of them. The AR is supposed to check the clock and either count down the last 5 seconds, or call out time when the clock hits 0:00, so that the center ref can remain totally focused on the wrestlers. @truth-and-reason gave a good explanation of the stall call. It was legitimate. In high school wrestling, the rules have not been changed to mandate mandatory stall calls anywhere near the way they have in college. Some people like the college changes, as it forces more stall warnings and calls, but there is a downside to it. In high school, I'm not making the call against Haines in that situation, but per college rules I would have to when the ref called it. You're not supposed to factor in anything about the time left in a period or the match when you make a stall warning or a stall call. And as I indicated above, the center ref isn't really supposed to even look at the clock. So basically, the ref made the correct call in this situation. Yet somewhat that's making him noticed? Also, Byers said at the time something along the lines of "oh no, Jamie George you can't make that call at that time." Ironhead if an excellent PBP announcer, and I chat with him at pretty much every PSU wrestling match I attend (which is very few, unfortunately). However, speaking from a ref's perspective, one of his biggest shortcomings as a PBP announcer is when he opines about what a ref should do, or whether or not they were correct in a call, or didn't call something when they should have, etc. In those instances, he usually sounds almost 100% like a fan, and not somebody that's giving an objective analysis of the situation. Again, I like Jeff, but that's one area of his PBP that I would modify if I could. In short, it's best to not go by what he says regarding the actions of refs in PSU matches.
This! A ref’s job is to call the match/game/event as it happens. The focus should be on if a foul/penalty/etc. occurred, not how much time was left on the clock.
If Jamie George can’t make the stall call at that time, then he can’t make the reversal call at the time it happened either.
