If you are in TN the carpenters rate might be $12 to $15 per hour...market rate. Step across the border in KY to a PW rate mandated at $50/hr....it's nuts.
Right to work.....finally
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If you are in TN the carpenters rate might be $12 to $15 per hour...market rate. Step across the border in KY to a PW rate mandated at $50/hr....it's nuts.
Building an EDR owned dorm on UK campus. Total wage and benefits in the 40's.
Any project where state money is used. Louisville on the Convention Center. KFC Yum....etc.... That is how it works. UK had about $3-billion in construction the past few years and all of that was done under Prevailing Wage. Its staggering how much the tax payer has been soaked in order to pay back the unions.
A couple that I subcontract to make close to that, and on the right jobs they are worth it. Most make no where near that, unless I bid a PW job and jack their hourly rates up to meet requirements.
I can believe that, but that's comparing apples and oranges. However, if a carpenter was working on a dorm at UT in Knoxville his package would be probably identical.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it to him. I don't think he wants to understand it, though.
No, he was comparing hourly wage to total package.
I have a childhood friend that's a Union Carpenter, and he doesn't make anywhere close to $50 an hour.
This is actually a point for unions. Can we get this without the corruption, bullying, and raping of taxpayers through unholy contracts with municipalities?
TN is a right to work state. They do not have a prevailing wage. The market and not the state dictates the wage rate you figure in TN. In KY you charge based on PW rates that you must pay. Your carpenter or electrician etc... all are paid a PW based on what the state uses as the rate for that trade. It is done to "level" the playing field for union construction firms.
He will make over $40/hr wage and benefits combined. It is +$40/hr to the company no matter how you divide it up. He can receive $40/hr in wage or $30/hr wage + $10 toward his healthcare and retirement etc... But it's $40+ per hour.
In TN to use the example...no one dictates the wage and certainly no one is required to pay "benefits." So you could easily be paying $25/hr MORE for the exact same project just 1 foot across the border in TN.
I understand that, but pointed out straight hourly pay in TN to total package of employee in KY.
The carpentry classification is fairly broad and catches a lot of trades. Not just the guy framing it. Electricians too. That class is broad and catches guys from low voltage up through the big stuff.
I pointed out that in TN there is no requirement for benefits. You (based on size of firm) are not required to pay a dime in benefits. So on UT you could have a carpenter being paid $15/hr with NO benefits at all...except SSI etc.. that are "understood." Compare that with $40/hr PERIOD. Mandated. That is my point. In TN the market and not a politician paying back the union are the ones who decide. Why do you think Nashville has so many cranes on the horizon. It is booming.
In TN to use the example...no one dictates the wage and certainly no one is required to pay "benefits." So you could easily be paying $25/hr MORE for the exact same project just 1 foot across the border in TN.[/QUOTE]
I can buy that, however my main gripe was his low balling TN numbers, and high balling KY.
I can buy that, however my main gripe was his low balling TN numbers, and high balling KY.
Of course they don't have the "right" to. Just like the government doesn't have any right to restrict me from entering into a contract... Yet they do it anyways.
Again depending on what you are calling a carpenter most framers and trim guys make that easy.
Let's say you have a 2000 sq ft house and the framers charge $4.50-6 a foot. They are getting 9000-12,000 for the job and typically knock that size project out in 5 days if the supplier is on point. That's a 4-6 man crew working and banking that in a week. Granted each guy may not make the same but if you average hours per guy I think you'll easily get over $50 an hour.
Plumbers and electricians get $85 an hour
In the same way framers avg more trim guys do the same as well.
I can buy that, however my main gripe was his low balling TN numbers, and high balling KY.[/QUOTE]
I was not doing that at all. Maybe I have not explained myself well but I am factually correct. There is NO requirement for a non union business in KY or TN to pay employees benefits. If less than 50 employees because Govt required Obama care not withstanding.... a small carpentry firm can pay its employees a rate above min wage...I used twice the min wage at $15/hr. That is it. On the local ChickFilA project the carpentry co can pay $15/hr PERIOD. Not low balling, and in fact with all the illegal Mexican labor on projects I am being quite generous at $15. That translates to both KY, TN, IN for that matter.
If however the job is a PW project which if state or city money in Louisville etc... is involved then it is set at a combined $40+/ hr rate. It can be mixed between cash and retirement or any other benefit the firm offers but most of it is wage but at the end it MUST be $40+/hr. Heavy fines come if you try to game the system. So inside the "bubble" of a PW or DB wage project the rates are artificially high as a means to equal the playing field for the union construction firms.
I was low balling NOTHING. I am stating fact.
If you think carpenters make $12-$15 hour then you are totally out of touch.
No your not! I have bid multiple chic fil a projects in the last year and the one I landed the framing crew won the bid at $42,000.
They aren't paying anyone on that job $15.
Again, I was using TN. I can find carpenters all day long for that in TN. For a journeyman Carpenter in Nashville..maybe $17/hr.
The Federal Min wage for Carpenters on HIGHWAY projects in TN is $16.85/hr.
TN is much cheaper than KY. Just a fact.
You do understand that bidding and wage paid to a laborer are entirely different things. One would hope you'd mark up your labor estimate in your bid. You are comparing apples vs. oranges. Now if you are a small time carpenter who self performs...then certainly you make as much as you work yourself and the quicker you get done the more you personally make. That has nothing to do with what I am talking about with a PW.
They left for Mexico for low wages,zero environmental ********, so yea, wouldn't you leave? I 've been to Mexico a 100 times, got to know guys there, they avg 12 dollars a day, piss poor and treated like dirt.
