Prayer Request...

8dog

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Feb 23, 2008
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I don't normally do this but please pray for Vandy starting pitcher Mike Minor. Minor has thrown over 100 pitches in 5 of his last 6 starts, including 122 one outing.

Also, keep Bama starter Austin Hyatt in mind. Hyatt has thrown well over 100 pitches in all 5 conference starts, including a run of 122, 132, 120.

Thanks in advance.
 

8dog

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Feb 23, 2008
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I don't normally do this but please pray for Vandy starting pitcher Mike Minor. Minor has thrown over 100 pitches in 5 of his last 6 starts, including 122 one outing.

Also, keep Bama starter Austin Hyatt in mind. Hyatt has thrown well over 100 pitches in all 5 conference starts, including a run of 122, 132, 120.

Thanks in advance.
 

OMlawdog

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Feb 27, 2008
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This is from Baseball Prospectus:

So to understand the methods we use to analyze pitcher usage, it's important to appreciate that while every team in baseball today employs essentially the same usage pattern--starting pitchers work in a five-man rotation, with four or five days of rest between starts, and never relieving in between--that usage pattern is far from the norm historically.
  • As recently as 30 years ago, starters were expected to start every fourth day, with only three days of rest between starts. This does not appear to have had a detrimental effect on the pitchers of that era; in fact, over half of the 300-game winners of the live-ball era were in the prime of their careers in the early 1970s.
  • There is no definitive proof that pitching in any kind of rotation is a necessary ingredient for successful pitching staffs. Through the 1950s, starting pitchers would routinely get six or seven days off to pitch against a team they matched up favorably against, then return to the mound on just two days' rest for their next start.
  • There is no evidence that starting pitchers who relieve on their days off between starts suffer adversely for doing so. Starting pitchers routinely made 10 or 15 relief appearances a season for the better part of half a century.

So if starting pitchers have been used in many different ways over the years, and there's no hard evidence that any one usage pattern was more likely to keep pitchers healthy, how do we determine whether a pitcher is being used in a manner that's likely to get him hurt?</p>

One thing we have learned is that for starting pitchers, how many days off they get between starts does not seem to correlate with injury risk. This series of articles carefully looks at the track record of pitchers working in a four-man rotation vs. pitchers in a five-man rotation, and finds that pitchers who worked in a four-man rotation stayed just as healthy as pitchers working every fifth day. It also showed that a pitcher working on three days of rest is no less effective than when he works on four days of rest, and in fact that he might have better command on less rest.</p>

What seems to matter isn't how often a starter pitches, but how much he pitches when he does take the mound. About five years ago, we unveiled a system known as Pitcher Abuse Points (PAP for short) that attempted to measure just how much is too much. The system is based on the following principles:</p> [list type=decimal] [*]While pitching is an inherently unnatural motion, throwing a pitch does not necessarily do permanent damage to a pitcher's arm. It's only when fatigue sets in (and a pitcher's mechanics start to waver) that continued pitching can result in irreversible injury. [*]There is a certain number of pitches that a pitcher can throw before that fatigue sets in. [*]Once a pitcher is fatigued, each additional pitch causes more damage, and results in more additional fatigue, than the pitch before. [/list]

The original version of PAP operated under the assumption that fatigue set in at 100 pitches, and after 100 pitches a starter was awarded Abuse Points for each additional pitch. The number of points he received per pitch slowly increased as he threw more pitches.</p>

Two years later, Keith Woolner performed the definitive study that examined the relationship between high pitch counts and injury risk. First, Woolner looked at whether there was a relationship between high pitch counts and decreased effectiveness over the pitchers next few starts. What he found was that, while the relationship was there, the formula for PAP needed to be changed--that until that point, the system did not penalize pitchers enough for really high pitch counts (120 and up) compared to a 105 or 110-pitch outing.</p>

Then using the new, refined formula for PAP, Woolner showed that there was, indeed, a link between high PAP scores and future injury risk.</p>

The way PAP scores are calculated is quite simple. Simply take the number of pitches thrown in any given start, and subtract by 100. (If the pitcher threw fewer than 100 pitches, he automatically receives zero PAP for that outing.) Then the resultant number is cubed to arrive at the PAP score for that start:</p>
Code:
 <font face="courier"> 100 pitches - 100 = 0^3 = 0 PAP 105 pitches - 100 = 5^3 = 125 PAP 115 pitches - 100 = 15^3 = 3375 PAP 130 pitches - 100 = 30^3 = 27000 PAP </font>
As you can see, by this method a 130-pitch outing is eight times more damaging than a 115-pitch start, and 216 times worse than throwing 105 pitches.

