I was saying the other night that I think the Catholic Church should hire Theo Epstein and gear up for a big run.
Religion Question:
- Thread starter BigBlueSean_rivals178247
- Start date
Throughout this process of conversion it to me has been really crazy how many Protestant Christians have talked and questioned me and my wife and said things about Catholicism that they believe to be true that simply aren't. One we get a lot is "but Catholics worship false idols and statues" or this idea that Catholics "changed the bible" and that "Catholics don't get baptized" . All of which are no where close to the truth. Most of these people don't even know who Martin Luther is or what role he played in the creation of what is now upwards close to 50,000 denominations. Martin Luther got rid of one pope, but created 50,000 more.
Prayer is an act of worship. Praying to Mary and the saints is worship of false idols. It really is that simple. Look at Lourdes. Are you suggesting there is no worship of Mary going on there? What about burying a statue of St. Joseph upside down and then praying to him in order to sell your house? What about placing a statue of St. Christopher on your dashboard? Walk into any Catholic church, a place of worship, and you're as likely, if not more likely, to encounter a statue of Mary or a saint as you are one of Christ. These are all acts of worship. You can dissect the meaning of the word all you want, but the essence is the same - veneration of false idols.
Let me ask you this: let's say you WANTED to "worship" Mary and the saints; what would you do differently than what you're doing now?
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Yeah, I don't care. But asking it out of the blue (and I later learned it was done somewhat spitefully - family drama) is weird.
Yeah those dumb Protestants.
I'm Protestant. Not sure what your point is? But cute smiley things.
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There's a belief among Catholics that sola Scripture belief by evangelicals is "simpleton" and/or unsophisticated. Not all Catholics, but some I've heard on Catholic radio.
This just shows you have no clue what you are talking about.
This is one of the most common misconceptions about the Catholic faith. Many well-intentioned, God-loving Christians of various denominations have heard this mistruth from trusted but ignorant teachers over the years, or have read it in books that claim to “expose” what they believe to be the Catholic faith. Unfortunately, as with most misconceptions, these conclusions are drawn with little or no true understanding of the faith or of the practice, or the purpose in question.
So, is worshipping a statue wrong? Yes. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that it is wrong, in line with the Sacred Scriptures as it states in Exodus 20:4-5, “You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them”.
That being said…
There are several places in the Bible where God commissions statues and images for religious usage:
Exodus 25:10-22
1 Kings 6:23; 7:13-51
Numbers 21:6-9
Judges 17:1-6
Is God sending Two Different Messages?
Not necessarily…
God ordered His children to construct these statues and images, but He did not intend for His children to worship them. God was using the images to help them to recall situations, to see places as holy and set apart, and to help them to open their minds and hearts and turn them back to God.
You see, an image is not an idol. There is a difference.
“An image is simply a spiritual ‘visual aid’ that is used by the faithful to increase their spirit of prayerfulness and devotion to God. An idol, on the other hand, is an image that is worshipped by the unfaithful in place of the one true God (i.e., the ‘golden calf’ described in Ex. 32:7-8).”
In the Old Testament, images of God were forbidden because folks had not yet seen God in human form. In the New Testament, God HAS taken on human form…an image that we can see.
“He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God…” – Colossians 1:15
“For in Jesus dwells the whole fullness of the Deity, bodily…” – Colossians 2:9
“What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we looked upon and touched with our hands concerns the Word of life – for the life was made visible…” – 1 John 1:1-2
When we profess that Jesus Christ is Lord, we must remember that we are professing the Incarnation…that is, that God became flesh…flesh in human form, Who we could see, smell, hear, touch and (through the Eucharist) taste!
When we look upon a statue as we meditate in prayer to God, our senses are illuminated. We are not worshiping the wood, plaster, plastic or paint. The image, though, appeals to our sense of sight, aiding in our visualization and helping us to focus on the pure, consistent and holy life lived by that saint…like the Blessed Virgin Mary, for instance.
Here’s a few more things to keep in mind:
Stained glass windows with images can work in the same way…but most people don’t seem to have a problem with those, because “they’re just pretty”.
Images were very important in the early times of our Church’s history, especially when most of the faithful were illiterate, and could not read the word of God on their own. The images helped them recall instances and situations in the Word that they had heard about, but could not read on their own.
We put framed pictures of loved ones on mantles and walls of our homes, but that doesn’t mean that we worship them.
If I hold my Bible during worship, and hold it close to my heart…am I worshiping the God who inspired and wrote it, or am I worshiping the leather, glue and paper?
Catholics may pray in front of a statue, but never to a statue…that would be idolatry.
