Reflector Article.... 1941 National Champs

DerHntr

All-Conference
Sep 18, 2007
15,750
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does this make it official now? it is in a newspaper

http://media.www.reflector-online.com/media/storage/paper938/news/2009/09/04/Opinion/Msu-Should.Claim.1940.Title-3763558.shtml#5

</p>
In 1940, four major college football teams finished undefeated.</p>

The Minnesota Golden Gophers finished 8-0 after an impressive win over 7-1 Michigan. The Stanford Indians finished 10-0 after a Rose Bowl win over 8-2 Nebraska. The Boston College Eagles ended the season with a Sugar Bowl win over previously undefeated Tennessee to finish 11-0.</p>

Our Mississippi State Bulldogs finished the season 10-0-1. The tie came against Auburn in Birmingham, and the season ended with an Orange Bowl win over 8-2 Georgetown.</p>

The SEC was mathematically a stronger conference than any of the other undefeated teams' conferences. Boston College scored the most points per game, while MSU allowed the fewest.</p>

With no playoff system or BCS, the only way to determine a national champion was for polls to just pick one. And back then, the final polls came out before the bowls, so sometimes the "national champion" would lose its bowl game.</p>

In 1941, the AP Poll, the most respected poll in college football, chose Minnesota as the national champion, leaving three other teams without any losses empty-handed.</p>

Back then, sometimes organizations, or even random individuals, would come back years later and make lists of national champions. And today, some schools claim these after-the-fact lists as real national championships. All of a sudden, the BCS doesn't seem so bad, does it?</p>

Alabama claims 12 "national titles." Of course, five of those were declared retroactively by organizations or individuals who had no official power and didn't even exist during these years.</p>

In 1941, Alabama went 9-2 and lost to 9-1-1 SEC Champion Mississippi State yet still claims a national title thanks to one of those silly retroactive polls.</p>

And in 1964 and 1973, Alabama lost its bowl game and still claims a national title thanks to polls that released their final ballots before the bowls.</p>

Two of Ole Miss's three claimed "national titles" are suspect, with only one-man made up mathematical by-hand formulas (Dunkel in 1959 and Litkenhous in 1962). Ole Miss supplements its title claims from those years with after-the-fact rankings released years later.</p>

So if Alabama, Ole Miss and many other teams can claim national titles retroactively, why can't we? Especially when many teams claim national titles that were just lists made by some guy?</p>

I hereby establish an official list of national champions, the "Nelson List." I'll even let you look at it online (no space to print it here) at no cost.</p>

I will begin the list at an arbitrary year, 1935. I encourage all teams on this list to officially claim a "national title" for this year. And look, I even threw an extra couple to Alabama. I'm sure the banners are already being printed.</p>

Seriously, if other teams are going to claim phony-baloney "national titles," we should, too. In fact, until we have a playoff, all national titles are just made up on people's opinions.</p>

If Dunkel, Billingsley and Dickinson can have their opinions flown as banners, why can't mine? It's honestly just as legitimate.</p>

And who's to say the 1941 opinions of the Helms Athletic Foundation of who the best team was in the 1910s is any less legitimate that what I say in 2009 about 1940?</p>

Let's just print the banner and hang it. Sure, it's meaningless, but so are all other national title claims, especially those from the pre-BCS era. But if everyone else is claiming titles and using it to make themselves feel superior, why not us, too?</p>

