In theory, it is possible to be anti-Zionist (that is, to oppose Jews returning to Israel) but not anti-Semitic. But there are seven million Jews in Israel. The end of Israel means that they will be either dead, oppressed, or exiled. That's a pretty anti-Semitic result.
President Holloway to Yale?
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You will be setting a new world record for ludicrously hyperbolistic narrative if you try to equate the drivers for those three things and today's social, socioeconomic or political disagreements.
Not to mention you still haven't made any kind of case at all for why demonization or hatred are somehow helpful here.
mildone: the two parties solve nothing through demonization
abc: the left is twisted and evil
mildone: okay but I'm pretty sure they think the same about you
mildone: also pretty sure nobody on either side cares what the other side thinks
abc: the left is twisted and evil
mildone: mm hm, you said that already
mildone: hatred and demonization haven't been working, try something different maybe
abc: the left is twisted and evil
mildone: lift the needle off the record dude
abc: rev war civil war civil rights, so there
mildone: huh, well, that's sure different alright
I have put the gentleman on ignore. Perhaps you should do the same. He is so extreme that it is not possible to have a useful discussion with him.You will be setting a new world record for ludicrously hyperbolistic narrative if you try to equate the drivers for those three things and today's social, socioeconomic or political disagreements.
Not to mention you still haven't made any kind of case at all for why demonization or hatred are somehow helpful here.
mildone: the two parties solve nothing through demonization
abc: the left is twisted and evil
mildone: okay but I'm pretty sure they think the same about you
mildone: also pretty sure nobody on either side cares what the other side thinks
abc: the left is twisted and evil
mildone: mm hm, you said that already
mildone: hatred and demonization haven't been working, try something different maybe
abc: the left is twisted and evil
mildone: lift the needle off the record dude
abc: rev war civil war civil rights, so there
mildone: huh, well, that's sure different alright
I think you're at least partially correct here. And I agree that, within the rules governing protests at the locations they wish to protest, people should be allowed to peacefully protest whatever they want. That's a fundamental American freedom.
There's little doubt some of the protestors are anti-Semitic. But many are, as you say, opposed to Zionism. Some are opposed merely to Israel's actions with regard to Palestinians (including many Israelis, btw, and I think we can be certain they are not anti-Semitic). Some are opposed to war in general. Some are opposed to there being so much apparently collateral damage.
Some nuance in how people view the situation is extremely helpful. It's a situation fraught with immense complexities. If it wasn't, if it was a simple thing, then it would've been resolved long ago.
He's a very intelligent extremist. I do skip past most posts from unintelligent extremists 'cause they just mindlessly regurgitate propaganda they don't even understand which is boring. And because responding to them is like talking to a brick wall (only the brick wall is more interesting and useful).
If I put all extremists on ignore, then (a) I wouldn't have the opportunity to observe the extremism taking place around the nation firsthand, and (b) I wouldn't have the opportunity to make fun of it, which is childish of me, I know, but I have this likely misplaced hope of potentially one day converting an extremist to a moderate - and there's no hope of doing that w/an unintelligent extremist.
At least that's my rationalization and I'm sticking to it.
How is this thread still open?
It is full of unrelated & political drivel.
When I started a thread about gas prices going down, the thread was deleted and I got a posting time out. Yet this **** stays up and is allowed by the moderators
It is full of unrelated & political drivel.
When I started a thread about gas prices going down, the thread was deleted and I got a posting time out. Yet this **** stays up and is allowed by the moderators
I'm not trying to make a case for anything because the realities speak for themselves at this point. Historically high, minority blue voters bases are down 20 points. I know exactly why but you want that blocked out - being "above it all" and such. When they complain to me I'll just let them know they are just demonizers and haters. They wont care though.
The problem with legitimacy that these protests and those in Charlottesville face are essentially the same. It’s extremely difficult to disaggregate being proud of Confederate history from a veiled condoning of slavey. The same is true here. It’s extremely difficult to protest against the existence of a predominantly Jewish country without it also being veiled antisemitism.
The definition that we use for Zionism seems to be different from the protestors. There is no admonition for the actual Hamas atrocities, no discussion of a two state solution, and no nuance between Israel and Jews. What I’ve read, seen and heard, is that these protesters predominantly call for the end of a colonialist, ethno, apartheid state.
