Serious Question: Have we been underachieving on Defense under Wilson?

[AzzurriDawg4]

And, gasp, even under Diaz? And particularly on the defensive line?

Look at the guys we have put in the NFL or will put in the NFL off the last 3 units?

KJ Wright is an instrumental piece of one of the best defenses in the NFL. Cox is a beast for Philly. McPhee, Chris White, Charles Mitchell...

Boyd, Slay, Banks...maybe Autry, Whitley...

The lack of pressure we have gotten from our front 4 the last 2.5 years has been extremely disappointing. I dont think there is any sugar coating this. Our d-lineman have shotty technique. I heard recently that NFL scouts are very unimpressed with the fundamentals of our d-line prospects but enamored with their raw talent. There seems to be no quick-twitch pass rush technique taught, specifically using their hands to get off blocks. I saw Autry speed rush and duck under a tackle one time this year and he got held (and probably got chewed out for losing containment when he got back to the sideline). Is Quay so good at getting in the backfield because Wilson hasn't messed him up yet?

This is just one part of it. What about our overall defensive philosophy? Wilson has yapped about being a high-pressure defense since he got here. I have seen nothing of the sort. Even the blitzes we dial up are highly ineffective. The middle of our zone has been a joke under this regime. Gap assignments and lateral pursuit from the front 7 are about the only thing we seem to do well, which is nice but far from max potential.

I know our defenses have gotten better under Wilson as the season goes on, and I do believe that we are forcing our players to do some things early in the season to make them better at the end, but I believe that even when we really got better on defense towards the end of the year last year, we still werent playing at our potential given the athletes we have.

Just a little Monday morning topic to mull over.

 

[Hanmudog]

I don't know about "underachieving" but it has been a little frustrating at times watching teams go on long drives. However many times these drives end in field goals or turnovers so we must be doing something right.

I have been more frustrated with the inconsistency of the offense than I have the defense.

 

[TulsaLawDawg]

I think the UT game will really tell us. Bray is explosive but crumbles under blitz packages. Our secondary should be able to exploit this. If we see our line game him this way, setting up JB and Slay, then we at least know we are attacking weaknesses. But then again, I'm just a lawyer.

 

[FlabLoser]

I have never been impressed with Manny or Wilson.

When we hired Manny, there was a lot of hype about wild blitz packages and playing in the offense's backfield. "Third down is recess". Our defense under Manny was effective in keeping the opposition from scoring a lot of points, which is all that really matters. But it was never some flashy thing that forced a lot of 3 and outs and made fans salivate over who was getting the next sack.

Its been more of the same under Wilson. The opponent can take all the yards they want against us, but the defense usually holds them below our offense's point total. Again...that's what you need to win. But something doesn't feel right about it.

 

[Coach34]

Scoring defense 2009- 71st under Torbush
Scoring defense 2010- 21st under Diaz
Scoring defense 2011- 16th under Wilson
Scoring defense 2012- 13th under Wilson

We can argue technique, philosophy, blitz packages all we want- but bottom line is scoring defense. And that is where we are one of the best in the country. Hard to argue with those results

 

[shsdawg]

Scoring defense 2009- 71st under Torbush
Scoring defense 2010- 21st under Diaz
Scoring defense 2011- 16th under Wilson
Scoring defense 2012- 13th under Wilson

We can argue technique, philosophy, blitz packages all we want- but bottom line is scoring defense. And that is where we are one of the best in the country. Hard to argue with those results

THIS

 

[EAVdog]

No

Look at Scoring Defense and TO margin.

(I think our scheme does have some difficulty against spread passing teams though, particularly the quick out timing Offenses)

 

[dawg21]

No...
About par for the course. While Auburn's offense stinks, we did get the most pass rush I've seen us get against an SEC team in a long time. Thats the biggest weakness of our defense, and I think its better than last year.

We've slept walked the last few games.

It does bother me if indeed we do not use proper technique.

 

[engie]

I think it is just annoying this season because we have the personnel at DB right now to make a JLD ridiculous blitz scheme actually work. So it almost feels like we are wasting personnel right now.

Other than that, I'm with Coach... As aggravating as the style may be at times, you can't argue with the results. As of right now, in scoring d, we are prettymuch on pace with the 99 squad. Just isn't near as pretty in total d, rush d, or pass d...

99 scoring d - 13.5ppg
12 scoring d - 13.3ppg

 

[OmarLittle]

Legend said the same thing but he got banned.

