Primarily running offenses slowly becoming less effective?

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

We know that running the ball will never go out of style in HS football. BUT I think now more than ever talent is spread out among more schools than ever. Its been a while since we have seen a power running offense dominate Illinois landscape. I think with all these spread offenses, they give you MORE margin for error. With power running, you need to be bigger, more talented, no margin for error, and have to start out in front.

IMO I think there is less room for error in these run only offenses. In these spread offenses you can pick and chose your match ups, one on one and you have a lot more room for error. Also I think more talented players are choosing to go to school who run more of a modern offense. Example Lees whole family went to Caramel, now he is killing it in the spread at Libertyville. I think teams like MC,GW, and CG will always have success as long as they keep bringing in the talent.

Games that come to mind are JCA's recent playoff runs vs teams like Montini/Naz. Geneseo last year played vs Montini. And a majority of teams 5A - 8A who made it to state the last few years and this year run the spread. PC/LA success in recent years.

Im not saying you cant run the ball look at naz I dont think they threw a pass last weekend, but they run the offense out of the spread.

Im NOT saying primary running offenses cant be successful, but you dont have that much room for error when teams like Marist can put up 60 points at any time. In these running offenses, you cant turn the ball over, its hard to comeback from behind, must be more talented/bigger, and just have less room for error.

My main points
-Running offense can still have success
-But they have less margin for error
-Players choosing modern offense schools to attend
-Talent is much more spread out among different high schools
-Spread offenses allows for more margin of error and less talented teams to succeed.

 

[BretEpic]

Frank Lenti says Hola

 

[capnbillhitters]

• Spread is easier to keep parents happy that want to see their kid show his skills.
• Spread has a lot of difficulty against very good attacking defenses
• Spread works poorly when trying to slow down and eat the clock.
• Spread is difficult in bad weather conditions.
• Spread o linemen never seem as imposing as they always seem to be standing around waiting for the snap

As a GW fan, I love that so many teams have deployed the spread. Where is sportsmom when we need her.

Give me ground and pound with a sprinkle of a wrinkle anyday

 

[godfthr53]

• Spread is easier to keep parents happy that want to see their kid show his skills.
• Spread has a lot of difficulty against very good attacking defenses
• Spread works poorly when trying to slow down and eat the clock.
• Spread is difficult in bad weather conditions.
• Spread o linemen never seem as imposing as they always seem to be standing around waiting for the snap

As a GW fan, I love that so many teams have deployed the spread. Where is sportsmom when we need her.

Give me ground and pound with a sprinkle of a wrinkle anyday

Really? you should ask some of Naz opponents last year if the 4 D1 lineman were imposing.

 

[capnbillhitters]

Really? you should ask some of Naz opponents last year if the 4 D1 lineman were imposing.

How about "less imposing." And maybe I should clarify that the "spread" I am talking about is the "everybody stand on the LOS and look back at the coaches who will call in crazy plays and we always run in shotgun formation"

GW has played against plenty of D1 o linemen. The ones that tend to strike fear, are the ones that break a huddle and come to the LOS with purpose (Matt Allen comes to mind). The ones who stroll around and find their spot on the line and with hands on hips look over to the sideline for their call and never put their hand on the ground, always seems less effective.

If GW had Auburn's o line, Brodner might gain 3,000 yards. Those guys are massive and just juniors. But they never put their hand on the ground, and thus, never seem to explode at you even in run situations so our smaller faster LBs never had a problem getting around them.

And as for Naz, if you assemble the best group of athletes in the state, you can run any offense you please.

 

[psspfan]

The spread at Montini keeps more than parents happy. See State Championships prior to running spread and State Championships since....

 

[capnbillhitters]

The spread at Montini keeps more than parents happy. See State Championships prior to running spread and State Championships since....

exactly!

A great offense when you have a destination school that needs folks excited about coming. If you have a ton of talent, you will steam roll folks either way.

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

Frank Lenti says Hola

I stated teams MC, GW, and CG will be fine as long as the talent keeps coming in. And running the ball will never go away. But just look at the number of spread offenses down in Dekalb this weekend compared to primarily running teams.