All of you RTW freaks, I sense jealousy with all your Ford, GE comments, I'm sure you wanna keep whitey below you on the economic grid. RTW states avg $6000 less a year, coincidence? I guess you blame the high cost of a Ford truck on the union guy making 27 bucks a hour. It is called corporate greed, saturate the job market with 11 dollar/hr jobs, and watch the domino effect take place. SMDH
I understand PW, I hate it. I'm not a carpenter either. Just a supplier that gets on the job and networks as much as possible.
I also was apart of the Texas Roadhouse in Murfreesboro and the Home 2 Suites in Nashville. Both used local framing crews and no one on those sites made or are making only $15 an hour.
That is absolute fact!
I also was apart of the Texas Roadhouse in Murfreesboro and the Home 2 Suites in Nashville. Both used local framing crews and no one on those sites made or are making only $15 an hour.
That is absolute fact!
You have an anecdote that cannot be proved. All you have to do is google carpenty rates in TN and you will be able to see that I am simply providing govt statistics that are published. Assuming you are a supplier who takes time to go around a jobsite talking to workers asking them how much they are being paid hourly....I find that weird....but maybe the contractor who chases around TR and Home 2 Suites who are normally out of the area and chase the OWNER and that project around from state to state. Maybe they must pay a higher rate because they do not have friendly local subs who do work for them regularly. THAT is how things work in the construction business especially for Hospitality contractors who send in a project superintendent who tries to get locals to work for them rather than their better "friendly" contractors.
You are right in that some jobs use the same crews where ever they are in the country. But most also use a local bid as well and believe it or not in TN the local guys won so the GC used them instead of bringing in their crew.
I supply lumber, so in that case I work directly with the framers and attempt to build relationships so that if other jobs come my way I have a contact in the future to refer good framers or sometimes use them in an installed package price.
Regardless, no one on either job was making $15 an hour, which is my point. I don't have to prove it because anyone in the industry knows better.
Does it happen? I mean I guess if someone is a bad bidder or bad in general, and maybe back charged out the ***.
I supply lumber, so in that case I work directly with the framers and attempt to build relationships so that if other jobs come my way I have a contact in the future to refer good framers or sometimes use them in an installed package price.
Regardless, no one on either job was making $15 an hour, which is my point. I don't have to prove it because anyone in the industry knows better.
Does it happen? I mean I guess if someone is a bad bidder or bad in general, and maybe back charged out the ***.
Are you familiar then with framing crews or roofers who are not here legally? Certainly in the lumber biz you know that is wide spread. They do not make the money your are talking about.
Further, you seem to be mixing the bid with the rate the owner of the framing company is actually paying his labor. If its a small crew and they are splitting the sell price...that is not an hourly wage in the sense of what we are discussing with PW.
I'm not answering for Krazy, but I would think illegal labor would be against the law prevailing wage or not?
Are illegal crews pretty common in TN and KY?
I am, and in the world of "no speak englishe'" I don't get to talk to those guys as much. However that said, they usually work under an umbrella and the main guy just isn't paying them right but still charges the same. Those situations are hard to gauge because I'm white and naturally illegals tend to be cautious.
Which is why the deportation of illegals will not hurt jobs/labor like people think.
Labor is up right now too. Last year guys got $4 a foot and were happy. Right now people get $6-6.50 a foot and business is up big overall.
Union folks don't realize but the free market determines "fair" instead of forcing it on industries whether the market calls for it or not. Union people just can't comprehend that.
Which is why the deportation of illegals will not hurt jobs/labor like people think.
Labor is up right now too. Last year guys got $4 a foot and were happy. Right now people get $6-6.50 a foot and business is up big overall.
Union folks don't realize but the free market determines "fair" instead of forcing it on industries whether the market calls for it or not. Union people just can't comprehend that.
Just in the construction industry......and others. Yes. If ICE shows up on a large construction project....watch them scatter.
To your point...yes and people cheat...not just with illegals. The unions will typically have a guy walk around a project asking workers if they are being paid PW. If not, they turn the company in to the Labor Cabinet. Plus they post signs....in spanish telling the non english speakers that this is a PW job and you should be making a lot more than the $3.50 per day they are getting.
I am with you there. Things are very busy right now. Labor is TOUGH to find. That is driving up the cost in the Market. A GC better have a loyal group of subs because if he doesnt...he'll be hard pressed to get them to show up without paying them a lot more. But that is the way the market should work and not by DC or Frankfort dictating an artificial PW rate that drives up the cost by a ton.
They were bad when I started a few years ago. What people do not realize is the US govt was already working on cracking down on illegals. There were jobs that totally stopped because half the crew was deported and they were waiting to get back in the country.
To the topic of the thread, even vs illegals a union does no good. Sure it protects wages, but it doesn't protect the work. Companies will wait on cheaper labor!
I get why are pro union, but it boils down to one thing and that is simply an employee mindset vs an employer mindset. When your set to be an employee for life might as well get the most of it.
More garbage. The states with the fastest wage increases are RTW States. You guys have to stop believing all the garbage they feed you down at the union hall
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/income-growth-in-right-to-work-states-higher
Exactly! It's stupid to think the way they do.
It's the same with hourly pay vs salary pay.......I bet not one union guy wants a salary either. It's just their mindset of never having to compete. It's easier for them this way.
Unions are great until the work is gone because of overpaid wages!
It's the same with hourly pay vs salary pay.......I bet not one union guy wants a salary either. It's just their mindset of never having to compete. It's easier for them this way.
Unions are great until the work is gone because of overpaid wages!
I thought this thread was about the right being able to work because we will have a real president now and not a puppet controlled by the masters on both sides. Imagine my surprise.
Like abortion, marriage equality, legal suicide, medicinal marijuana, yes the party of choice.
I am glad Bevin is doing this for workers and not big business. I am sure the jobs will come rolling in asap.