Should Penn State get the death penalty?

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Hump4Hoops

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and are referring to the "Penn State football program" as a person who needs to be punished. That's just silly. The only reason SMU got the death penalty was because the cases of boosters paying off kids was so rampant as part of the culture that the NCAA could literally not stop it any other way.

I don't think the Penn State football program has a culture of child rape. I think that everyone responsible is going to jail, or is dead, and that should be the end of it.
 

57stratdawg

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His first line was that no one was defending Sandusky or Penn State, just that the NCAA shouldn't get involved in handing out punishment for criminal offenses. I only ask, because your entire paragraph:

My problem with Penn State and with you is this, you think football is
more important than it really is. It's a $%%@%*% game. And your thinking
shows you would fit in great with those Penn state people because you
feel that football is so important that shutting down their program for
two years is an unspeakable tragedy... etc
Was pretty well addressed by his first sentence that you either didn't read or chose to ignore.

No one thinks what happened at PSU was right. Clearly. But that doesn't mean the NCAA needs to come in with the death penalty. It's like DeerHunter keeps pointing out, should Kansas basketball get shut down because of their ticket scandal? What's the difference? I'll even throw out Bobby Petrino. Petrino probably broke some federal employment laws when he hired the chick he was banging onto his staff. Should the NCAA step in and give them a bowl band or death penalty?
 

Hump4Hoops

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I just believe that this is a legal issue not an NCAA issue.

And you can just shut the 17 up about the "arguing the pro-rape side" nonsense.
 

dawgs.sixpack

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andy staples agrees with the minority

http://sportsillustrated....l?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a2


To use a term the NCAA coined, how can this not represent a Lack of Institutional Control? Because it doesn't -- at least not in the NCAA sense. It is a case of a university having too much control. It is a case of a massive abuse of power with horrific consequences, and the perpetrators of that abuse of power deserve jail time. It is not a case of broken NCAA bylaws, though.

There is a reason the IRS doesn't punish murderers who pay their taxes. That same reason applies here.

...

When arguing with NCAA Death Penalty advocates on Twitter, a common refrain from them is that if the NCAA doesn't punish Penn State's football program, no one will learn the proper lesson from this case. Canceling football games and revoking scholarships will do nothing to teach the necessary lesson -- which is that if a man doesn't exercise human decency and do the right thing to protect those who can't protect themselves, then he'll be fired and could go to jail.

...


Nothing meaningful will be learned if the NCAA crushes Penn State's football program despite a lack of evidence that any NCAA rules were actually broken. This could change if Judge Louis Freeh's investigation turns up evidence of actual NCAA violations. If the Freeh Report contains evidence of academic fraud to keep athletes eligible or any other chicanery banned in the NCAA's manual, then the NCAA will have jurisdiction. Failing that, all the NCAA could do is commit a massive abuse of power -- which is exactly the same thing that got Penn State in trouble in the first place.

...


What rule would the NCAA claim Penn State broke? Ohio State fans should be intimately familiar with Bylaw 10.1, which forbids Unethical Conduct. The NCAA manual includes a list of circumstances in which 10.1 would apply, but makes sure to leave it open-ended by using the phrase "may include, but is not limited to." This bylaw is the NCAA's catch-all, and it usually is used to hammer coaches or administrators who lie to NCAA investigators. Conceivably, the NCAA could tag former athletic department employees Paterno, Curley and Mike McQueary with violations of Bylaw 10.1 for their failure to act after McQueary said he witnessed Sandusky raping a boy in a shower. (Cumulatively, these violations could draw the Lack of Institutional Control charge.) I studied 177 cases involving violations of 10.1 last year for a column about Jim Tressel, and every one of those 10.1 violations was attached to another violation of an existing NCAA rule. To apply it without attaching it to another violation would also be an extraordinary precedent.

An extraordinarily dangerous precedent
.

...

Unless Freeh's inquiry turns up actual violations of NCAA bylaws, Penn Staters should not have to worry about the NCAA destroying their football team. That doesn't help anyone. Hopefully, the people involved in the cover-up at Penn State will pay dearly. Hopefully, that will send the necessary message that protecting children always outweighs professional concerns. Given the weight of the other aspects of this case, tearing down the football program would just be petty.
 

Repeat Offender

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were committed by employees instead of players makes a huge difference in your argument to keep the NCAA away from such issues. A few players smoking weed can't really be compared to high ranking administrators committing and covering up a crime, esp child molestation. Now, if one of our coaches was selling weed out of the M-Club building, you "might" be able to compare the two. The NCAA should easily be able to seperate student athlete issues from those of paid employees that run collegeathletic departments.</p>
 

dawgs.sixpack

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FlabLoser said:
dawgs said:
sandusky is going to jail. no one is arguing he shouldn't.
the ex-AD and ex-VP or whatever ex-admins were involved are likely going to jail based on the evidence that is coming out. no one is arguing they shouldn't.
joe pais dead. but if he wasn't you'd have to think at this point charges would be brought against him. no one is defending his actions.
the university and all the aforementioned involved are going to have their asses sued. no one is arguing they shouldn't be held liable.
<

Actually most PSU fans are defending everybody except Sandusky.
have you talked to any of them since nov/dec '11 when all this was breaking?back then there was enough gaps in theknown evidence that they could delude themselves into believingjoe pa wasmerely naive and that he did what he thought was best, butas more and more evidence has come out,the ones i know from work (granted these are reasonably intelligent engineers, scientists, and lawyers) accept that it'sall pretty much true. also, not sure that many of them ever defended the admin guys. they were throwing them under the bus as not doing anything after joe pa reported to them. so yeah, basically i think you must have known 1 or 2 deluded penn st fans or be reading some espn comments sections if you think most reasonable penn st fans (1) ever defended everyone except sandusky and (2) think all penn st fans are refusing to accept joe pa's roll in all this in light of the more recent evidence to come out.
 