 

[capnbillhitters]

I stated teams MC, GW, and CG will be fine as long as the talent keeps coming in. And running the ball will never go away. But just look at the number of spread offenses down in Dekalb this weekend compared to primarily running teams.

and my point was GW and C-G got where they were with, often times less talent than their opponents.

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

and my point was GW and C-G got where they were with, often times less talent than their opponents.

Yeah with players like Chris Watt, Trevor Ruhland, Brodner, etc they really do more with less throughout the years...

 

[psspfan]

interesting. I always presumed teams went to the spread because they didn't have big linemen to blow people off the ball, ie....less talent. each team runs an offense suited to their strengths, the notion that spread versus double wing, or t-option has more or less talent makes no sense to me. Yes, a QB with a throwing arm and a speedster receiver may seek out spread offense to show their stuff. but I think teams originally went to spread, to literally spread the field due to lack of talent.

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

interesting. I always presumed teams went to the spread because they didn't have big linemen to blow people off the ball, ie....less talent. each team runs an offense suited to their strengths, the notion that spread versus double wing, or t-option has more or less talent makes no sense to me. Yes, a QB with a throwing arm and a speedster receiver may seek out spread offense to show their stuff. but I think teams originally went to spread, to literally spread the field due to lack of talent.

That is true.

 

[BretEpic]

and my point was GW and C-G got where they were with, often times less talent than their opponents.

GW has never, ever, been short on talent. Ever... ever.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

We know that running the ball will never go out of style in HS football. BUT I think now more than ever talent is spread out among more schools than ever. Its been a while since we have seen a power running offense dominate Illinois landscape.

Phillips threw the ball once and rushed for about 350 yds last weekend during its win over Marengo.

There's a big difference between small and large school football in terms of what they can do effectively. Watch the 1A and 2A title games this Friday and compare the run vs. pass mix in those games to what you will see in the 8A game.

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

Phillips threw the ball once and rushed for about 350 yds last weekend during its win over Marengo.

There's a big difference between small and large school football in terms of what they can do effectively. Watch the 1A and 2A title games this Friday and compare the run vs. pass mix in those games to what you will see in the 8A game.

not going to lie I don't pay attention at all to anything lower than 5A football, besides checking up on Phillips. Like I said in previous post, Naz didn't throw 1 pass last week, but all their runs came out of the spread. My main point, to be more clear is that Wing-t or heavy running formations with 10 guys in the box are slowly trending away in the higher classes.

 

[jwarigaku]

West,

You're wrong on both counts about Naz last week. Passes were thrown at the end of 1st quarter, either 3 or 4. Julian's first TD run from the 1 came out of Power not spread and that wasn't the only time it was run.

not going to lie I don't pay attention at all to anything lower than 5A football, besides checking up on Phillips. Like I said in previous post, Naz didn't throw 1 pass last week, but all their runs came out of the spread. My main point, to be more clear is that Wing-t or heavy running formations with 10 guys in the box are slowly trending away in the higher classes.

 

[jwarigaku]

Really? That's an interesting take for sure.

interesting. I always presumed teams went to the spread because they didn't have big linemen to blow people off the ball, ie....less talent. each team runs an offense suited to their strengths, the notion that spread versus double wing, or t-option has more or less talent makes no sense to me. Yes, a QB with a throwing arm and a speedster receiver may seek out spread offense to show their stuff. but I think teams originally went to spread, to literally spread the field due to lack of talent.

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

West,

You're wrong on both counts about Naz last week. Passes were thrown at the end of 1st quarter, either 3 or 4. Julian's first TD run from the 1 came out of Power not spread and that wasn't the only time it was run.

My mistake, must have missed it.

 

[mchsalumni]

Really? That's an interesting take for sure.

Very accurate. The spread was a way for teams with smaller linemen to get the ball on the edge quickly and get their backs and receivers in space, taking the ball outside the tackles. It's counter to running the triple or a form of the option to get teams leaning and using misdirection to throw off a D, but accomplishes the same thing, playing keep away.

 

[capnbillhitters]

GW has never, ever, been short on talent. Ever... ever.

I included CG with GW in that statement. My comment was driven by the recurring theme I heard from our players Saturday night..."we were amazed that we finally got to play a team that was smaller than us." That says something.

