Poll: Dee Bost or Jamont Gordon?

[EEMan]

Coming fresh off the heels of one of Dee's best performances of his career, I got to thinking about this question. If you had to pick one of these two guys to be on your team, which one would you pick?

I am curious to see what others opinions are regarding these guys because it seems as though many people were ready to see Jamont go and usher in a new era. Now that we're most of the way through two years of Dee, which player would you rather have on your team?

 

[EEMan]

Coming fresh off the heels of one of Dee's best performances of his career, I got to thinking about this question. If you had to pick one of these two guys to be on your team, which one would you pick?

I am curious to see what others opinions are regarding these guys because it seems as though many people were ready to see Jamont go and usher in a new era. Now that we're most of the way through two years of Dee, which player would you rather have on your team?

 

[HD6]

Why don't you ask if I'd rather have Kodi Augustus or Lawrence Roberts while you're at it?

 

[EEMan]

I feel the same way, but I was just curious to see how the numbers played out. I still know a few people that are glad Jamont no longer plays for MSU.

 

[Rabid]

On the same team.

 

[HD6]

I say Jamont. I just think he had to have the ball in his hands, and I say he's a better passer as well.

 

[mstateglfr]

<span class="post-title">I like Dee, but how on earth could anyone vote for him here?</span>

Becausethe otheroption is aselfishPG that rarely made others around him better. Sure he got his points and rebounds, and sure he got some assiststhru the few timeshe wasnt taking over the game, but a PG's best quality is making those around him better...andJamont almost never did that.

Bost does a better job of that.

I would in a heartbeatvote for Jamont if that meantmy vote came with a coach that could hold him accountablefor being too selfishand out of control.

Jamont's shortcomings were highlighted by the fact that Stans for whatever reason refused to actuallybench him forpoor decision after poor decision(when he got on a roll), and also becausehis supporting cast wasnt alwaysexactly excellent.

Why wouldnt everyone vote for the player that ushered in the current 1 man move while 4 stand still offense?

 

[Rabid]

Jamont is a better passer.

But, I would have put Dee at point and Jamont at the 2. I like Dee's quickness and ability to slash to the basket. I would have liked to see Jamont move without the ball. I think they would have been an awesome combo together.

 

[EEMan]

Just for fun, here are some numbers for Jamont and Dee from each of their sophomore years.

<table style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 144pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="192"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="3" width="64"><tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" height="17" width="64">
</td><td style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Jamont</td><td style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Dee</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Points</td><td class="xl24" align="right">16</td><td align="right">12</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Rebounds</td><td align="right">7.1</td><td align="right">4.6</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Assists</td><td align="right">5.3</td><td align="right">5.2</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">A/T ratio</td><td align="right">1.52</td><td align="right">1.57</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">FG%</td><td align="right">41.9</td><td align="right">37</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">3p%</td><td align="right">34.7</td><td align="right">34.1</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">FT%</td><td align="right">70.7</td><td align="right">72.4</td></tr></tbody></col></table>

 

[coachjek]

Just for fun, here are some numbers for Jamont and Dee from each of their sophomore years.

<table style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 144pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="192"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="3" width="64"><tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 48pt;" height="17" width="64">
</td><td style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Jamont</td><td style="width: 48pt;" width="64">Dee</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Points</td><td class="xl24" align="right">16</td><td align="right">12</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Rebounds</td><td align="right">7.1</td><td align="right">4.6</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Assists</td><td align="right">5.3</td><td align="right">5.2</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">A/T ratio</td><td align="right">1.52</td><td align="right">1.57</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">FG%</td><td align="right">41.9</td><td align="right">37</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">3p%</td><td align="right">34.7</td><td align="right">34.1</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td class="xl24" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">FT%</td><td align="right">70.7</td><td align="right">72.4</td></tr></tbody></col></table>

are those Jamonts career numbers or are they for his first two years

 

[HD6]

another coach who can't read.

 

[patdog]

There is just no comparison between the two. Jamont was the least appreciated star player we've ever had.

 

[HD6]

sheer badassery.

 

[EEMan]

<span> <span id="temp-1"><span> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GBpUOlhV4LA?f=videos&app=youtube_gdata" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425" allowScriptAccess="never" ></embed></a>[url="http://www.youtube.com/v/GBpUOlhV4LA?f=videos&app=youtube_gdata"] </span> </span>http://www.youtube.com/v/GBpUOlhV4LA?f=videos&app=youtube_gdata<a class="jijemkgjjoebcugnuhow" href="http://www.youtube.com/v/GBpUOlhV4LA?f=videos&app=youtube_gdata">[/url] </span>

 

[coachjek]

another coach who can't read.

sorry.... ADD kicked in and I was drawn to the table.

 

[Rabid]

Assists are practically the same. Assists to turnover ratio is practically the same.

Jamont scored more and had a higher shooting percentage.

Wouldn't that suggest that Dee should be the PG and Jamont the SG?