 

[OmarLittle]

And, gasp, even under Diaz? And particularly on the defensive line?

Look at the guys we have put in the NFL or will put in the NFL off the last 3 units?

KJ Wright is an instrumental piece of one of the best defenses in the NFL. Cox is a beast for Philly. McPhee, Chris White, Charles Mitchell...

Boyd, Slay, Banks...maybe Autry, Whitley...

The lack of pressure we have gotten from our front 4 the last 2.5 years has been extremely disappointing. I dont think there is any sugar coating this. Our d-lineman have shotty technique. I heard recently that NFL scouts are very unimpressed with the fundamentals of our d-line prospects but enamored with their raw talent. There seems to be no quick-twitch pass rush technique taught, specifically using their hands to get off blocks. I saw Autry speed rush and duck under a tackle one time this year and he got held (and probably got chewed out for losing containment when he got back to the sideline). Is Quay so good at getting in the backfield because Wilson hasn't messed him up yet?

This is just one part of it. What about our overall defensive philosophy? Wilson has yapped about being a high-pressure defense since he got here. I have seen nothing of the sort. Even the blitzes we dial up are highly ineffective. The middle of our zone has been a joke under this regime. Gap assignments and lateral pursuit from the front 7 are about the only thing we seem to do well, which is nice but far from max potential.

I know our defenses have gotten better under Wilson as the season goes on, and I do believe that we are forcing our players to do some things early in the season to make them better at the end, but I believe that even when we really got better on defense towards the end of the year last year, we still werent playing at our potential given the athletes we have.

Just a little Monday morning topic to mull over.

Now read this below. The same thing.

I know u all have on maroon colored glasses and refuse to speak objectively but its the truth. I know this thread is suppose to be about the oline but instead of making more threads I'll go ahead and get all of it out here. Wilson makes for a great interview and thats about it. For all of u worried that he's going to leave at the end of the season that is laughable. Im sorry but he and Mullen and crew arent going anywhere. See they do just enough to keep us happy here but not enough to garner the big dream job that they hope for. The dline hasnt showed me anything. No pressure at all. If it wasn't for Preston Smith I don't think we'd have any sacks. Autry looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane. Eulls is terrible at end. Just put the weight on him and slide him inside and let Preston Smith start. Also Quay should be starting right now. Thats why I hate offseason interviews and msg board prognosticators. Its all hype. I see it but you guys don't. And if you have 2 shut down corners why play so much freaking zone? Blows my mind.

This board has a real double standard.

 

[ckDOG]

Absolutely.

Scoring defense 2009- 71st under Torbush
Scoring defense 2010- 21st under Diaz
Scoring defense 2011- 16th under Wilson
Scoring defense 2012- 13th under Wilson

We can argue technique, philosophy, blitz packages all we want- but bottom line is scoring defense. And that is where we are one of the best in the country. Hard to argue with those results

Plus, one of the beefs against Wilson this year has been the zone coverage against the lesser opposition. Well, looking at the participation lists, it's obvious we are trying to get as many guys in the game as possible for depth development. You can't ask the young guys to do too much, too early - so we've gone vanilla as a trade off to getting these guys experience. If we see similar strategy against higher quality opponents, then it's time to *****. Until then, I feel better knowing we have as many guys with decent game experience as possible.

 

[Irondawg]

I think we just have to accept that we are a conservative defense

All the other stuff is just talk. We don't stunt and we don't do a lot of other stuff on the D-line to try and get off blocks. Basically our DL is there to occupy blockers and fill gaps and keep contain. And we do a good job of that.

Our middle zone has spacing issues and I wish our CB's would play a tad tighter but i think if you probably asked other OC's about our defense they would probably say we don't cause a lot of confusion but that we don't leave a lot of opening for big plays either.

QB's have to be on their game to hurt us. Troy's guy was - the disappointing thing about that game was our run defense. We did not fill gaps well there at all. But against AU we did it beautifully.Not sure what the difference really was there.

 

[Coach34]

Plus, one of the beefs against Wilson this year has been the zone coverage against the lesser opposition. Well, looking at the participation lists, it's obvious we are trying to get as many guys in the game as possible for depth development. You can't ask the young guys to do too much, too early - so we've gone vanilla as a trade off to getting these guys experience. If we see similar strategy against higher quality opponents, then it's time to *****. Until then, I feel better knowing we have as many guys with decent game experience as possible.