They have every right to peacefully protest for such a result, but they can’t hide from criticism by claiming they’re protesting zionists and not Jews. Similarly, those at Charlottesville couldn’t avoid criticism by claiming love of their Confederate ancestry rather than tacit racism.
You aren't making a case 'cause you know you can't.
And now you're on your second or third post in a row where you're trying to put words in my mouth I've never said so you can argue against that instead.
Who knew you would get so aggravated by being unable to give an example of how demonization and hatred solved something? Well, I mean, okay - that was disingenuous of me. I knew all along you'd get aggravated by it.
Who loves ya, baby?
You aren't making a case 'cause you know you can't.
And now you're on your second or third post in a row where you're trying to put words in my mouth I've never said so you can argue against that instead.
Who knew you would get so aggravated by being unable to give an example of how demonization and hatred solved something? Well, I mean, okay - that was disingenuous of me. I knew all along you'd get aggravated by it.
Who loves ya, baby?
If I got aggravated I be one of the little girls in party dresses with an ignore list. Never occurs to me. That's a drinker's mindset.
"The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way:But the folly of fools is deceit."
Proverbs 14:8
Well sure, the protestors have their opinions and many people will disagree with and criticize those opinions (including, for the most part, me). I think the protestors would do better to protest the criminally poor leadership of the Palestinian people, who have brought the Palestinian people nothing but sadness and grief for so long.
But I still support their right to protest despite my view that's it's a waste of time and despite me mostly disagreeing with it. The one part I agree about is that I too dislike the apparently high level of collateral damage. Harming children is never going to be acceptable to me, no matter who the combatants are.
Is why I've long been a proponent for anonymous surgical strikes using special forces. Get in while everyone's sleeping, kill some of the combatant leadership, get out before anybody knows you're there. Leave no evidence of who did it behind. Make no claim to responsibility.
It's riskier, but typically results in very little, if any, collateral damage. And done right, it dramatically increases the fear level among the enemy. It also doesn't tend to help terrorists with their recruiting and financing nearly so much as killing non-combatants (especially kids) does.
But politicians like to make big statements and damn the long term consequences. Anonymous surgical special ops strikes do little to help politicians' popularity.
"Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness."
1 John 2:9
The 1 must have slipped through the screening process. You think that was a random sample?
In my past, I was a participant in the type of warfare that you’re proposing. I don’t think targeted strikes would have accomplished the Israelis’ goal of destroying Hamas. I had to do some research, but it seems that Hamas had about 30,000 fighters in Gaza. Israel says it’s killed around 10,000, which is not provable, but that would still leave a sizable number among the civilian population.
According to the AP, about 2 million people live in Gaza, but it may be closer to 1 million based on census. Nevertheless, the vast majority live in cities, where the IDF has found large underground tunnel networks.
An enormous population in a small area, with limited intelligence and a large subterranean tunnel network, make the kinds of operations that you’re advocating for, very unlikely to be successful.
In addition, the Israelis are fighting against a virulent ideology. There is no circumstance, short of their destruction that would satisfy their enemies. I don’t think that any military action can prevent the spread of extremist religious beliefs, regardless of the religion.
With this campaign, the Israelis have only bought themselves time and a small hope that a new Palestinian regime would be amenable to peace.
When the FBI and others are warning about the greatest level of risks they've ever seen, and people willfully wanting to tune that out then that's hating brothers and sisters who will be hit. Same for tuning-out 100k fentanyl deaths, the intentional dismantling of borders etc. Its pretty clear the country is inviting disaster in many ways.
Alas I know there are people who resent being aware of that and want to tune it out. I know its impossible to consult with people like until the reality hits them in the nose - as it will soon. Director Wray doing some hating:
FBI director has been sounding alarm on ‘heightened threat environment’: Is America listening?
"I do want the American people to know that we cannot afford to sleep on this danger. As a government and a society, we’ve got to remain vigilant and actively defend against the threat that Beijing poses...Let’s not forget that it didn’t take a big number of people on 9/11 to kill 3,000 people."
Of course since CCP owns the top of DC its possible CCP being set-up as fall guy. How to warn of small number of 9-11 attackers while DC lets in millions of strangers?
