Real Question - let’s say we decide to move on…

[kwhurs01]

I know we have an 8M buyout. My question is do we stop paying coaches salary that day or do we have to pay remainder of this season plus buyout?

Reasoning is that if buyout goes down 2M at year end but we’d pay him ~1.8M for 2nd half of season. So we’d really only be out an additional 200k.

Thanks in advance.

 

[davecmc]

But you’d pick upa whole new HC contract, so it’s not that straightforward

 

[kwhurs01]

You’d just have an assistant finish right? Maybe a small bump? I’m more asking if we have to pay the 2nd half of CKPs salary if we said goodbye tomorrow.

 

[kwhurs01]

@the artist FKA zipp
Zipp I thought you might know. Serious question on my part. If we fire do we pay remaining salary for that year?

 

[PushupMan]

There’s a contract, including termination clauses, and then there are the negotiations that almost certainly are occurring as we speak that will determine what gets paid….

What’s in the contract in general terms is, if terminated without cause, CKP gets $2 million per year for the rest of the contract. That’s $1.35 million per year less than what he gets paid currently. What’s not completely clear is whether that change in salary is effective immediately, or if it takes effect beginning in April of the year following his dismissal. I tend to believe it’s the latter - we can fire him now, but we still have to pay him $279k per month until April, when his paycheck is reduced to $160K per month. And that will continue until March 31, 2028.

As mentioned in another thread, there’s also the question of incentive bonuses (in the neighborhood of $850k annually) that are built into the contract. By firing him at 4-6 this year, you are depriving him of the opportunity to win any of those awards this year and in any subsequent years. Some of those incentives are: qualify for the NCAAT, and to make the R32, S16, E8, F4, F2 and championship. All of those achievements, as well as ACC regular season and conference championship, and various coach of the year awards are incentivized in the contract. All of those would be payable for this year by firing him before the end of the regular season.

So there is a very real benefit, to the tune of $850k, to allowing him to finish this season, because there is no way in hell that he achieves any of those incentive bonuses, at which point, we will have saved $850K.

 

[beantowncard]

Coaching must be the only profession where firing for cause does not include poor performance.

 

[kwhurs01]

Gracias senores.

 

[Cardiac Red]

Coaching must be the only profession where firing for cause does not include poor performance.

Agree. I'm not against having buyout clauses in a contract but they should be tied to a performance clause. You shouldn't be able to hold a school hostage when you're under performing or expect a school to pay you as much to get rid of you as they pay you to coach and win. Its tge schools fault though I guess..

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

I haven’t read Payne’s contract in detail recently. The typical buyout for termination without cause is salary continuation until the gross amount is attained.

If Payne’s calls for a lesser annual amount, divide that number into the total, and that’s how long he will be paid (years and months).

Unless he negotiates for a lower amount in a lump sum, I expect Payne to get the full amount. No reason otherwise for him to negotiate or accept a lower amount than what’s in his contract…

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

@the artist FKA zipp
Zipp I thought you might know. Serious question on my part. If we fire do we pay remaining salary for that year?

I think the buyout terms are triggered immediately, i.e., at month’s end…

 

[Thecycle27]

He isn’t going negotiate anything unless he violated any part of the contract. That why you let it play out unless the players want him gone. I tend to agree coaches contracts have to start moving toward more incentive based. I don’t care if they make 8-10M a year if they earned it. The issue is when they are making 3M with this kind of result and there is nothing you can do.

They are getting rid of Petrino and Mack next year $4m I believe. All the buyouts total $38m.

 

[Cardiac Red]

He isn’t going negotiate anything unless he violated any part of the contract.

He's embarrassing the university with his public comments and failing miserably as a coach. How much more cause do they need..

I would like to see a list of things that would be considered "with" cause..

 

[UofLouisville]

Coaching must be the only profession where firing for cause does not include poor performance.

Golden parachutes are all the rage. No incentive to perform when your a 90 year old 1st time head coach and no way to lose money unless you commit a felony.

 

[earsky]

He's embarrassing the university with his public comments

This part is subjective

failing miserably as a coach.