Oh, to address the message board fad of claiming a 1941 national title: it just doesn't make sense. Don't get me wrong - I bought one of those shirts myself - but we can't claim a title in a year we lost to a team (Duquesne) that went undefeated. It just seems wrong to claim that one.</p> <h4>The Nelson List:</h4> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="6" border="1"> <tbody> <tr> <td>1935</td> <td>Minnesota</td> <td></td> <td>1972</td> <td>USC</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1936</td> <td>Minnesota</td> <td></td> <td>1973</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1937</td> <td>California</td> <td></td> <td>1974</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1938</td> <td>TCU</td> <td></td> <td>1975</td> <td>Alabama</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1939</td> <td>Texas A&M</td> <td></td> <td>1976</td> <td>Pittsburgh</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1940</td> <td>Mississippi State</td> <td></td> <td>1977</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1941</td> <td>Duquesne</td> <td></td> <td>1978</td> <td>USC</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1942</td> <td>Georgia</td> <td></td> <td>1979</td> <td>Alabama</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1943</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> <td></td> <td>1980</td> <td>Georgia</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1944</td> <td>Army</td> <td></td> <td>1981</td> <td>Clemson</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1945</td> <td>Army</td> <td></td> <td>1982</td> <td>Penn State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1946</td> <td>Army</td> <td></td> <td>1983</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1947</td> <td>Michigan</td> <td></td> <td>1984</td> <td>Washington</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1948</td> <td>Michigan</td> <td></td> <td>1985</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1949</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> <td></td> <td>1986</td> <td>Penn State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1950</td> <td>Tennessee</td> <td></td> <td>1987</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1951</td> <td>Michigan State</td> <td></td> <td>1988</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1952</td> <td>Georgia Tech</td> <td></td> <td>1989</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1953</td> <td>Maryland</td> <td></td> <td>1990</td> <td>Georgia Tech</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1954</td> <td>Ohio State</td> <td></td> <td>1991</td> <td>Washington</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1955</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> <td></td> <td>1992</td> <td>Alabama</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1956</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> <td></td> <td>1993</td> <td>Auburn</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1957</td> <td>Auburn</td> <td></td> <td>1994</td> <td>Nebraska</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1958</td> <td>LSU</td> <td></td> <td>1995</td> <td>Nebraska</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1959</td> <td>Syracuse</td> <td></td> <td>1996</td> <td>Florida</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1960</td> <td>Ole Miss</td> <td></td> <td>1997</td> <td>Michigan</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1961</td> <td>Alabama</td> <td></td> <td>1998</td> <td>Tennessee</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1962</td> <td>USC</td> <td></td> <td>1999</td> <td>Florida State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1963</td> <td>Texas</td> <td></td> <td>2000</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1964</td> <td>Arkansas</td> <td></td> <td>2001</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1965</td> <td>Alabama</td> <td></td> <td>2002</td> <td>Ohio State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1966</td> <td>Alabama</td> <td></td> <td>2003</td> <td>LSU</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1967</td> <td>USC</td> <td></td> <td>2004</td> <td>Auburn</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1968</td> <td>Ohio State</td> <td></td> <td>2005</td> <td>Texas</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1969</td> <td>Texas</td> <td></td> <td>2006</td> <td>Florida</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1970</td> <td>Nebraska</td> <td></td> <td>2007</td> <td>Kansas</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1971</td> <td>Nebraska</td> <td></td> <td>2008</td> <td>Florida</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
 

DerHntr

All-Conference
Sep 18, 2007
15,750
2,528
113
does this make it official now? it is in a newspaper

http://media.www.reflector-online.com/media/storage/paper938/news/2009/09/04/Opinion/Msu-Should.Claim.1940.Title-3763558.shtml#5

</p>
In 1940, four major college football teams finished undefeated.</p>

The Minnesota Golden Gophers finished 8-0 after an impressive win over 7-1 Michigan. The Stanford Indians finished 10-0 after a Rose Bowl win over 8-2 Nebraska. The Boston College Eagles ended the season with a Sugar Bowl win over previously undefeated Tennessee to finish 11-0.</p>

Our Mississippi State Bulldogs finished the season 10-0-1. The tie came against Auburn in Birmingham, and the season ended with an Orange Bowl win over 8-2 Georgetown.</p>

The SEC was mathematically a stronger conference than any of the other undefeated teams' conferences. Boston College scored the most points per game, while MSU allowed the fewest.</p>

With no playoff system or BCS, the only way to determine a national champion was for polls to just pick one. And back then, the final polls came out before the bowls, so sometimes the "national champion" would lose its bowl game.</p>

In 1941, the AP Poll, the most respected poll in college football, chose Minnesota as the national champion, leaving three other teams without any losses empty-handed.</p>

Back then, sometimes organizations, or even random individuals, would come back years later and make lists of national champions. And today, some schools claim these after-the-fact lists as real national championships. All of a sudden, the BCS doesn't seem so bad, does it?</p>

Alabama claims 12 "national titles." Of course, five of those were declared retroactively by organizations or individuals who had no official power and didn't even exist during these years.</p>

In 1941, Alabama went 9-2 and lost to 9-1-1 SEC Champion Mississippi State yet still claims a national title thanks to one of those silly retroactive polls.</p>

And in 1964 and 1973, Alabama lost its bowl game and still claims a national title thanks to polls that released their final ballots before the bowls.</p>

Two of Ole Miss's three claimed "national titles" are suspect, with only one-man made up mathematical by-hand formulas (Dunkel in 1959 and Litkenhous in 1962). Ole Miss supplements its title claims from those years with after-the-fact rankings released years later.</p>

