This is the twilight zone.
Last I heard you were looking up the verse I provided. I’m not providing it again because you obviously seem to not have the answer and are just stalling at this point.
Playing off Lent thread, what religion are you?
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Last I heard you were looking up the verse I provided. I’m not providing it again because you obviously seem to not have the answer and are just stalling at this point.
Yeah some people even got strangled and burned at the stake for translating and printing the Bible in English.
Wonder why a religion would do that?!
You claim to be on the spectrum and demand accommodation from everyone, yet you’re the one throwing insults and refusing to engage the simplest, most direct logic question possible. Kinda hard to expound or go further when you do that lol.
That’s not spectrum needs. That’s being an *** wrapped in a victim card.
This thread is becoming an excellent example of one of the biggest reasons that I lost my faith
I notice that you haven’t denied that you are a doofus with no critical thinking skills.
That’s good— Acceptance is the first step. Eleven more steps to go for you…
By the way, here are two old jokes about Aspergers…
I’m not an ***. I have Aspergers.
OR: I’m not just an ***. I also have Aspergers.
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That’s great. I take no position on “western culture”. I just like to hear different viewpoints. Thank you for yours.
So, is this like I answer your question first then you answer mine? To live up to my end. I must say if it is true then obviously I will go to hell. I will not pretend as if that thought does not scare me, and I will also not act like the typical liberal atheist by insulting people of faith. For the most part, all the people of faith I know are honorable hard working people that I fit right in with.
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If we can accept the idea of a robust, competitive Mississippi State University Athletics Department, then we could also think similarly about your Dad. **
If not the reason I lost it (not sure I ever really had it if I honestly look back), for sure a reason to not wade back in. Not that I’d dip my toes in anyway to tell the truth. So I probably shouldn’t put the burden of driving me away on anyone. But all the arguments do look a lot silly and absurd.
After reading your last few replies, I’m seriously starting to consider Calvinism. Not because of the theology- but because if God sovereignly ordained someone as smug, condescending, and dodgy as you to exist, then maybe double predestination isn’t such a bad idea after all.I notice that you haven’t denied that you are a doofus with no critical thinking skills.
That’s good— Acceptance is the first step. Eleven more steps to go for you…
By the way, here are two old jokes about Aspergers…
I’m not an ***. I have Aspergers.
OR: I’m not just an ***. I also have Aspergers.
This is good stuff! Hope this thread doesn't get locked.
Here's some questions I'd like to the Pack to weigh in on:
How old is the earth and how long have humans been walking around on it?
Has every human being that ever lived really had an opportunity to know Christ in order to accept or reject him?
If God is Love and that love unconditional, why create anyone predestined to be tortured for eternity?
So many more questions, but let's stick with those.
Here's some questions I'd like to the Pack to weigh in on:
How old is the earth and how long have humans been walking around on it?
Has every human being that ever lived really had an opportunity to know Christ in order to accept or reject him?
If God is Love and that love unconditional, why create anyone predestined to be tortured for eternity?
So many more questions, but let's stick with those.
4.5 billion years or so. Things got interesting 4 million or so years ago but our species is roughly 300,000 years old. We’ve come a long way.
No
Irrelevant question for me.
Have you all ever considered that many of the various Christian denominations aren’t man’s corruption of God’s plan, but in fact part of His plan and His mercy to save more souls? I’m sure some of these mild and moderate issues will prove out that some had it right here. Others had it right there. Some didn’t matter at all. And nobody had it 100% perfect in the end.
But I can promise you. On a lot of these issues, there really are people who couldn’t get past some of them because of pride, human frailty, etc. “just can’t follow this path if it means giving up alcohol.” Or “I just can’t follow this path if it means going to church with a bunch of people who drink alcohol.” Or “I just can’t follow this path if it means giving up hundreds of years of church history and practice.” Or “I just can’t follow this path if it means being stuck in an ultra traditional church service that I can’t resonate with or understand.”
Maybe. Just maybe. God saw our human pride, arrogance, and weakness, eliminated some stumbling blocks in His abundant grace. And made a way for many more of us to find our way to the Cross and the only One in Whom salvation is found.