C-G made it to the semis with a fairly one dimensional offense and a stout, limit the big plays defense. If we lined up Auburn next to C-G and laid out all the measurables (speed, size, depth), you would say Auburn beats C-G by four touchdowns. After playing both, I think I would take C-G. Nothing against Auburn, but C-Gs style of play gets into your grill and forces you to make quicker decisions.

If I had 4 D1 OL and IKM and Love running for me, I could run any style I wanted, and I get why everyone loves a track meet.

As for GW specifically, it seems to come down to the philosophy of putting as many, if not more, of your studs on defense. Leaving this year's kids out of it, a guy like Hayden Carlson comes to mind. Other than his 1-2 go routes a game, he never played offense.

 

[Secondo1]

Could not agree more. I stated last week that JCA will NEVER win another championship using the offense they have been using since Gordie in the 50's.. They have proven this point in the last 8 years. They had incredible running backs and linemen, but when the other team is putting 11 in the box, the running game is going no where. The scheme for JCA needs to change, but it never will. But, I'm sure Woody Hayes is smiling down on them!

 

[jwarigaku]

You all think so one dimensionally about the spread and just assume pass heavy. Go read about Tubby Raymond and his use of the Wing-T. Some years pass heavy, some years run heavy, other years balanced. JCA could Morph into this and if they attract the same athletes...look out!

Very accurate. The spread was a way for teams with smaller linemen to get the ball on the edge quickly and get their backs and receivers in space, taking the ball outside the tackles. It's counter to running the triple or a form of the option to get teams leaning and using misdirection to throw off a D, but accomplishes the same thing, playing keep away.

 

[mchsalumni]

You all think so one dimensionally about the spread and just assume pass heavy. Go read about Tubby Raymond and his use of the Wing-T. Some years pass heavy, some years run heavy, other years balanced. JCA could Morph into this and if they attract the same athletes...look out!

It's not thinking one dimensional, it's reality. No one said you can't run out of the spread, it's used as misdirection. Look at Air Force. They run the triple and their passing stats are unreal. You are reading too much into a quick synopsis.

 

[pjjp]

Here's my two cents....it allows a team to flourish with a different type of athlete. I've seen a number of teams run the spread with shall we say less than dynamic athletes, who do not have much success with it. However, if you have guys who are fast an elusive, the spread can isolate those athletes in space and be very successful. In the middle classes, Naz and Montini have shown that you can use those same athletes on defense with great effectiveness. In addition to their value in pass coverage, you can walk them up to the LOS and allow them to use their speed and quickness to get in running lanes on run blitzes etc. You can use this to negate another team's advantage in the trenches. Those same athletes allow the defense to recover quickly and get back in pass coverage.

I say maximize what you have. The best coaches do that. Depends on the type of athlete you have in the program. Of course, the better the athlete....the better the scheme.

 

[jwarigaku]

I suppose I could be, but to pretend talent isn't flocking to teams that have adopted the spread and are successful with it is just silly. Sure people still go to the traditional power run teams but they tend to be having harder times. Before this turns into another private/public debate, people are moving to both programs that are successful. examples are Montini and Rochester.

It's not thinking one dimensional, it's reality. No one said you can't run out of the spread, it's used as misdirection. Look at Air Force. They run the triple and their passing stats are unreal. You are reading too much into a quick synopsis.

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

Could not agree more. I stated last week that JCA will NEVER win another championship using the offense they have been using since Gordie in the 50's.. They have proven this point in the last 8 years. They had incredible running backs and linemen, but when the other team is putting 11 in the box, the running game is going no where. The scheme for JCA needs to change, but it never will. But, I'm sure Woody Hayes is smiling down on them!

I wish they would have aired out more with Earl. I thought he was very very underrated as a passer, I would have liked to see what he would have looked like under a spread attack for 4 years.

 

[pjjp]

Could not agree more. I stated last week that JCA will NEVER win another championship using the offense they have been using since Gordie in the 50's.. They have proven this point in the last 8 years. They had incredible running backs and linemen, but when the other team is putting 11 in the box, the running game is going no where. The scheme for JCA needs to change, but it never will. But, I'm sure Woody Hayes is smiling down on them!