So if Alabama, Ole Miss and many other teams can claim national titles retroactively, why can't we? Especially when many teams claim national titles that were just lists made by some guy?</p>

I hereby establish an official list of national champions, the "Nelson List." I'll even let you look at it online (no space to print it here) at no cost.</p>

I will begin the list at an arbitrary year, 1935. I encourage all teams on this list to officially claim a "national title" for this year. And look, I even threw an extra couple to Alabama. I'm sure the banners are already being printed.</p>

Seriously, if other teams are going to claim phony-baloney "national titles," we should, too. In fact, until we have a playoff, all national titles are just made up on people's opinions.</p>

If Dunkel, Billingsley and Dickinson can have their opinions flown as banners, why can't mine? It's honestly just as legitimate.</p>

And who's to say the 1941 opinions of the Helms Athletic Foundation of who the best team was in the 1910s is any less legitimate that what I say in 2009 about 1940?</p>

Let's just print the banner and hang it. Sure, it's meaningless, but so are all other national title claims, especially those from the pre-BCS era. But if everyone else is claiming titles and using it to make themselves feel superior, why not us, too?</p>

Oh, to address the message board fad of claiming a 1941 national title: it just doesn't make sense. Don't get me wrong - I bought one of those shirts myself - but we can't claim a title in a year we lost to a team (Duquesne) that went undefeated. It just seems wrong to claim that one.</p> <h4>The Nelson List:</h4> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="6" border="1"> <tbody> <tr> <td>1935</td> <td>Minnesota</td> <td></td> <td>1972</td> <td>USC</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1936</td> <td>Minnesota</td> <td></td> <td>1973</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1937</td> <td>California</td> <td></td> <td>1974</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1938</td> <td>TCU</td> <td></td> <td>1975</td> <td>Alabama</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1939</td> <td>Texas A&M</td> <td></td> <td>1976</td> <td>Pittsburgh</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1940</td> <td>Mississippi State</td> <td></td> <td>1977</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1941</td> <td>Duquesne</td> <td></td> <td>1978</td> <td>USC</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1942</td> <td>Georgia</td> <td></td> <td>1979</td> <td>Alabama</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1943</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> <td></td> <td>1980</td> <td>Georgia</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1944</td> <td>Army</td> <td></td> <td>1981</td> <td>Clemson</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1945</td> <td>Army</td> <td></td> <td>1982</td> <td>Penn State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1946</td> <td>Army</td> <td></td> <td>1983</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1947</td> <td>Michigan</td> <td></td> <td>1984</td> <td>Washington</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1948</td> <td>Michigan</td> <td></td> <td>1985</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1949</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> <td></td> <td>1986</td> <td>Penn State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1950</td> <td>Tennessee</td> <td></td> <td>1987</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1951</td> <td>Michigan State</td> <td></td> <td>1988</td> <td>Notre Dame</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1952</td> <td>Georgia Tech</td> <td></td> <td>1989</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1953</td> <td>Maryland</td> <td></td> <td>1990</td> <td>Georgia Tech</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1954</td> <td>Ohio State</td> <td></td> <td>1991</td> <td>Washington</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1955</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> <td></td> <td>1992</td> <td>Alabama</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1956</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> <td></td> <td>1993</td> <td>Auburn</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1957</td> <td>Auburn</td> <td></td> <td>1994</td> <td>Nebraska</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1958</td> <td>LSU</td> <td></td> <td>1995</td> <td>Nebraska</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1959</td> <td>Syracuse</td> <td></td> <td>1996</td> <td>Florida</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1960</td> <td>Ole Miss</td> <td></td> <td>1997</td> <td>Michigan</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1961</td> <td>Alabama</td> <td></td> <td>1998</td> <td>Tennessee</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1962</td> <td>USC</td> <td></td> <td>1999</td> <td>Florida State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1963</td> <td>Texas</td> <td></td> <td>2000</td> <td>Oklahoma</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1964</td> <td>Arkansas</td> <td></td> <td>2001</td> <td>Miami FL</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1965</td> <td>Alabama</td> <td></td> <td>2002</td> <td>Ohio State</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1966</td> <td>Alabama</td> <td></td> <td>2003</td> <td>LSU</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1967</td> <td>USC</td> <td></td> <td>2004</td> <td>Auburn</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1968</td> <td>Ohio State</td> <td></td> <td>2005</td> <td>Texas</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1969</td> <td>Texas</td> <td></td> <td>2006</td> <td>Florida</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1970</td> <td>Nebraska</td> <td></td> <td>2007</td> <td>Kansas</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1971</td> <td>Nebraska</td> <td></td> <td>2008</td> <td>Florida</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
 

DerHntr

All-Conference
Sep 18, 2007
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the whole point of the 41 championship is we beat Bama and they claim a title that particular year. the author missed it.
 