This part is objective but may not fall under the terms of ' cause ' -depends on how the contract is worded.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

Simply put, “cause” in one of these contracts is not what posters here think it means. It’s not for being a bad coach…

 

[BPGhost]

Simply put, “cause” in one of these contracts is not what posters here think it means. It’s not for being a bad coach…

And yet, that’s precisely the rationale you espoused for why Tyra should have not paid Petrino’s buyout when he got fired.

Thanks for putting to rest any sort of sincerity in those thoughts. Just another way for you to hate on anyone who arrived post Jurich.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

And yet, that’s precisely the rationale you espoused for why Tyra should have not paid Petrino’s buyout when he got fired.

Thanks for putting to rest any sort of sincerity in those thoughts. Just another way for you to hate on anyone who arrived post Jurich.

Not true. I was simply hopping on the apparently misguided argument from Petrino haters that he wasn't doing important parts of his job, not doing them poorly.

And if you thought that, among others, you should have lobbied for his buyout to be withheld. But your guy paid it in full. He let you down and spent millions...

 

[2330859]

At this point in time, UL needs to terminate Payne “with cause”; let Kenny figure out his own justification for challenging UL. We do not have the money to pay his buyout, so make Kenny go through the court system to defend his performance.

 

[BPGhost]

Not true. I was simply hopping on the apparently misguided argument from Petrino haters that he wasn't doing important parts of his job, not doing them poorly.

And if you thought that, among others, you should have lobbied for his buyout to be withheld. But your guy paid it in full. He let you down and spent millions...

I didn’t think that - and said on many occasions that if there were no “for cause” reasons, then he would legally be due the millions that Jurich so inexplicably guaranteed him in the contract they agreed to. So, if there was any letting down of the fans, it was done by Jurich when he agreed to rehire a guy who, was not in demand by any other P5 program, and contractually obligate UofL to pay him millions to get rid of him.

That was your guy and he let us all down with his, list of names in his pocket, one man search committee, lone wolf style. Rather than acknowledge that plain fact, you - no one else, just you - disingenuously attempted to hang that terrible contract around Tyra’s neck by suggesting that fulfilling the terms of Jurich’s contract, he - not Jurich - was to blame.

That you’re now trying hide behind others when it was only you beating the drum of that “misguided argument”, shows once again your continued pattern of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Thecycle27]

It depends on the contract language.

If Louisville had anything on KP we will know. There are only 3 outcomes

1) fired with cause slam dunk screw up but if that was the case he would already be gone.
2) fired and negotiated settlement. Not a slam dunk for cause but grey area that both parties agreed to settle instead of court. There is some issues the whole adidas issue KD issue and lying to the public.
3)fired full contact nothing done wrong that violated contract.

We will see.

 

[Thecycle27]

I didn’t think that - and said on many occasions that if there were no “for cause” reasons, then he would legally be due the millions that Jurich so inexplicably guaranteed him in the contract they agreed to. So, if there was any letting down of the fans, it was done by Jurich when he agreed to rehire a guy who, was not in demand by any other P5 program, and contractually obligate UofL to pay him millions to get rid of him.

That was your guy and he let us all down with his, list of names in his pocket, one man search committee, lone wolf style. Rather than acknowledge that plain fact, you - no one else, just you - disingenuously attempted to hang that terrible contract around Tyra’s neck by suggesting that fulfilling the terms of Jurich’s contract, he - not Jurich - was to blame.

That you’re now trying hide behind others when it was only you beating the drum of that “misguided argument”, shows once again your continued pattern of intellectual dishonesty.

They was zero reason to extend him because he was bidding against himself. Plus he knew the waters were getting turbulent at the University. He was protecting Petrino in the event he got fired.

 

[BPGhost]

They was zero reason to extend him because he was bidding against himself. Plus he knew the waters were getting turbulent at the University. He was protecting Petrino in the event he got fired.

I agree. I’ll just never understand why.

 

[Thecycle27]

I think it could have been as simple as he didn’t envision Petrino failing.

 

[BPGhost]

I think it could have been as simple as he didn’t envision Petrino failing.