There is some truth to what you say, but consider one other element. There are many, but think about this one thing: one-year transfers.

2009 Montini over JCA by 1....do they win without Campanella (1-year transfer from Driscoll)?
2011 Montini over JCA by 35....yes, 35 is....um... a lot. But, JCA was up at half. Did John Rhode and Jaleel Johnson contribute to that win? John Rhode is starting at QB for St. Xavier. Jaleel Johnson is starting at DT for undefeated Iowa. Did they help Montini in that game?
2013 Montini over JCA by 1.....did LB Nial Sykes contribute to the win? He sure helped on defense. I do believe he scored the winning 2-point conversion as well. Oh...btw....he's a D1 LB at Indiana.
2014 Naz over JCA by 3....did Nolan Dean contribute to the victory? After all, he did rush for over 2,000 yards. Didn't he play defense as well? Oh...btw....he's at NIU playing TB.

You know what can really help a scheme? A stud, 1-year transfer added to the mix.

Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth about this being a finger-pointing, accusatory post, I'm not making any accusations. Merely pointing out that Montini and Naz have been helped by the one-year transfer against that archaic-schemed JCA. Secondo....you want to look at what the biggest difference currently is between JCA and these two schools? They work harder at bringing talent into their program. Transfers are just part of the equation. They also do more at the grade school level.

Look at Racki. How long has he been at Naz? Did he suddenly become that much better of a coach in the last two years? Or....did he up his game in acquiring talent? Why bring in a youth football coach, who you may have seen mentioned on this board, and put him on the staff? Is it for his football acumen? Maybe....but do you think it might be to gain access to the pipeline of talent he allegedly has access to? Again....no finger pointing.....they do much more to bring talent into the program than JCA.

Where you at Bones? I'm starting to sound like you. LOL

 

[BretEpic]

It's not thinking one dimensional, it's reality. No one said you can't run out of the spread, it's used as misdirection. Look at Air Force. They run the triple and their passing stats are unreal. You are reading too much into a quick synopsis.

Um... that was one game. AFA ranks 122nd nationally in passing yards per game. Unreal notsomuch

 

[BretEpic]

There is some truth to what you say, but consider one other element. There are many, but think about this one thing: one-year transfers.

2009 Montini over JCA by 1....do they win without Campanella (1-year transfer from Driscoll)?
2011 Montini over JCA by 35....yes, 35 is....um... a lot. But, JCA was up at half. Did John Rhode and Jaleel Johnson contribute to that win? John Rhode is starting at QB for St. Xavier. Jaleel Johnson is starting at DT for undefeated Iowa. Did they help Montini in that game?
2013 Montini over JCA by 1.....did LB Nial Sykes contribute to the win? He sure helped on defense. I do believe he scored the winning 2-point conversion as well. Oh...btw....he's a D1 LB at Indiana.
2014 Naz over JCA by 3....did Nolan Dean contribute to the victory? After all, he did rush for over 2,000 yards. Didn't he play defense as well? Oh...btw....he's at NIU playing TB.

You know what can really help a scheme? A stud, 1-year transfer added to the mix.

Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth about this being a finger-pointing, accusatory post, I'm not making any accusations. Merely pointing out that Montini and Naz have been helped by the one-year transfer against that archaic-schemed JCA. Secondo....you want to look at what the biggest difference currently is between JCA and these two schools? They work harder at bringing talent into their program. Transfers are just part of the equation. They also do more at the grade school level.

Look at Racki. How long has he been at Naz? Did he suddenly become that much better of a coach in the last two years? Or....did he up his game in acquiring talent? Why bring in a youth football coach, who you may have seen mentioned on this board, and put him on the staff? Is it for his football acumen? Maybe....but do you think it might be to gain access to the pipeline of talent he allegedly has access to? Again....no finger pointing.....they do much more to bring talent into the program than JCA.

Where you at Bones? I'm starting to sound like you. LOL

That's some bold finger pointing.

 

[JCHillmen]

Just looked at the box scores on the IHSA site from the last 6 seasons worth of 7A and 8A championship games. 24 teams competed in those games. Here is what I found.....

