Serious question about the Croom era

[FlabLoser]

MSU has regularly had great defenses. So let's skip the NFL talent and the outstanding coordinator that Croom had on defense.

Question: did Croom have the best offensive talent MSU has ever seen? He had some NFL linemen, 2 NFL RBs, a couple NFL WRs, and a highly sought after QB in Conner. Name another MSU coach (ok your only other option here is Sherrill) that had that much talent over 4-5 years.

Only at Em State could so much talent FINALLY come together at a time when the head ball coach is the worst coach we've ever had.

 

[FlabLoser]

MSU has regularly had great defenses. So let's skip the NFL talent and the outstanding coordinator that Croom had on defense.

Question: did Croom have the best offensive talent MSU has ever seen? He had some NFL linemen, 2 NFL RBs, a couple NFL WRs, and a highly sought after QB in Conner. Name another MSU coach (ok your only other option here is Sherrill) that had that much talent over 4-5 years.

Only at Em State could so much talent FINALLY come together at a time when the head ball coach is the worst coach we've ever had.

 

[57stratdawg]

We keep throwing around all the NFL talent Croom had, but none of those guys have really made an impact. Norwood and Dixon aren't exactly feature NFL backs.

I always thought our WRs sucked when i watched them. Lance Long has managed to hang on to a practice team, but Co-Eric, Tony Burkes, Aubrey Bell, and Will Prosser had no impact on the NFL.

I think we are vastly more talented on offense this year than we ever were under Croom.

 

[Dollabillz]

Let's not be the equivalent to anti-Orgeron Ole Miss fans. Croom had absolutely nothing to work with on the offensive or defensive lines. Now, he could have done better with what he had, but we're talking about beating Maine, UAB and Vanderbilt.

 

[Frances Drebin]

...we need to hold up on all this sudden revisionist history on all of our offensive "firepower" during the Croom error. It's true that he had Norwood and Dixon, and Big Country on the OL. But come on, by and large, we had terrible offensive talent. I mean, I like Omar Conner, and there's no doubt that Croom misused him. But he was not a good QB. He could make things happen with his feet, but he couldn't throw it worth a ****. Lance Long sucked balls at State. He had a tremendous work ethic and some decent speed, and turned himself into something, but he wasn't a WR with NFL upside at State. Most of the guys who did have pro upside either washed out while we were doing things "the right way" (Richard Burch), or got coached down (Eric Butler, Tony Burks). I refuse to give Croom any credit for Norwood or David Stewart, because they were Jackie holdovers. As for Conner, Croom probably did the right thing in moving him to receiver, except that he didn't have a QB who could get him the ball. Pegues was overrated. I'm not disparaging him...he was a good defensive back and returner, he just never had the coaching he needed to get him to the next level.

We have certainly had offensive teamsunder other coacheswith better QBs and better OL, which made the backs and receivers better. MSU in 2000 is a great example of this.

I would love for someone to produce numbers to show how many NFL players came from each SEC school between 05 and 08. I strongly suspect MSU will be bringing up the rear on that list.

 

[Coach34]

i'm betting we are ahead of at least Vandy and Kentucky from 05-08....

 

[Dollabillz]

Unfortunately I agree with your entire post, except for the part about Pegues being overrated. He was an elite talent, don't see how you could question that. Not sure what's going on with him now, but he could play NFL ball.

 

[Mjoelner]

If that were the case, Croom would've won here. Talent wins over coaching in the end. See Les with Saban's recruits and Houston with the Ogre's recruits for proof of that. Remember Croom wanted to cut Willie Evans (yes he was on D not O). Not only did he not bring in talent, he wanted to get rid of what we had. Oh yeah he brought in AD but if Mullen had AD, he'd have been a first round pick by year 4.

eta: Yes I know Willie was on D not O (Pappy was just making a point; Oh Brother reference)

 

[Dollabillz]

Good players and good coaching will win you games.....
Good players and bad coaching will win you games.....
but
Bad players and good coaching will get your *** beat....

 

[Todd4State]

QB- John Bond. A great triple-option/wishbone QB. I think he was the first guy in the NCAA history to have 2,000 passing yards and 1,000 rushing for his career or something like that.

C- Kent Hull. NFL Pro-Bowl caliber center, and one of the games best in the late 80's and early 90's.
G- Wayne Harris- Won the SEC lineman of the year. Have no idea why he didn't do better in the pro's.
G- Matt Edwards.
T- Alan Massey- Made All-SEC
T- Roman Grace.

TE- Jerry Price- Made All-SEC
Wingback- Mardye McDole- Played in the NFL and CFL. Probably underutilized by Emory in the 80's.
WR- Glen Young- Played in the NFL, now badass teacher at MSU.


HB- Micheal Haddix- Played in the NFL for several seasons.
HB- James Otis Doss/McDoyle
FB- Donald Ray King

 

[dawgwhisperer]

Croom was the pits as a coach. How bout that O-line? They sucked? The only reason the O-line stunk it up under Croom was because he had no idea what he was doing. He refused to play to the talent he had and that killed him. It's all about running plays with blocking schemes best suited for the talent you have on the O-line. In one year, with basiclly the same players, our O-line went from looking like possibly the worst we have ever had(how many sacks did we give up in the Ole Miss game alone) to one of the bright spots on the team. And now in year two, under someone who does know what hes doing, I believe the O-line will be one of the definite strengths of this team. We averaged 100 more offensive yards and something like 12 points a game more in Mullens first year than in Crooms last. You do remember our offense under Croom never ranked inside the top 100. How many yards did Dixon have in 08 vs. 09?