Finally, consider these last two thoughts regarding what the early Christians did:
“Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God…and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.” – St. John Damascene (749 AD)
“The early Church used statues and images as aids to devotion and as expressions of faith. One need only to visit the catacombs in Rome to see statues and frescoes representing no only Christ but also scenes from Scripture. When the Church emerged from the catacombs, it continued to decorate its houses of worship with statues, mosaics, frescoes, and oil paintings, all designed to increase a spirit of prayerfulness.” -Albert Nevins, M.M.
When Catholics pray to Mary they aren't giving her power equal to or more than God. They are simply asking her to intercede on Gods behalf through the power only God has.
Martin Luther had major issues with the presence of a Pope and just Catholic's in general.... He fathered the protestant reformation that now consists of over 50,000 different denominations with 50,000 differing takes along with 50,000 different leaders.
50,000 is a ridiculous number, regardless, virtually all Protestant churches agree on the most important issues of the faith as I will show below. Let's do some theological "triage" treating the most crucial things first like they would in an emergency room:
First Order: Doctrines that seperate Christians from non-Christians
-The Trinity (bye bye Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals (T.D. Jakes)
-The Divinity of Christ (excludes Jews, Muslims, JW's (again))
-The Bodily Resurrection of Christ
-Sola Fide/Salvation by grace through faith alone (excludes Muslims, Jews, JW's, Mormons AND Many in the Catholic Church who believe grace is earned through the sacraments...this is the issue that divides Protestants from Catholics)
Second Order: Doctrines that separate born again believers from worshipping together (i.e. denominations)...one may detect an error in a doctrine at this level and still acknowledge that the person in error remains a believing Christian
-Church government (Baptists cannot be members of the same church with Presbyterians because one believes in congregational government, the other in the Presbytery)
-Infant baptism (Baptists cannot attend the same church with those who baptize babies when Baptists believe only believers are to be baptized according to Scripture)
-Female Elders
-Beliefs regarding the continuation of miraculous gifts/tongues/healings etc. (These often separate Charismatic Pentecostals from other Protestants.
Third Order: Opportunities for disagreement regarding lesser doctrines that ought not separate believers within the same church
-Manner of Christ's return (timing/existence of the Rapture, amil, premil, postmil etc.)
-Calvinism vs. Arminianism
-Bible translation preference
-Song preference in church
-Color of the church carpet
-Whether or not to wear a suit
Therefore, as you can see, Protestants are in unity about the issues that matter most (and are most clear in Scripture), namely the Person and Work of Christ for the salvation of His people. We have disagreements that by nature separate us, but these disagreements are often about issues that are less clear in Scripture.
And some Protestants find the use of a dead language to be elitist or pretentious. Not all. Just most.
(I took Latin in high school)
???? I was talking about only using Scripture for authority and not the Scriptures + the Church. Basic term..figured everyone used it when comparing both belief systems. Congrats, btw, on your HS Latin.
I figured that using a basic term wouldn't t be as douche-laden as having to profess my acumen of HS Latin
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And I dont disagree with that. I think Catholicism fits right into that. But though we are saved through the grace of God, one does not get to simply be baptized, and then not change anything in their life and still maintain their salvation...for even the bible says faith without works is nothing.The bible even references "For you are either hot or cold, if you are luke-warm I will spit you out of my mouth". The sacraments are not done for their "saving power", that rests solely in the grace of God, but the sacraments exist in effort to draw one closer to God and live a life for him and that is pleasing to him. Much like communion, repentance , prayer, participating in bible study etc. in the the Christian Church.
Your posts would carry a lot more weight if they weren't lifted verbatim from Catholic apologetics websites. Copy, paste, and recite what the Roman Catholic Church tells you. It's been that way for a thousand years. [eyeroll]
http://www.catholicfaithfriends.org/article.php?view=47
I dont think all Protestants are "Simpletons".... However I did find it funny when I asked my mothers preacher about Martin Luther he had no clue who he was...
Well Partly thats needed because I literally just converted and had I even tried to articulate what I wanted it would not have been as clear as what was stated on that page. Listen I don't have to explain myself to you. Its people like you who aren't Catholic, and just like to sling mud and hope it sticks and someone doesn't actually know what the Catholic church ACTUALLY teaches. You have this idea in your head that you completely understand the purpose of the Saints, and why Mary is referenced the way they are but dont understand the totality of it all. Its ok though. I get it. You dont like or agree with Catholicism. I dont like that my mother goes to a church with a preacher who hasnt a clue what he is speaking of. The most fundamental principle of faith in its entirety is THE SAME in both Catholicism and Christianity. Accept Jesus as the Lord and Savior. Be Baptized. Repent.