Teams with 10 completions or less in those championship games......17/24
Teams with 15 pass attempts or fewer.........10/24
Teams with under 100 yards passing.........9/24
Teams with under 150 yards passing.........17/24

These include some smash mouth games with teams like MC and LZ just slugging it out. Bottom line, you are right, running is not going out of style. As you get higher in class, you obviously benefit by diversifying a tad more, but you don't need to be Air Coryell to win. The success of teams like MC, LZ, GBW, Cary-Grove, etc. more than prove that.

And for every QB or WR that chooses to go to a wide open passing attack, there is an 8th grader RB or OL much preferring the highlight film that a ground and pound system will provide them in 3-4 years.

 

[jwarigaku]

PJJP,

3 power 5 running backs in the backfield, stud linemen, a D1 walkon QB, all at JCA together and I'm certain I'm missing guys, and you want everyone to believe it was the one year transfers that caused the losses? I have a ton of respect for JCA players, coaches, and fans so this line of reason really surprises me. The rest I won't even address.

There is some truth to what you say, but consider one other element. There are many, but think about this one thing: one-year transfers.

2009 Montini over JCA by 1....do they win without Campanella (1-year transfer from Driscoll)?
2011 Montini over JCA by 35....yes, 35 is....um... a lot. But, JCA was up at half. Did John Rhode and Jaleel Johnson contribute to that win? John Rhode is starting at QB for St. Xavier. Jaleel Johnson is starting at DT for undefeated Iowa. Did they help Montini in that game?
2013 Montini over JCA by 1.....did LB Nial Sykes contribute to the win? He sure helped on defense. I do believe he scored the winning 2-point conversion as well. Oh...btw....he's a D1 LB at Indiana.
2014 Naz over JCA by 3....did Nolan Dean contribute to the victory? After all, he did rush for over 2,000 yards. Didn't he play defense as well? Oh...btw....he's at NIU playing TB.

You know what can really help a scheme? A stud, 1-year transfer added to the mix.

Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth about this being a finger-pointing, accusatory post, I'm not making any accusations. Merely pointing out that Montini and Naz have been helped by the one-year transfer against that archaic-schemed JCA. Secondo....you want to look at what the biggest difference currently is between JCA and these two schools? They work harder at bringing talent into their program. Transfers are just part of the equation. They also do more at the grade school level.

Look at Racki. How long has he been at Naz? Did he suddenly become that much better of a coach in the last two years? Or....did he up his game in acquiring talent? Why bring in a youth football coach, who you may have seen mentioned on this board, and put him on the staff? Is it for his football acumen? Maybe....but do you think it might be to gain access to the pipeline of talent he allegedly has access to? Again....no finger pointing.....they do much more to bring talent into the program than JCA.

Where you at Bones? I'm starting to sound like you. LOL

 

[BretEpic]

PJJP,

3 power 5 running backs in the backfield, stud linemen, a D1 walkon QB, and I'm certain I'm missing guys, and you want everyone to believe it was the one year transfers? I have a ton of respect for JCA players, coaches, and fans so this line of reason really surprises me. The rest I won't even address.

Jonah didn't walkon. He's at UWW. Anyhow, point is I could have looked decent in that backfield.

 

[SilverHelmets]

GW has never, ever, been short on talent. Ever... ever.

The mid 90s to the mid 200s they were very short on talent and success. Then all these giant linemen started showing up.

 

[CoachHansen05]

It has been alluded to but not explicitly said that there are different forms of "The Spread." Your definition may not be the same as mine. Style of offense generally starts with what the linemen can (or can't) do. Any offense, as many have mentioned, can (and should) be adapted to meet the strengths of the players. "Spread Offense" is too general a term anymore. Teams spread you out to run it. Teams spread you out to throw it. Teams spread you out to do both with balanced effectiveness. If you have 4-5 studs up front, then you can run any offense you want to. The same is not the case if you have 4-5 stud skill guys with little talent to block for them. The one thing most spread offenses have in common is the desire to get the ball to talented skill players in space and force the defense to tackle. This seems to be the answer when a team has limited talent up front.

 

[jwarigaku]

Epic,

I was talking about JCA. Sorry for the confusion.