But I can promise you. On a lot of these issues, there really are people who couldn’t get past some of them because of pride, human frailty, etc. “just can’t follow this path if it means giving up alcohol.” Or “I just can’t follow this path if it means going to church with a bunch of people who drink alcohol.” Or “I just can’t follow this path if it means giving up hundreds of years of church history and practice.” Or “I just can’t follow this path if it means being stuck in an ultra traditional church service that I can’t resonate with or understand.”
Maybe. Just maybe. God saw our human pride, arrogance, and weakness, eliminated some stumbling blocks in His abundant grace. And made a way for many more of us to find our way to the Cross and the only One in Whom salvation is found.
Respectfully, 1 Timothy 4:3 and the pre- and post- text is absolutely clear (and fitting this time of year) that the first church wasn’t “Catholic.”
Suppose Adam & Eve is true for one second. When you picture them, do you imagine infants or fully formed adults? If it’s the latter, who’s to say God didn’t create an adult earth, ie, one that appears to be much older than it is?
We have seriously reached the evolution isn’t real part of the argument?
I’m not saying that’s true, but that’s an argument I’ve heard that id never considered.
Me too.
No.
Catholics believe their souls were in limbo before Jesus died. When He died, He was able to release the just to Heaven.
The fossil record and observable universe?
Why would a higher power do that though? And if they did, why our ability to make other scientific advancements?
I’m respectful of people of faith. I’ll remove my hat and bow my head to let them pray in comfort. Try to be cognizant of Islamic fasts and Jewish holy days and what have you. But the out right washing away of knowledge our species has achieved with “what if a god did it and we are just being fooled” is just lazy and dumb to be frank.
Adam and Eve is a story by people thousands of years ago trying to answer big questions about how we got here and why we are here.
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I respect your opinion. I wonder if you’re humble enough to acknowledge that speculation as to the origin of the universe is just that. We don’t have a control universe by which to compare ours. So any definitive statements about how exactly everything came from nothing are either faith based or comforting fantasies dressed up as science.
Science is science. Carbon dating and the fossil record are as real as gravity.
listen. I don’t believe in god. But limiting god to being as simple as the Bible says he does creation is comical. I always believed that genesis was told in a way that people could understand it. If the Bible talked about single cell organisms and evolution no one would understand it. As it stands, the 7 days tells a pretty beautiful story of how evolution happened. And Adam and Eve are the stand in for man in general. The apple is when mankind woke up from being animals and innocent and chose to do something wrong.
like I said, I always believed god was way more powerful than our simple brains could understand. Much like I would tell a story to my girls when they were younger I would dumb it down to the nth degree. I always believed we were never meant to understand god, which is why it makes me laugh how confident people are that think they have it all figured out
if god does exists that means he made this entire universe and the rules that exist within it. I don’t understand why people act like those rules aren’t real and don’t exist.
Ah, so you believe the Catholic church is some type of demonic off shoot? Gotcha.
No sense further discussing this.
I grew up southern Baptist and remember distinctly being told Catholics were going to hell. And then I converted to Catholicism so maybe they were right
I've often thought that, at minimum, science points toward an intelligent designer. The idea that we can evolve species has always been silly to me. When in doubt, just say "millions of years'.
I think a lot of people have been told this over the years. That's really why my original choices in this thread were mainly Christian - wanted a discuss more central to that, rather than Islam, Judaism, etc.
I know certain churches that do MISSION TRIPS TO CATHOLIC AREAS. Let that sink in.
The whole 'uber-free-to-worship-however-I-want' sector of Christianity is unraveling, in my opinion. And I'm not talking in the vein of American freedom of religion, of course we have that freedom. I'm talking about trying to find the truest truth, within the Christian faith - which I do happen to believe is true, along with many others here obviously.
God is SO much bigger than we can comprehend. I don’t want to come off like I have it all figured out— so please don’t think that. I know what our faith says on some of the hot topics in this thread. I know I feel comfortable in what our faith teaches. But it reminds me of the scene in Pistol Pete when his Dad is showing them how much he knew about basketball by putting a small circle on the ball. God is so much bigger.