 

[anon1751035439]

ku

 

[anon1751035439]

ku

 

[VirgilCain]

I screamed at him and writhed in my chair like a child due to his idiocy at times but he was a badass.... and he knew it. He came into every game with that attitude that he was going to beat the entire opposing team by himself.

Now our team has taken on the (non)attitude and demeanor of barry stewart. Which partly may explain why the crowd participation sucks now too.

 

[BlindDawg]

To reinforce your point, Gordon and Rhodes had no doubt in their mind that they were the best players on the floor every single time they stepped on the court. I miss seeing that, and I agree with you that our team misses it. That confidence seeps over into the rest of the team when you got players like that.

 

[VirgilCain]

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JCBk8jC8qL8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowScriptAccess="never" width="640" height="505" ></embed>

Watch Jamont just toy with his defender just before eating him alive. I think that guy was shitting his pants the entire time Jamont was slowly bringing the ball up the court, and for good reason.

Listen to that crowd.

I already miss those days.

 

[patdog]

It wasn't where would you play these two players if you had them both, it was which one of them would you rather have on your team. The numbers prove Jamont was just as good as Dee at the things point guards traditionally do (assists, take care of the ball, etc.) and a much better shooter, scorer and rebounder. So the answer to the question should be obvious.

 

[dawgstudent]

Stansbury would have kept Jamont at PG and Stewart at the 2.

 

[jda2631]

<span id="temp-0"><span> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JCBk8jC8qL8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowScriptAccess="never" height="505" width="640" ></embed> </span> </span>

Watch Jamont just toy with his defender just before eating him alive. I think that guy was shitting his pants the entire time Jamont was slowly bringing the ball up the court, and for good reason.

Listen to that crowd.

I already miss those days.

go to like the 50 second mark of this video, and look at rhodes staring into the crowd as jamont is driving, not paying a bit of attention. if he would have waited another second or 2 to turn around, that pass would have hit him in the side of the head with him looking into the crowd.? just though that was kind of funny

 

[Dental Dawg]

I just checked wikipedia and never heard "Jamoney's Honeys". Are these Croatian Honeys or were they from MSU.

 

[SallyStansbury]

Have been saying this since early in the year.

Ravern = ***** (any word on if his torn labia has healed since Sat.?).

Barry = ***** (butgood defender so spare your Barry is the greatest and is unappreciated responses).

Jarvis = attempting to sychronizeperiod with Barry and Ravern (still gets good blocks and rebounds).

Lets not even discussBenock. I refuse to acknowledge him as an SEC player.

Glad that Barry's weak, non-finishinglayup was in the Jamont dunk highlight* Dang.

We have to have sufficient quantities of Phil, Kodi, Dee and Osby in the game at any given time or our team goes into Lifetime* mode. I think the biggest challenge for Rick has been optimizing the lineup substitution patternsto keep at leasttwo of these guys in the game at any given time.

On an aside and unrelated topic, because it isn't worth another thread, what is Barry Stewart's career free throw % on the front end of a 1 & 1and the front end of a (shoot 2)? I bet it is below 50%. I have no idea how to access those stats. It kills me.

 

[mstateglfr]

And Jamont rarely did that. He is part of one of the greatest plays in MSU basketball ive ever seen, the behind the back no look dump off to Rhodes for a dunk, but that was more exception than norm.

Jamont was a total badass for us, but if we have him, then Stans puts him at the point...which i just dont think is best for a team typically.

 

[patdog]

Jamont had 5.3 assists per game as a soph. Dee Bost has 5.2 assists per game as a soph. So exactly how is Dee making players around so much better than Jamont did? If Jamont was our PG instead of Dee, we'd be talking about what seed we'd have in the tournament and whether this would be the year Stans finally makes the Sweet 16 instead of whether or not we'd be in it.

 

[ckDOG]

I say buy. Here's why: I think Bost has the physical tools to be a
very high performing PG, in the traditional view of a PG. He's quick, strong, has good vision, and has a good enough shot to keep defenders honest. However, our
"motion" offense or whatever it is doesn't really allow a PG to do what
a PG typically does, which is direct the flow of an offense, penetrate
then pass, etc. Instead, we have an offense where the ball just
"floats" around the perimeter until either a) a shot opens up or b) JV
works into a good position.

Either way, it's a fairly directionless
offense (as far as set plays with a purpose) and when you are a guy like Dee, who has the tools to be the
floor leader, it basically wastes his talent. I think Dee tries too hard at times by taking games over by getting things done himself. It's as if he's frustrated with the pace of play and doesn't want to "wait" for something to develop when he has a good idea that that's not likely to happen. When the rest of your offense isn't
in sync with what he's trying to do, it can be a pretty painful
result. Watch his bad games. Most of his turnovers are a result of him trying to make something happen on his own but the other 4 on the court freeze as if they've never seen a guard drive the lane. Dee can't get other players in position entirely by himself. He needs at least a little help.