That statement right there is the key. It's easy to coach man coverage, but the fact we have played these easier games early, it has allowed us to play more guys and let them learn how to play zone. We couldnt have asked for a better schedule.

 

[EAVdog]

The thing about an NFL defense is, they are all NFL talent.

We've had a number of great players recently, and still do, but we don't have 11 NFL players on our D right now. It's hard to compare how someone's talent translates to the NFL because they are either masked by having to make up for other players inabilities or they get boosted up by other players around them.

We have some great DB's, Good LB's, and a Good DL. It doesn't mean we're going to look like hte Ravens out there getting sacks and making plays in the Secondary. Right now we've been daring teams to throw into our secondary. And it's paid off. When we play tougher competition we'll adjust like we have in past years. That has been very obvious for anyone watching the past couple of seasons. We play soft for La Tech and play stout against LSU. Yes, I find that sort of aggravating but we're 4-0 so until we get torched by a scrub team I'm ok with it. (we haven't lost an OOC game since the Houston replay ripoff and Ga Tech in 09)

 

[Negative Waves]

If we had the 98 or 2000 offense to go along with the 99 defense, no one would've scored against us. That 99 defense was just brutal. If the offense could've moved the ball, the opposing teams would've had terrible starting field position every time.

 

[AzzurriDawg4]

Scoring defense 2009- 71st under Torbush
Scoring defense 2010- 21st under Diaz
Scoring defense 2011- 16th under Wilson
Scoring defense 2012- 13th under Wilson

We can argue technique, philosophy, blitz packages all we want- but bottom line is scoring defense. And that is where we are one of the best in the country. Hard to argue with those results

I know scoring D is the bottom line, but you know it doesn't tell the whole story. How about the field position defecit it creates when we consistently allow sustained drives? Sure, we may stop them at our 45 and force a punt, but we aren't going to score either because we get the ball at our 10.

Of course the #1 goal is to prevent points, but 1A is getting the ball back to your offense as quickly as possible. That means 3 downs or turnover.

Also, I didn't ask if the defense was bad, I asked if it was underachieving. What if we have the potential to be a Top 10 scoring D? What if we had the talent on the field to be one of the most dominating defenses in the league?

Finally, nobody disputes that Torbush was a clown, but that doesn't make Wilson a genius.

 

[AzzurriDawg4]

It pays to be the consigliere.

 

[OmarLittle]

Plus, one of the beefs against Wilson this year has been the zone coverage against the lesser opposition. Well, looking at the participation lists, it's obvious we are trying to get as many guys in the game as possible for depth development. You can't ask the young guys to do too much, too early - so we've gone vanilla as a trade off to getting these guys experience. If we see similar strategy against higher quality opponents, then it's time to *****. Until then, I feel better knowing we have as many guys with decent game experience as possible.

Saban throws his guys into the fire. Going vanilla bc of young guys is no excuse for the soft zone. The should still be able to play man and blitz.

 

[gravedigger]

Legend was spamming idiot. I believe that's why he was banned. Autry plays like a woman and eulls is terrible.....damn, that **** is for the spirit board.

 

[ckDOG]

Saban also has the luxury of using premier athletes

Bama's young guys are everyone's A-list. You can throw those guys into the fire and expect them not to get burned. Our guys, although better athletes compared to before Mullen got here, are still unpolished products of the MS HS football system. We have to teach differently based on the guys we recruit. It's apples to oranges. If you ask a young guy, with little game experience and behind the curve on development because of no coaching in HS, to play man when he is green, he's going to 17 up.

This method allows our unpolished guys to get comfortable in a game environment without asking them to have too much individual responsibility. In theory, it's easy to coach a guy to play man, but you still risk your young guy biting on a move he's not familiar with and giving up a TD. Zone is tougher to learn, but at least when the young guy makes a mistake, it's a 15 yard mistake and not 6 points.

 

[AzzurriDawg4]

This still doesn't explain why our front 4 can't blow up an offensive line from Troy, JSU or USA, particularly vs the run, if we are going to use the zone scheme as an excuse for our pass D.

 

[esplanade91]

This might sound ridiculous but could it be by design?

We've played an awful Auburn team and 3 non-AQs, and the Tennessee game I think we all knew BEFORE the season was what was going to put us on the map. Going into this UK game, assuming we play zone and don't start our best DL personnel (we haven't, in my opinion), UT has zero quality tape on us. Basically they know not to throw on Banks and pray to God Slay is having a bad day.