If so, considering Petrino’s abrupt and publicly embarrassing departure from 2 of his previous 3 HC jobs - that would constitute AD malpractice by Jurich.

Plus - there’s no need for a huge buyout if he believed he wouldn’t fail.

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood_rivals307205]

I really don't mind the buy-out in Petrino's contract. It's easy to pick it apart after it's all over.

But the program was rolling and if he kept producing T10 teams an SEC program was going to come calling and outbid the Cards for his services. That buyout amount was probably a standard for T20 HCs and he most certainly was producing that at the time of the contract creation.

That said, as of right now Payne has not done anything to lose his buyout. Some of these posts are just emotional. He deserves his buyout. Just because he didn't win at all, and wasn't good at PR, you don't get to demand $ back. It's a rather ridiculous idea, please don't be offended by this post.

I'll add one more thing. I know this is delicate and a very intense piece of this, and I'm not weighing in on it deeply but....

A political activist's (i.e - Payne supporter) case to claim foul gets reduced if the guy is walking with $8M or whatever it is. If you try to legally fight a guy for a couple million it's really a bad look.

If you have concrete evidence about a fight with a player you need multiple eye-witnesses willing to testify under oath for you, and if that was really a thing I believe those eye-witnesses would have already contacted authorities. If something with this changes that is a game changer but it allegedly happened awhile ago and nothing came of it.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

I didn’t think that - and said on many occasions that if there were no “for cause” reasons, then he would legally be due the millions that Jurich so inexplicably guaranteed him in the contract they agreed to. So, if there was any letting down of the fans, it was done by Jurich when he agreed to rehire a guy who, was not in demand by any other P5 program, and contractually obligate UofL to pay him millions to get rid of him.

That was your guy and he let us all down with his, list of names in his pocket, one man search committee, lone wolf style. Rather than acknowledge that plain fact, you - no one else, just you - disingenuously attempted to hang that terrible contract around Tyra’s neck by suggesting that fulfilling the terms of Jurich’s contract, he - not Jurich - was to blame.

That you’re now trying hide behind others when it was only you beating the drum of that “misguided argument”, shows once again your continued pattern of intellectual dishonesty.

Petrino 2.0 was 29-14 under Jurich. All of that was in a P5 conference.

And that win % is good enough for #4 among U of L coaches over at least 20 games.

2.0 was a fine hire until your boy, Tyra came along...

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

At this point in time, UL needs to terminate Payne “with cause”; let Kenny figure out his own justification for challenging UL. We do not have the money to pay his buyout, so make Kenny go through the court system to defend his performance.

Anything can be tried, but that's a longshot. And U of L will look bad in the process.

Nobody outside the AA community blames U of L for firing Payne without cause...

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

They was zero reason to extend him because he was bidding against himself...

You don't know that in 2016, and no one said that. It's revisionist history...

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

If so, considering Petrino’s abrupt and publicly embarrassing departure from 2 of his previous 3 HC jobs - that would constitute AD malpractice by Jurich.

Plus - there’s no need for a huge buyout if he believed he wouldn’t fail.

Those three departures...

Louisville and the Falcons... No buyouts since they were voluntary.

Arkansas... No buyout because he violated terms in his contract.

BTW Petrino had an $18 million buyout in his Arkansas contract? "Who was competing for him?"

So why would anyone be afraid of putting a big buyout in Petrino's contract? As of 2014, they never got exercised...

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

I really don't mind the buy-out in Petrino's contract. It's easy to pick it apart after it's all over.

But the program was rolling and if he kept producing T10 teams an SEC program was going to come calling and outbid the Cards for his services. That buyout amount was probably a standard for T20 HCs and he most certainly was producing that at the time of the contract creation.

That said, as of right now Payne has not done anything to lose his buyout. Some of these posts are just emotional. He deserves his buyout. Just because he didn't win at all, and wasn't good at PR, you don't get to demand $ back. It's a rather ridiculous idea, please don't be offended by this post.

I'll add one more thing. I know this is delicate and a very intense piece of this, and I'm not weighing in on it deeply but....

A political activist's (i.e - Payne supporter) case to claim foul gets reduced if the guy is walking with $8M or whatever it is. If you try to legally fight a guy for a couple million it's really a bad look.