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Hamas is a murderous terror organization that needs to be eliminated for the benefits of Isreal and Palestine.
The government of Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza by targeting civilians, (on a grand scale) aid workers and journalists. They are also starving millions of people in Gaza intentionally by blocking aid from getting to civilians.
Both things can be, and are, true.
You can be pro-Palestine and not pro-Hamas.
You can also be against the leadership of Israel and not be an anti-Semite (just like you can be against the President of the US and not hate America).
The government of Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza by targeting civilians, (on a grand scale) aid workers and journalists. They are also starving millions of people in Gaza intentionally by blocking aid from getting to civilians.
Both things can be, and are, true.
You can be pro-Palestine and not pro-Hamas.
You can also be against the leadership of Israel and not be an anti-Semite (just like you can be against the President of the US and not hate America).
Hamas hides in/under hospitals and schools so there's that.
Other Arab countries see Pals are chronic troublemakers and want nothing to do with helping them (now or in past).
I don't agree with the scale of the Gazza response ( I know the "refugees" will end-up in US) but I think Israel has been putting-up with rockets and attacks for decades. Western leaders try to win peace prizes forcing silly get alongs.
Bill Clinton said Pals could have had everything they wanted in 90s but rejected deal. They don't want "two states" they want one a dead Jews.
I'm sure Israeli leaders figured out long ago the DC crowd was going to throw them under the bus. They've been getting closer to Iran and CCP since 2008.
In the big picture, Israli war games over the years have proven they can't win a war against multiple foes. Its not 1967 anymore and the weapons are better than people realize.
Turkey's Erdogan took a big hit in elections because turks want a war with Israel - same with Egyptian population. Cordial relations between leaders of ME states are shallow and could blow away any day - its a power keg over there. DC "appearing" pro Israel one week and pro Hamas another just winds everybody up abroad and at home.
Its going to blow one way or another. Pakistan already promised nuke warheads to Iran (if they dont have their own anyway). They can be put on launch platforms easy. The compact warheads are like 250 lbs and can be put in a sedan. On top of that, Pakistan's Taliban and Al Qaeda are back and outside Islamabad menacing the Pakistan gov. They might get nukes.
Nuke war games show that when a nuke launches everybody escalates rapidly out of fear of being late. The ME is a gas leak and ninny leaders are tossing matches. When a war breaks out there things will break out here and people will be horrified. Too soft for too long.
Same with those who do the sit in thing.
When the “homeowner” says it’s time to leave, you leave or face the consequences. Be they being arrested, possibly fired or expelled.
I want to particularly endorse these statements. Let me add one other thing: it is not either-or. As hard as it is to imagine right now, there can be both an Israel and a Palestine. That's what we need to be working for. Slogans like "from the river to the sea" obscure this and only make it harder to arrive at the compromise that is needed.
Personally FBI hasn't told me anything I couldn't already guess at and expect. I've watched risks being taken for years and now the FBI is concerned? People are on campuses calling for death to Jews/Israel/America with no penalties but moms at school board meetings get swatted . I'm sure there are good FBI people but I have little faith in all the leadership when they ignore unsecure, Betty Crocker PCs in Chappaqua and articulate plans to scuttle elections they dont like.
I think most people don’t understand how destructive the IDF could actually be, if they did target civilians on a grand scale. They could easily kill hundreds of thousands over a short period of time with a sustained air bombardment, given the density of the population. We killed more than 200,000 in one night, in both Tokyo and Dresden during World War II. The destructive nature of munitions today is, obviously, significantly greater.
In Syria, the first two years of the civil war, estimates were 250,000 dead and 1/5 were children. Most would say that was a gross undercount. Presently, it’s very likely that the death toll is in the millions. They are primarily using only conventional weapons in that theater.
I do agree that one can protest Israeli government policies, especially those concerning settlements, and not be antisemitic. However, the protestors seem fixated on destroying Israel and not a two state solution, which is why I view it as antisemitic.
There was an interesting piece in the Wall Street Journal last December which reported that many of those chanting "from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free" had no idea either which river or which sea they were referring to, or that their slogan was inconsistent with the existence of Israel. (Note: the link should not be behind a pay wall).
https://www.wsj.com/articles/from-w...zuvkoc3w1si&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Those are good points and, if the Israelis truly lack the intelligence to locate key Hamas leadership figures, then I'd agree. I'd even argue that it makes such surgical strikes more than just unlikely to succeed, it makes such missions impossible. Can't strike what you can't find.