Foronce

Redshirt
Mar 26, 2008
2,069
0
0
if bama claims it and we won the SEC that year (41) and beat them... we are nat'l champs back to back!

and to the articlewriter... really you get your stuff from sixpack and call it to 'the message boards'... weak!
we know you were talking about sixpack cause you said you got a shirt... weak
 
R

Rabid

Guest
and then claim that it doesn't make sense? How are you going to take an idea from a message board, use their idea for an article and then diss that message board in the the last sentence of the article?

These Reflector sports writers ....
 

Todd4State

Redshirt
Mar 3, 2008
17,411
1
0
Foronce said:
if bama claims it and we won the SEC that year (41) and beat them... we are nat'l champs back to back! and to the articlewriter... really you get your
stuff from sixpack and call it to 'the message boards'... weak! we know you were talking about sixpack cause you said you got a shirt... weak

It's not like Gene is going to ban you or anything.
 

GloryDawg

Heisman
Mar 3, 2005
18,926
14,811
113
Rabid said:
and then claim that it doesn't make sense? How are you going to take an idea from a message board, use their idea for an article and then diss that message board in the the last sentence of the article?

These Reflector sports writers ....
 

GunnerDawg

Redshirt
Jun 23, 2009
21
0
0
Let's go ahead and print up the '40 title banner for the LSU game, and then unleash the '41 banner at the Bammer game. We can even use them to cover up the maroon flames.
 

wpnetdawg

Redshirt
May 1, 2006
724
0
0
If the Reflector named us 1940 National Champions and SPS named us 1941 National Champions, I say that means that we are two-time national champions and one of the few elite programs to win back-to-back.
 

emperorharry86

Redshirt
Mar 3, 2008
3
0
0
Just stating my opinion. We might as well claim both years. But in MY list, we get 1940 and not 1941.

Not trying to attack SPS or anything.
 

615dawg

All-Conference
Jun 4, 2007
6,510
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would not have had the idea for the article without SPS. The least you could do is give credit where credit is due.
 

emperorharry86

Redshirt
Mar 3, 2008
3
0
0
It's pretty obvious who I'm talking about when I credit the message boards and mention the T-shirt.

Anyway, the point is that I'm just some guy making a list, just like Dunkel, Billingsley, and the others. The Nelson list gives it to us in 1940. If the SixPack list gives it to us in 1941, then we can claim both. If every other schools is going to take these after-the-fact one-guy lists as real, why not us?
 

615dawg

All-Conference
Jun 4, 2007
6,510
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but not to people who do not know this site exists. Its sorry. McDavid and Defore should have taught you better - you give credit where credit is due.

Holy crap - Rabid and I are agreeing.
 

DerHntr

All-Conference
Sep 18, 2007
15,750
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i am damn glad that you wrote it and got it in the reflector. atta boy.

we are officially official
 

MrHooch

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2008
1,284
0
0
emperorharry86 said:
<span style="font-weight: bold;">It's pretty obvious who I'm talking about when I credit the message boards and mention the T-shirt.</span>

Anyway, the point is that I'm just some guy making a list, just like Dunkel, Billingsley, and the others. The Nelson list gives it to us in 1940. If the SixPack list gives it to us in 1941, then we can claim both. If every other schools is going to take these after-the-fact one-guy lists as real, why not us?
Your 'idea' wasn't YOUR idea at all...you shamelessly ripped it from THIS board, and then didn't cite your source. That makes it bad writing, or ****** reporting. Take your pick, but either way you suck...
 

QuaoarsKing

All-Conference
Mar 11, 2008
5,762
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How did he "rip off" an idea when he made a serious attempt to justify a 1940 (different year) title, when this board is making a tongue-in-cheek jab at Alabama by claiming a 1941 title?
Sure, they both concern national title claims, but it's not like he's advocating claiming 1941 with the all of the SPS claims...
 

ColMuldrow

Redshirt
Apr 3, 2007
207
0
16
Both of you are trying to use logic to validate your argument. In doing so you've both missed the whole point.
 

cps36

Redshirt
Jul 14, 2008
661
0
0
He would have given the Pack credit for pushing the retroactive national title agenda. You are obviously trying to one up the board by claiming 1940 instead of 1941 without even picking up on why the Pack chose 41 in the first place. Congratulations. Your and idiot.</p>