With our depth chart on DL there isn't a reason in the world Cherrington should START. He should get PT, especially when we need a push in the middle, but start?

I can't help but think we're playing a cruel joke on UT.

 

[RougeDawg]

Does 0.000 stunting and slanting...

This still doesn't explain why our front 4 can't blow up an offensive line from Troy, JSU or USA, particularly vs the run, if we are going to use the zone scheme as an excuse for our pass D.

Against those three teams have anything to do with not getting pressure on opposing QB? I'm guessing you think we are going to just have a pee wee rush straight upfield against every opponent.

Or could it be we actually have been playing vanilla, not showing any blitz/stunt/slant packages the same as we haven't shown anything on offense? We really didn't show much against Auburn.

You think there might be some coincidence that we've run hardly any screen passes all year, when Perk thrives on that play?

Please people, open up your 17ing eyes and see that we have barely had to show any of our Playbook on either side of the ball to start off 4-0. Lets act like we've watched football before, even if some of you cannot act like we've started off 4-0 before.

Relax or down a 30 pack of keystone like the Stallion. It seems to help him merge his dreams with reality.

 

[ckDOG]

That's a fair point and my biggest disappointment with the D this year.

We have looked very average so far on the LOS.

 

[Jacknut1]

The only game you can really look at is Auburn. The other three are hard to take anything from because we played everyone but the trainers. I think we'll crack open the playbook a little on offense and defense this weekend.

 

[AssEndDawg]

MSU fans have never understood the "bend but don't break" defense but it works. You aren't going to win games with this defense, you still rely on the Offense to win, but you shouldn't lose because of the D either unless you are just outmatched. I don't see anything wrong with it, it's just frustrating to watch.

 

[Coach 57]

The reason we are towards the top of the nation in scoring D is because the closer you get to the endzone the field starts to shrink and it allows Cdub to be more aggressive in his sets. From what i see we are now a multiple defensive formation unit now as opposed to previous years. I think when we go to a 3-4 set you will see us in our strength. And it wouldn't sunrise me to see us use it against UT. As far as Cdub is concerned i have seen the guy up close in person and see him teaching, i think you people need to calm down. Don't forget this either, his defense is only allowed to be a tool to CDMs team. Don't forget that!

 

[HueFreeze]

Last 6 years we have had 5 different DC's

needless to say this may not be Wilson complete package of players.

Other small points, we have redshirted a good number of talented FR, the last 3 years and relied on guys like Zack Smith, Wade Bonner, Brandon Wilson the last 2-3 years and still improved
While we may not allow pressure we also are in the top of the nation in allowing plays over 40+ yards ...so staying in our gaps and remaining disciplined are also important phases of a wilson/diaz coached d
I think with the depth we have piled up in the last 3 years, could be the biggest factor in why we don't blitz as much ...i mean memphis scored on Zack Smith, you really want him 1on1 on 3rd down

 

[JackShephard]

Thanks for outing yourself, yet again.

 

[kired]

Is our d-line over hyped? Obviously Boyd and Autry are legit. But after that...

Eulls is maybe a poor man's Fletcher Cox. Seems to be built in the same mold, but not as explosive. Cherrington was a JUCO walkon no one had heard of 1 year ago. Devin Jones is about 6ft tall and 50 lbs under weight playing DT. McCardell was so good at DE that we moved him to TE two years ago. Virges isn't impressive, Jones isn't playing.

Some of the young guys look promising, but they're young. Preston Smith, Ryan Brown, Evans, and James all should have bright futures.

 

[57stratdawg]

2012 D stats so far mean nothing. Don't even include them, because of the teams we've played. UT, A&M, Bama, LSU, and OM will all raise our total D.

I'm with Azzuri in that our DL's pass rush has probably been the most disappointing aspect of the season so far. We better hope something changes, because if UT and A&M have all day to through the ball, we could lose those games. See our game against Arkansas last year.

 

[InaccuratePredictionsDawg]

Since when has MSU had a "technique" defense...

..for the past 20 years the standard approach for MSU defenses has been dumbed down to cave man simplicty: "Just go out there & knock the **** out of somebody, & good things will happen." In that timespan, I haven't seen much technique. I've seen a lot of headhunting & creating plays through contact. I don't know where your technique thing is coming from, since I've never seen a MSU D.C. concentrate on technique. Having said that, I don't like the way our DB's constantly play 5 yards off WR's. Tyler Bray & Johnny Football with thrive on that foolishness.