The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic theology is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace, completely unmerited by works, that one is saved.
I, for one, do not believe this happened. Unless the preacher was some totally uneducated coal miner or farmer living way back in some holler who never made it into town. It is possible that a preacher might not know much about Martin Luther but not even know who he was? C'mon.
What was the preacher's name and town his church is in? I'll give him a call.
Believe in the Bible, do ya Karl? Well I can't understand none of it. This one begat that one and that one begat this one, and lo and behold someone says some **** to someone else?
Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't need a priest or an educated protestant preacher, or really anyone (human) at all to tell us what god requires?
If you think catholics pray to Mary then any time you ask someone to pray for you, you are essentially doing the same tging. So why are you worshipping the people in your prayer circle?
Congrats brother, you got your wish. Simply read the Scriptures and the means of salvation will be crystal clear, then you can speak directly to God through our great High Priest, Jesus Christ...you don't need Mary or a man to intercede on your behalf. This is the glorious news of the Gospel that the curtain in the temple to the holy of holies was torn in two and now we have direct access to our Father through faith in Christ. This is the glorious grace of God
Mary is dead, has been for over two thousand years. She is no different than anybody else who died two thousand years ago. When we ask someone to pray for us they are alive and able to pray for us. We are not praying to them.
I would be happy to read the Bible to you...in fact, I teach many people the Word of God who are from almost entirely oral cultures here in Ecuador.
LOOK MF'er, U AINT HELEN KELLER. BRAILLE MF'er
As a baby, I stole a pacifier from my brother and my Muslim family cut off my hands, so no braille either.
I think you may be overlooking the possibility that his preacher is young and doesn't remember 1968. I didn't know that much about him until I heard he was assassinated.
So you don't think Catholics pray to Mary? A pope said as much, but you deny it?
I get it, I am Lutheran, but there isn't 50k popes. It sounds like you're doing the same thing you were bitching about with people not understanding...
The relationship Catholics put on Mary is just often misunderstood...and saints as a whole. In order to halfway understand, one must know the 4 Marian Dogmas.
1) Mary is the mother of God- Now this doesn't mean that Mary is above God. This simply means that Mary was chosen to bring Christ into this world. Therefore she was his mother. In those times the "queen" was not the kings wife, but rather his mother. This is why so much art Depicts Mary in this light. It also depicts Mary at the right hand of God which was delegated for power and to essentially represent the needs of the people and bring them before the king/ Jesus.
2) Immaculate Conception - self explanatory
3) Perpetual Virginity - self explanatory
4) Assumption into Heaven - A distinction needs to be made between Ascension and Assumption. Jesus Christ, Son of God and Risen Lord, ascended into heaven, a sign of divine power. Mary, on the contrary, was elevated or assumed into heaven by the power and grace of God.
When a Catholic prays before Mary or bows, they are not attributing Mary with the power and grace only Jesus has, they are simply asking for her intercession on their behalf. Its equivalent if you were on your knees in prayer in front of a priest or preacher. You aren't attributing them with the grace of God, you are asking simply for them to pray for you, and due to their proximity to the Lord Jesus, act on your behalf. Its not attributing any power to Mary. Its simply like "Hey Mary, you are at the right hand of God, and already in heaven and in his presence, so could you, along with Jesus send some prayers my way?". Thats all.
1) Mary is the mother of God- Now this doesn't mean that Mary is above God. This simply means that Mary was chosen to bring Christ into this world. Therefore she was his mother. In those times the "queen" was not the kings wife, but rather his mother. This is why so much art Depicts Mary in this light. It also depicts Mary at the right hand of God which was delegated for power and to essentially represent the needs of the people and bring them before the king/ Jesus.
2) Immaculate Conception - self explanatory
3) Perpetual Virginity - self explanatory
4) Assumption into Heaven - A distinction needs to be made between Ascension and Assumption. Jesus Christ, Son of God and Risen Lord, ascended into heaven, a sign of divine power. Mary, on the contrary, was elevated or assumed into heaven by the power and grace of God.
When a Catholic prays before Mary or bows, they are not attributing Mary with the power and grace only Jesus has, they are simply asking for her intercession on their behalf. Its equivalent if you were on your knees in prayer in front of a priest or preacher. You aren't attributing them with the grace of God, you are asking simply for them to pray for you, and due to their proximity to the Lord Jesus, act on your behalf. Its not attributing any power to Mary. Its simply like "Hey Mary, you are at the right hand of God, and already in heaven and in his presence, so could you, along with Jesus send some prayers my way?". Thats all.