There's one other factor that needs to be considered when evaluating whether a starting pitcher is throwing too many pitches. As first explored by Craig Wright in his landmark book, The Diamond Appraised, starting pitchers under the age of 25 appear to be particularly sensitive to how many innings they are allowed to throw. Some of the most talented young pitchers of the last forty years--from Gary Nolan and Don Gullett in the 1970s, to Dwight Gooden in the 1980s, to the Mets' "young-guns" trio of Bill Pulsipher, Paul Wilson, and Jason Isringhausen in the 1990s--went on to suffer career-threatening injuries that prevented them from ever reaching their full potential. Conversely, two of the most durable starters of our generation, Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson, weren't even full-time starters in the majors until they turned 25.</p>

Indeed, when 21-year-old Kerry Wood blew out his elbow, the spring after one of the most exhilarating seasons ever by a rookie pitcher, it proved to be the spark needed to convince major-league organizations that lowering the pitch counts of their starting pitchers might prevent a significant number of injuries--and save them millions of dollars in the process.</p>

So to recap, here's everything we know about the usage of starting pitchers:</p>
  • There is no evidence that the current system of employing a five-man rotation is any better at accomplishing what it was created for--keeping pitchers healthy--than the four-man rotation. It appears that most pitchers simply don't need more than three days of rest between starts.
  • In the era of the four-man rotation, teams were able to get six or seven more starts, and 50-75 more innings, out of their best starters than teams do today.
  • Starting pitchers have, historically speaking, thrived without use of a fixed rotation at all.
  • Starting pitchers have, historically speaking, been used as relievers between starts without adverse consequences.
  • What seems to put starters at risk of injury is throwing too many pitches per start.
  • Roughly speaking, "too many pitches" seems to translate to "over 100".
  • Once a pitcher hits his fatigue point, his risk of injury goes up very quickly with each additional pitch.
  • Pitchers under the age of 25 are exquisitely sensitive to overuse.

The ideal usage pattern--something I think we'll see some teams try to emulate over the next decade--would probably look something like this:</p>
  • A reversion back to a four-man rotation, giving a regular starter 40 to 41 starts over the course of a season.
  • More careful observation of pitch counts, with most pitchers probably averaging about 90-95 pitches a start, and rarely going over 110 in any given outing. Older, more established pitchers might average closer to 100 pitches a start, with a soft limit of 120 pitches in an outing.
  • Judicious use of a starting pitcher on his standard throw day between starts could net another seven or eight appearances and 10-15 innings over the course of a season.

Individual starting pitchers throw fewer innings, and therefore have less overall value, today than at any point in baseball history. But it doesn't have to be that way. By following these guidelines, teams should be able to safely get 280-290 innings out of their #1 starter, instead of the 220-230 innings we see today.</p>
 

8dog

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Dyson has gone over 100 pitches in his last 4 outings, including 115, 120 and in last night's win in Oxford 130.
 

beachbumdawg

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Nov 28, 2006
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8Dog said:
Dyson has gone over 100 pitches in his last 4 outings, including 115, 120 and <span style="font-weight: bold;">in last night's win in Oxford 130.</span>
no wonder the rebels are on here complaining about the high pitch count
 

OMlawdog

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That is fine. But I would I assume you would find an article that shows it is a good thing for a pitcher to throw 148 pitches in a game.

Hell Lance Lynn pitched 140+ in one game in his sophmore year and I bashed Bianco for that.

I think this article is quite persuasive, but evidently you don't.</p>
 

patdog

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148 pitches is too many. And Cohen has plenty of company among college coaches who abuse pitchers. Most all of them do it. They try to justify it by saying, well they only pitch once per week, but all the evidence is that the pitchers would be much better off if the top 2 starters on a college team were put on offsetting Friday-Wednesday (with a 75 pitch count)-Sunday rotations and not thrown for more than 120 pitches max in any outing.
 

8dog

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Im not going to read it. Im sure it tells me that the more pitches you throw the worse it is for your arm. I don' t know anyone that disagrees with that.

My point is that what Cohen did is not uncommon. The 2 best coaches in the league are throwing the hell out of their guys. As you admit, bianco has done it. Just b/c you bashed him doesn't mean a. it was wrong or b. that you didn't overreact.