But then, I also think it unlikely that any of us here can speak knowledgeably as to what Israel's intelligence capabilities are with respect to the location of key Hamas' leadership figures. I certainly cannot.
Incidentally, it was never my suggestion that lower amounts of collateral damage reduce the spread of extremist religious beliefs. That would be too broadly stated to ever be provably correct (it's not exactly knowable beyond very rough intelligence estimates). I'm saying that increased collateral damage (especially of kids) can correlate with increased terrorist organization recruiting and financing (which can be observed and measured, to an extent, with various intelligence assets).
Many extremist religious people go their entire lives never acting upon their hatreds. Sleeping dogs is often the best outcome we can expect when it comes to fundamentalist religious extremism. And while the impact on Israel can be argued to be lost in the noise of so many violent Israeli-hating extremists in that region, it's not just Israel that is put at greater risk by too many collateral deaths in this conflict. It's a national security issue here in the US.
You would think that people would be informed, if they decide to protest. I would be lying if acted surprised, based on everything that I’ve seen and heard from this generation of college students.
I'm not so sure the kids protesting the Vietnam war were all that much better informed. There was certainly less widespread misinformation back then, though.
OTOH, the massive degree of misinformation today isn't just affecting college students; it's affecting everyone across all living generations, across all demographics, across all political parties.
I believe that Israel has shown that when they have actionable intelligence, they immediately act on it, regardless of the collateral fallout. Additionally, if they had any intelligence as to where their citizens were held, they’d have already rescued them. It’s clear that they possess very limited visibility in Gaza.
Collateral deaths in this conflict are a national security concern to most western democracies. Europe is currently experiencing similarly violent protests. They don’t, however, provide Israel with significant resources. In addition, the numbers of civilian Arab deaths in Syria are immense, but there hasn’t been a similar reaction to that conflict. It’s hard to escape the historical antisemitic shadow that hangs over this movement.
Should the US, Europe and Israel, change their foreign policies to placate religious extremists, totalitarian regimes, and/or bigoted mobs? For me it’s a hard no. I respect that for others, the answer depends on more issues than just the justifications for or against this conflict.
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Are they misinformed because of disinformation campaigns online, biases in mainstream and alternative media, or prejudices that influence what they are taught at these schools? The answer is probably all of the above.
How do we fix this? I don’t agree with those who advocate for censorship, a thought police or the equivalent of reeducation camps(Those people are beyond help). Nevertheless, I have not heard a sensible solution from any politician, government agency or private organization to this very serious issue.
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Well in that particular case there was an actual chance of one of them or their friends/family ending up there.
That was more real and genuine IMO.
Now? Not so much.
As usual, you seize on a single word to counter a larger point of view to fit your worldview. I went back and edited my post. I should have never said parochial, as it was absolutely the wrong word. It has been demonstrated by legions of well-educated scientists and physicians that the approach of the government was wrong and dangerous. The government officials were (and continue to be purveyors of information.
The government has proven that it is incapable of functioning in the manner you propose, especially when megalomaniacs like Fauci and Collins are making the decisions. You must be a big fan of Orwell. Well educated and well-informed scientists and physicians should have been (and should always be) allowed to speak on important topics of science and medicine instead allowing of a couple of compromised and bought bureaucrats who were more interested in protecting their own legacies and interests instead of the general public to decide what information the public should receive.
Utopian view of the way universities should be from a professor of epidemiology at University College London:
Interesting thought on self-proclaimed free speech absolutists- do they walk the walk?
Interesting thought on self-proclaimed free speech absolutists- do they walk the walk?
No one told you, Mildone is a strategic war expert. Solo “surgical strikes” to win a war lol
What a maroon.
If that fat racist black woman was White and said black people should be eliminated do you really believe Rutgers would have supported her under the guise of “free speech”? You are crazy if you believe that.
you earned the 'moron button' so great job
it's selective application
that said, freedom of thought and opinion needs to be protected but that doesn't give carte blanche to do what we have been seeing. Adults need to take charge
Good one. You can tell your family about your big win today.
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