We went 5-7 last year playing the toughest schedule in the country and the Alabama game was the only one we never really had a chance in. Every other game we still had a chance to win going into the fourth and a couple of them right up to the end of the game. If Croom were still here last year we would have been 3-9 at best and possibly 2-10 and we also would have been out of the game by halftime in many of those games. I don't see how anyone could argue that when the record proves it. The one year we did get to a bowl under Croom it certainly didn't have anything to do with the offense. The difference is coaching.

I agree a great coach can't win with no talent and I also agree great talent can sometimes make up for bad coaching, see LSU. But Croom wasn't gonna get it done. He had decent talent with zero head coaching ability on a college level and thats definetly a losing combination. I feel sorry for players like Norwood and Pegues who wasted their time and their college careers playing under that idiot.

 

[thatsbaseball]

but I damn sure would have liked to have seen Mullen work with them. We damn surewouldn`t have sunken to the embarrassment that we were.Croom getting a head coaching job at an SEC school or any other D1 school for that matter was the equivalant of a complete moron winning a lottery. If Croom had had a whole lot more talent than he did when he arrived he would have gone 5-6 instead of 3-8. </p>

 

[tebmsu97]

I think this seems to be a common theme with most fans (at many schools, but especially ours) were we tend to over value our players because we are familiar with them. One thing about the NFL, if you have NFL talent you will be in the NFL. DP may have been a good, even great player in college, but to say he was an elite player with NFL talent is a bit of a stretch.

To the original post, Croom had little to no NFL talent on his roster. Does that excuse his coaching, not at all, but to say he did less with more is again a stretch.</p>

 

[BigMotherTucker]

I like Omar Conner, and there's no doubt that Croom misused him. But he was not a good QB. He could make things happen with his feet, but he couldn't throw it worth a ****.

Omar Conner + The Tuscaloosa Turd = Decent WR with no QB to throw to him
Omar Conner + DanThe Man=a M. Vick type QB.

 

[BigMotherTucker]

Dollabillz]Unfortunately I agree with your entire post, except for the part about Pegues being overrated. He was an elite talent, don't see how you could question that. Not sure what's going on with him now, but he could play NFL ball.

If he could play NFL ball then he would be playing NFL ball. Pegues was either vastly overrated or vastly underutilized. The only thing about Pegues that made enough of an impression on me to stick was his punt return for a TD against OM. Everything else was pretty lack luster.

 

[dawgstudent]

Kevin Dockery has had a productive NFL career after a lackluster 4 years at college.

 

[Seinfeld]

that Croom actually coached up? Looking through the commit lists that played ball during his tenure, there was only one name that stood out to me and that was Titus Brown.

The list of 3-5 star recruits that ended up as complete wastes under Sly is a mile long, but can anyone think of anyone else that actually improved under him? For a guy that was so high on diamonds in the rough, you would have thought that there'd be more than one that developed.

 

[FlabLoser]

Seems like every year there was a Sr DL that was a monster. Titus Brown, Willie Evans, Ronald Fields, Deljuan Robinson. I know there were a few others.

And I am 100% sure those were all a product of one Brick Haley who left coaching our DL to coach the Chicago Bears DL.

 

[Dollabillz]

but again, Croom just never let him do it. A shame, really.

But to say Croom completely ruined him is misleading. King Jackie started the Connor at WR experiment, which amounted to whole lot of nothing in 2003 except for a wasted freshman season. Connor should have been at QB the entire time. The only way he should have went to WR was if we'd signed Ryan Perriwinkle.

 

[Seinfeld]

I don't know about Fields and Evans, but I know that DR was a very high profile recruit so it's hard to say that he was really coached up. I'm talking more about the 2-star kid that turned into a solid talent or a 3-star kid that turned into All-SEC.

 

[TUSK.sixpack]

nm

 

[lawdawg02]

Granted, I only looked at the NFL draft, so undrafted free agents who actually made teams are unaccounted for. But it's a starting point.

I wouldn't be so sure that we're ahead of anyone during that time frame. </p>

 

[Coach34]

according to http://www.databasefootba...issippi+State+University


Titus Brown,
Quinton Culberson
Kevin Dockery
Ronald Fields
Antonio Johnson
Jerious Norwood
Deljuan Robinson
David Stewart


These guys actually played in the NFL...but Crooms stated we didn't have enough talent to beat Maine and I just can't let that statement go

Vandy has only has 7, so we aren't last
Kentucky has 9

 

[VegasDawg13]

If that were the case, Croom would've won here. Talent wins over coaching in the end. See Les with Saban's recruits and Houston with the Ogre's recruits for proof of that. Remember Croom wanted to cut Willie Evans (yes he was on D not O). Not only did he not bring in talent, he wanted to get rid of what we had. Oh yeah he brought in AD but if Mullen had AD, he'd have been a first round pick by year 4.

eta: Yes I know Willie was on D not O (Pappy was just making a point; Oh Brother reference)

I would argue the bolded portion is evidence against your point of view, not for it. The worst coach in conference history went 0-8, then Nutt, a good coach, came in, and they won the Cotton Bowl. So, how exactly does that prove your "Coaching hardly matters; it's all about talent" theory?

 

[PBRME]

I don't count Titus as coaching up. If anything they did him a great injustice by moving him to de. He was our best linebacker his freshman year, then they moved him to de and he was buried in the depth chart for the next 2 seasons.

 

[lawdawg02]

Those numbers are pretty sad, though.

</p>

These guys actually played in the NFL...but Crooms stated we didn't have enough talent to beat Maine and I just can't let that statement go

I absolutely agree. I really wish that one day I could forget about the Crooms error.
</p>