If Whitney throws 148 every game, I'll get worried. But that's only the 2nd time he's topped 100 this year. It'll certainly happen more b/c we have no pen, but aGAIN, coaches who know what they are doing are doing the same stuff.
 

8dog

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but if you don't want to pray to Cohen, that's your own funeral.
 

patdog

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It does make a compelling case that pitchers should not be left out there that long. And you are right that most every college coach does it. Most every college coach is wrong though.
 

BriantheDawg

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Greg Byrne is the King of Kings.

Come on now. You should know better than that.

/I can't believe I'm having this conversation on Easter weekend.
 

8dog

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I have skimmed it. One thing they don't look at is, what effect 6 full days rest has versus 3 or 4.

But I still agree, the more pitches you throw the worse. Cohen has actually been better about this than several coaches so far. Im sure if we ever get a bullpen, he'll be even more willing to go to them.
 

jackstefano

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And last year, if you have access to that information. Then we can judge if Cohen is just doing what every other coach does, as you claim.
 

bulldogbaja

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Basically it says that it doesn't really matter how long you wait between starts, but every pitch over 100 exerts a certain amount of permanent damage on the arm. At Pitch #130 you've exerted 216 times more damage than at Pitch #105. And since it adds exponentially, by my math, a SINGLE 148-pitch outing is 110,592 times worse than a 105-pitch outing, and could easily end a pitcher's career.
 

8dog

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but I don't know that for a fact. A one time pitch count doesn't make someone an abuser of arms.
An ole miss poster above said Bianco threw Lynn 140+ one time so I assume Lynn is back in Indiana pumping gas left-handed.
 

patdog

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The evidence tends to show that days rest doesn't really matter that much, but pitches thrown per outing does. So, whether he's throwing 148 pitches on 3 days rest or on 6 days rest or 10 days rest isn't that big of a difference. It's still too many pitches and runs the risk of injury. You're right about the bullpen comment. If Cohen wasn't so terrified of our relievers (and with good reason), I doubt he'd have thrown nearly as many pitches last night. You're also right that Cohen isn't any worse offender than most other coaches out there. The funny thing is, many UM fans are up in arms over this and their own coach is at least as big of an offender as Cohen is and the man their coach learned from was possibly the worst offender ever.
 

8dog

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but I think they are only looking at 3 days versus 4 days b/c they are just looking at MLB historical data b/w 4 and 5 man rotations. 6 days rest may not be any better for a pitcher, but that's really hard to believe--particularly when you are talking about guys who only throw 15-18 times a year versus 35-40.

Whats odd to me is that the 100 pitch mark they use seems arbitrary. Also, all arms are different. And then there is the fact that Whitney isn't trying to throw heat. He is a spot guy who uses his off speed stuff to get outs.

And I have no research to back this up, but it seems like relievers have the most trouble staying healthy over a career, but that's just speculation.

But let me reiterate, I don't think its any great thing to throw 148 pitches. But its also no reason to crucify Cohen.
 

patdog

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They also play summer ball and get another 10-12 starts there. So that's about 25-30 starts for a college pitcher. You've also overstated the number of starts MLB pitchers get. Last year, no pitcher started more than 34 games.
 

Todd4State

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is the age of the pitchers. I just skimmed the article to, but I'm pretty sure that they are talking about MLB pitchers, who are in general, as a group older than college pitchers, and because of the aging process can not take as much abuse as a 21 year old pitcher.

They also, as mentioned typically work on five days rest vs six, and they also pitch more innings in a season than college pitchers.

Another thing- and you can't really measure this- but there are some pitchers that can handle more of a workload than others. Roger Clemens was a good example (yeah, yeah, steroids) but he was a workhorse even in the early 90's. Clemens could easily throw 120-130 and come back fine. Curt Schilling is another example. Jack Morris. There are plenty.
 

8dog

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here's a fun fact in looking at all this. Randy Johnson AVERAGED over 120 pitches an outing in 1999. That dude is still going. That's amazing.

Ironically, the top 5 pitchers in college in PAP in 2001 played for Rice, Ole Miss, AZ St., LSU, and Southen Cal in that order.
 

SoxFan343

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Feb 25, 2008
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and it states that it's worse for young guys than older guys.

No matter what, there is no reason to have a guy throw 148 pitches. I was furious when Bianco had Lance Lynn throw 141 two seasons ago.

It's just reckless.