I'll grant you the obvious in that we don't have a control universe to compare, but that hardly makes cosmic history a speculation on the same level as a young earth. Actual measurable evidence and observations support the "big bang" all the way up to the point when cosmic inflation started around 13.8 billion years ago. Not knowing what started it or what was there before it doesn't mean a god creating it 6,000 years ago and making it look old is an equivalent idea. Evolution is supported by so many fields of study that all in turn support each other. We can trace the origins of life back almost 4 million years on this planet. Not knowing exactly how it started doesn't mean a god speaking plants, animals, and two humans into existence is just as plausible. I've always found it odd people tend to put a god into the currently unexplained parts of science. It's just a space that gets smaller and smaller.
Science is, at it's most basic level, observing what happened and drawing conclusions. Science told us that the world was flat, until the observations changed and then we came to a new conclusion. Both flat-earth and round earth hypotheses were scientific. The science changed based on the available data. Science used to do medicine based on humors in the body. Now the data has changed, so the science changed.
We watch a football replay 28 times in slow motion and still can't decide if it's a catch, but I'm supposed to take as gospel (pun intended) that science has proven exactly how old a bone is? We aren't even sure what gasses were present, and in what quantity, in our atmosphere 3,000 years ago, much less 100K, or a million years ago. So any "scientist" that throws out theories as to the origin of the earth as fact instead of what they are, ie, theories is not really a scientist.
I find it better to simply say, "That's interesting." Because it is interesting. The big bang is an interesting theory. Creation is an interesting idea. Aliens planting a seed that sprouts into humanity is an interesting thing to consider. We may see one as more probable than another, but to treat any of them as fact and the others as mere fantasy reveals an unscientific mind.
Great questions. #2 and #3 are the ones that really matter. #1 is interesting to talk about but ultimately a side issue- meaning the gospel doesn’t stand or fall on whether the earth is 6,000 or 4.5 billion years old. The gospel will stand or fall in discussion of your questions #2 and #3.
Question #2- Billions have lived and died without ever hearing even a mention about Jesus much less the gospel. Btw which of course include people with profound intellectual disabilities who can’t comprehend concepts like I’ve been asking paindonthurt and Maroon Eagle about.
If salvation requires a clear, informed decision to “accept or reject,” as you’re asking, then most of humanity was born doomed from the start. That sounds like a rigged game or test.
But what if the real opportunity isn’t limited to this life? Which I don’t think it is. There is even scriptural room for post mortem encounters with Jesus- the gospel being proclaimed to the dead ect if that’s what you’re looking for, for that kind of evidence. In 1 Peter 3:19–20 and 4:6- Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison or “hell” and says the gospel was preached even to those who are dead. Many early church fathers, as do I, see this as Jesus proclaiming good news to the dead, offering them salvation after death. 1 Peter 4:6 even says- “For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.”
This suggests to me that the dead can still respond and live in the spirit. Why not? Revelation says says Heavens gates will never shut. Why not? Jesus says he has the keys to death and Hades. What for? Is He a Rescuer? Does God’s love give up at death? Or can the gospel still reach the dead and restoration can happen even in the post mortem- Every knee will bow (Phil 2:10–11)- not because they’re forced, but because love finally wins every heart.
That leads straight to your #3 question.
If God is unconditional love, why create anyone predestined to be tortured forever?
He didn’t.
Eternal torment contradicts a God who is love (1 John 4:8) and wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). Eternal torment was a concept that took hold by Augustine after he advocated and systimized it. Unfortunately we are most subject to Augustine here in the west in terms of Christian doctrine influence. Note- eternal torment was not the dominant or universal view in early Christianity through the first 5 centuries. The almost universal position was “hell” was purely restorative and purifying.
Again, eternal torment contradicts a God who is love and wants all to be saved. And the fire of judgment is restorative (check out 1 Cor 3:13–15 and Mal 3:2–3 ect) not destructive forever. Btw, we will all be “salted with fire” (Mark 9:49) for this reason.
Final thoughts- The restoration of all things (Acts 3:21) is promised.
Love pursues until every lost sheep is found.
Even after death.
Even for those who never had a chance here.
Not only the concept of Love, but actual Love Itself wins.
Good questions! Stick with #2 and #3!
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Science never said the world was flat. A bunch of men did because they couldn’t see the curve themselves. Like I said, science is science. Acknowledging scientific fact does not keep one from believing in god.
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