If you have concrete evidence about a fight with a player you need multiple eye-witnesses willing to testify under oath for you, and if that was really a thing I believe those eye-witnesses would have already contacted authorities. If something with this changes that is a game changer but it allegedly happened awhile ago and nothing came of it.

The old hop is back!!...

 

[RealStateBird]

This entire thread proves the colossal mistake it was to hire KP 🫤

 

[beantowncard]

I haven’t read Payne’s contract in detail recently. The typical buyout for termination without cause is salary continuation until the gross amount is attained.

If Payne’s calls for a lesser annual amount, divide that number into the total, and that’s how long he will be paid (years and months).

Unless he negotiates for a lower amount in a lump sum, I expect Payne to get the full amount. No reason otherwise for him to negotiate or accept a lower amount than what’s in his contract…

Why didn’t you think that reasoning applied to Bobby?

 

[BPGhost]

Petrino 2.0 was 29-14 under Jurich. All of that was in a P5 conference.

And that win % is good enough for #4 among U of L coaches over at least 20 games.

2.0 was a fine hire until your boy, Tyra came along...

Lol - so now, not only is Tyra responsible for costing UofL millions (due to honoring the contract Jurich’s saddled him with) but now, somehow Tyra is responsible for Petrino’s implosion.

That’s a bit like saying that it was the swimming pool’s fault for being where it was, when you shoved that old lady into it.

 

[BPGhost]

Those three departures...

Louisville and the Falcons... No buyouts since they were voluntary.

Arkansas... No buyout because he violated terms in his contract.

BTW Petrino had an $18 million buyout in his Arkansas contract? "Who was competing for him?"

So why would anyone be afraid of putting a big buyout in Petrino's contract? As of 2014, they never got exercised...

The point was - he failed spectacularly at two of his previous three jobs. One, cost him any future opportunity to coach in the NFL and the other was a national scandal.

Based on that track record, he shouldn’t have any leverage in contract negotiations with Jurich but your idol, unnecessarily and unilaterally, put UofL in a multimillion dollar box because Jurich, “looked into his eyes and believed him when he said that he was a changed man.”

Your idol got played - plain and simple.

 

[nccardfan]

I'll tell you why we are in no hurry. One, there's only a short list of coaches we want that are currently coaching. Two, and maybe the most important one, is although I'm not convinced he doesn't need to be fired, Payne can still theoretically win the ACC.... i know after you get off the floor laughing but tonight's performance tells me if they can bring that energy (even though it was Pepperdine) against ACC opponents, there's still a possibility. Yeah he's made some blunders and doesn't look like he's capable of winning a conference title but he hasn't committed an offense worthy of firing and consequently a lawsuit.

 

[Cardmark1]

And yet, that’s precisely the rationale you espoused for why Tyra should have not paid Petrino’s buyout when he got fired.

Holy crap, you hold a grudge don't you?
Bringing up stuff from that many years ago? Who gives a flip. Let it go, you'll live longer without all that pent-up hostility.

 

[Thecycle27]

You don't know that in 2016, and no one said that. It's revisionist history...

Who was clamoring for Petrino? Be specific. Shouldn’t be hard find the internet is great.

 

[BPGhost]

Holy crap, you hold a grudge don't you?
Bringing up stuff from that many years ago? Who gives a flip. Let it go, you'll live longer without all that pent-up hostility.

Thanks for the drive by analysis Dr. Phil but, I’m going to be just fine.

 

[KozmasAgain]

We beat a team that is 5-8 on our home court sad that we are celebrating that as improvement. The Pepperdine faithful are saying their coach and program has reached a new low by losing to us. That is the reality of where our program is.

 

[the artist FKA zipp]

Why didn’t you think that reasoning applied to Bobby?

Because there were plenty of allegations--not from me--that Petrino was specifically not performing job related responsibilities.

People hate Payne, but I've not heard anyone saying he hasn't been trying to do his job. If that isn't true, his own buyout could be at risk.

For a bigger reason--the optics of U of L firing an AA coach--I predict he gets his buyout...