Jonah didn't walkon. He's at UWW. Anyhow, point is I could have looked decent in that backfield.

 

[jwarigaku]

PJJP,

Are you referring to Coach Weiss?! I hear he's coaching in the Under Armor youth and High School all Star Bowls in January. I guess they think he's a pretty good coach too.

Why bring in a youth football coach, who you may have seen mentioned on this board, and put him on the staff? Is it for his football acumen?

Where you at Bones? I'm starting to sound like you. LOL

 

[mchsalumni]

Um... that was one game. AFA ranks 122nd nationally in passing yards per game. Unreal notsomuch

Look at their receiver stats. Average yard per catch for their top 3-4 receivers. They effectively use the run to setup the pass, much the way the pass sets up the run in the spread. Not all the time, but it happens.

 

[pjjp]

And for every QB or WR that chooses to go to a wide open passing attack, there is an 8th grader RB or OL much preferring the highlight film that a ground and pound system will provide them in 3-4 years.

That's a good point. Poll any O-lineman. What would they rather do.....pass or run block?

IMO, the schematic disadvantage JCA had until the last couple of years was on defense. If you are going to run a ball-control offense, you need a good defense. They did not have that prior to the coaching change on D. Some have mentioned MC in this thread. MC's veer is obviously a ball control offense. They will not be successful as a team, unless they have a good defense. The bane of the ball control, run-based offense is getting behind. You need a solid defense to avoid getting down too much. MC almost always has a solid defense.

 

[Secondo1]

There is some truth to what you say, but consider one other element. There are many, but think about this one thing: one-year transfers.

2009 Montini over JCA by 1....do they win without Campanella (1-year transfer from Driscoll)?
2011 Montini over JCA by 35....yes, 35 is....um... a lot. But, JCA was up at half. Did John Rhode and Jaleel Johnson contribute to that win? John Rhode is starting at QB for St. Xavier. Jaleel Johnson is starting at DT for undefeated Iowa. Did they help Montini in that game?
2013 Montini over JCA by 1.....did LB Nial Sykes contribute to the win? He sure helped on defense. I do believe he scored the winning 2-point conversion as well. Oh...btw....he's a D1 LB at Indiana.
2014 Naz over JCA by 3....did Nolan Dean contribute to the victory? After all, he did rush for over 2,000 yards. Didn't he play defense as well? Oh...btw....he's at NIU playing TB.

You know what can really help a scheme? A stud, 1-year transfer added to the mix.

Before anyone starts foaming at the mouth about this being a finger-pointing, accusatory post, I'm not making any accusations. Merely pointing out that Montini and Naz have been helped by the one-year transfer against that archaic-schemed JCA. Secondo....you want to look at what the biggest difference currently is between JCA and these two schools? They work harder at bringing talent into their program. Transfers are just part of the equation. They also do more at the grade school level.


And look at the schemes they run compared to JCA...that is why they won.

Look at Racki. How long has he been at Naz? Did he suddenly become that much better of a coach in the last two years? Or....did he up his game in acquiring talent? Why bring in a youth football coach, who you may have seen mentioned on this board, and put him on the staff? Is it for his football acumen? Maybe....but do you think it might be to gain access to the pipeline of talent he allegedly has access to? Again....no finger pointing.....they do much more to bring talent into the program than JCA.

Where you at Bones? I'm starting to sound like you. LOL

 

[WestSuburbanCatholicConference]

I believe Naz also had 3 transfer during the 2007-08 season when they made the quarter finals, I think HC/MC all were good. One of the transfer family member became a coach then. I think it's easier to point at Montini because they have won, you can go back 20 years and see everywhere when kids started at one school and transfered to a better program, private to public and public to private, and yeah maybe it's was for football reason, but it's easier to hate on Montini because they have won a large number of championship in a short span during this span. Am I finger pointing? maybe, but I think all good programs have a finger to point wether its a public school with pop warner whose coaching staff makes a pipeline for a public school team and they run the exact same offense since 3rd grade. I know in the early 2000 a rival ESCC player had one of their best players transfer to JCA during that time, he started, forgot if they won, but if they did it would be very similair to what Montini did. But I do understand the frustration because it seams now that it is a focal point strategy in recruting.