 

[DerHntr]

and what you don't realize now, is that Jamont took over the game with his "selfish" play because there was nothing else offered to him by our stand around the perimeter offense. apparently he didn't care for it much and drove the lane because he could and because, wait for it, it was more successful than passing it around the perimeter and hoping for a three to fall. plus, as mentioned previously, in their sophomore years Jamont had virtually identical numbers in assists. so you can't say he didn't do the same as Dee when it comes to making others around him better (if assists is they way you quantify it of course)

 

[mstateglfr]

Jamont had 5.3 assists per game as a soph. Dee Bost has 5.2 assists per game as a soph. So exactly how is Dee making players around so much better than Jamont did? If Jamont was our PG instead of Dee, we'd be talking about what seed we'd have in the tournament and whether this would be the year Stans finally makes the Sweet 16 instead of whether or not we'd be in it.

You dont actually think thatassists are what shows if a player makes those around him better or not...right? Assistsbarely shows if a PG makes those around him better, much less all players. Assits tell only part of the story.

Again, i would MUCH rather have Jamontover Bost as a player...just not at the point. And since Jamont would play the point, its tough to say id want him more. I wouldrather he play SG or SF. If that were the case, i would take him every time.

In a pickup game, i would take Jamontover Bostevery day. Andthough our offense often times resembles a pickupgame...

 

[mstateglfr]

Yeah i realize he at times took over the game because the other options were terrible. I said as much in a different post. And that can be at times seen as selfish because it is. Cant fault him when there are no other options, but you can when he brings the ball up and jacks a 3 before even a pass much less a screen. When Bost does that, its also selfish, i recognize that.

Jamont wasnt alone though. He had Rhodes for 3 years, an offensively gifted post player. He had Jarvis for 2 years, limited on offense, but the same post player as Bost has. He had Hansbrough for 2 years, a great outside shooter. He had Delk for 2 years, another great outside shooter. He had Stewart for 2 years, yet another great outside shooter.
If Jamont's options were limited, then Bost's are downright non-existent. Jamont had plenty of options. They werent overall better than him at times, and so the 1 move 4 stand offense was born.

 

[sparky39762]

Rhodes: "Man, we just toyin' wit em now, ref. Now it's time for bread and butterrun some sweet play so we're all over SportsCenter tonight. Charles Rhodes likes watching himself on TV. You like to watch SportsCen-"
Ref: "You better turn around."

 

[KurtRambis4]

but how do you think assists are not an indication of whether or not a PG makes people around him better or not?

 

[coastdawg228]

but as for someone to lead a team - Dee - no questions about it. Jamont had more talent and made more ridiculous plays, but Dee knows how to control the game, not to mention directing Kodi around the court like a mother motioning to a 9 year old at an elementary school play.

 

[Johnson85]

Judging by how he played as a freshman, I think Dee could be a very good point guard if he was running the right offense. But assuming your talking about playing for our team, where we aren't going to have a particularly good offense for him to run, you have to take the person that can create his own shot from any point on the floor. </p>

 

[Sutterkane]

[No message]

 

[EEMan]

He had Hansbrough for 2 years, a great outside shooter. He had Delk for 2 years, another great outside shooter. He had Stewart for 2 years, yet another great outside shooter.

Outside shooters are pretty equal. Jamont didn't have a Ravern Johnson who is statistically better than all of these guys.

(These numbers are from each guy's sophomore year. In Jamont's junior year, the shooting was markedly worse.)

<table style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 122pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="163"><col style="width: 74pt;" width="99"><col style="width: 48pt;" width="64"><tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 74pt;" height="17" width="99">Jamont's Guys</td><td style="width: 48pt;" width="64">
</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td><td>3p%</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Reggie Delk</td><td align="right">35.4</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Barry Stewart</td><td align="right">39.1</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Richard Delk</td><td align="right">34.9</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Hansbrough</td><td align="right">41.2</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td><td>
</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Dee's Guys</td><td>
</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td><td>3p%</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Ravern Johnson</td><td align="right">43</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Barry Stewart</td><td align="right">36.4</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Kodi Augustus</td><td align="right">33.9</td></tr><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"><td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Romero Osby</td><td align="right">41.4</td></tr></tbody></col></col></table>

 

[mstateglfr]

I didnt say they are not an indication, i said they barely show if a PG is making those around him better.

Slight difference? Sure.Its because i recognize that assists do tell part of the story, but only part of it.

A player that is constantly setting screens to create shots for others isnt getting credit, yet makes those around him better. A player that dives for a loose ball isnt getting credit yet makes those around him better. A player that can effectively drive, draw the defense in, and dish may get credit, but his play makes those around him better.
A player that gives up the ball on a fast break at half court wont get credit, yet makes those around him better.

And thats just on offense. Defensively, players that slide over to assist make those around him better.

What doesnt make those around him better is when a player works to create his own shot and only gives it up when he is stuck. That will net him an assist yet not actually help the others play better.