dawgs.sixpack

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well you are putting a lot of trust in the NCAA to walk a mighty fine line.

that said, let's say a strength coach is selling steroids to players. is that a bad enough crime to get the ncaa involved? what if it's narcotics? what if an assistant is involved in a pyramid scheme? what if it's a hit and run? what if...what if...what if...

there is basically no way to start splitting crimes up that way, either the NCAA is involved or they are not. it's in everyone's best interests to let the police/feds deal with crimes and the NCAA worry about rule violations that lead to an on field advantage.
 

Repeat Offender

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I really don't trust the NCAA to handle anything in an unbiased manner and I really don't like the idea of them gettinginvolved in criminal matters, but somecommon sense should be used by them on occassion.It has become apparent that most of the hierarchyin the PSUathletic dept knew aboutthis incident and made great efforts to hide it.They knew that if the info got out, it would hurt the program and their personal legacies. It was not only a criminal act, butan NCAA violation in my mind. Why did Paterno and company sweep this info under the rug? Reputation, recruiting, winning football games? Hiding this info was definitely unethical and it will definitely impact their football program for years, they sacrificed the innocence of many children for the sake of the program. Again, I can understand why you and others would not want the NCAA to get involved inpolicing criminal activity, but common sense has to kick in at some point. FYI, if a strength coach is selling roids to players and the AD, HC, Pres and others cover it up, hell yes, let the NCAA get involved. I do believe that if the NCAA does nothing in this situation, they need to take words like integrity, ethics, and the "spirit of the rule" out of any of their doctrines though.
 

dawgs.sixpack

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i probably shouldn't have said he's selling them to players, because that does bring into on field competitiveness.

let's say he's selling steroids to normal students, not players. and the HC/AD cover it up because he's a good strength coach. NCAA need to step in? or just let the justice system dole out the neccesary punishment and watch the HC/AD ruin their entire careers and potentially face jail time too.

as for hurting the program, winning football games, etc., penn st is suffering far more from the cover up than if they had simply reported the crime in 2001. while that would have been merely blip on the radar for penn st football, this is going to be a **** stain that will take much longer to wash out. so while the HC/AD/VP acted to protect the program from suffering, they have actually made the situation for the program exponentially worse. which to me is another argument as to why it is overkill for the NCAA to come in riding high and mighty and drop the death penalty on the program, they program is already suffering a fate worse than probation.

it seems like common sense would kick in, and it is. these guys are going to jail. sandusky is going to jail. joe pa's entire life is tarnished. common sense asks why we feel the need to punish a name in "penn st" when there was no on field benefit and such punishment would result in nothing but punishing the innocent players on today's squad and the coaches that penn st brought in to help clean up the mess. and i don't mean a bowl ban, the death penalty pulls the rug out on 85 scholarship athletes. it puts 12+ coaches in the unemployment line. it probably ends up costing cheerleaders and band geeks some scholarships. not to mention athletes for non-revenue sports who rely on football to fund their sports (assuming football would be the only NCAA casualty. and putting the death penalty on the entire athletic dept,as some have suggested,has even farther reaching consequences.) and why? so that we can punish the name penn st? to me that is the anti-common sense.
 

AssEndDawg

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Hump4Hoops said:
I don't think the Penn State football program has a culture of child rape. I think that everyone responsible is going to jail, or is dead, and that should be the end of it.
Personally? You are assigning emotions to an internet post? Read my past writings, I just like to cuss and make my point forcefully. Nothing personal here.

And yes, Penn State built a culture of child rape. That is the entire point. A coach saw another coach *%!!%@% a child in the football locker room. The entire chain of command; grad assistant coach, head coach, athletic director, president and others according to the email were told about it. This was the second time they caught the coach with young boys. The culture in place told them to hide it, bury it, make like it never happened. Why? Because football is so important at Penn state that they knew that this could get them fired.

So you are saying that the entire chain of command from grad assistant to president decided to hide this and allow the man to continue raping children and you don't consider that evidence of their culture? Maybe I'm crazy... but who determines the culture then? If not the president, athletic director and coaches? The Penn State football program is permissive of child rape. Period. End of story.
 

AssEndDawg

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Aug 1, 2007
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I'm not defending Penn State but I don't think anything should happen to Penn State football. If you don't think something should happen to them then you are defending them.

It's like DeerHunter keeps pointing out, should Kansas basketball get
shut down because of their ticket scandal? What's the difference?
Because it is +$@+%+$ child rape and not a ticket scandal.

I'll even throw out Bobby Petrino. Petrino probably broke some federal
employment laws when he hired the chick he was banging onto his staff.
Should the NCAA step in and give them a bowl band or death penalty?
I'll try again... <font size="5"><span style="font-weight: bold;">CHILD RAPE!</span></font> Not an idiot hiring his mistress.

I'm seriously keeping my kids away from this board's tailgate.
 

AssEndDawg

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Aug 1, 2007
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Hump4Hoops said:
I just believe that this is a legal issue not an NCAA issue.

And you can just shut the 17 up about the "arguing the pro-rape side" nonsense.
that while this is bad it is not so bad that it should affect the Penn State football team? That seems like what you are saying to me. My reasoning is that since Penn State decided to put football ahead of even the safety of children being raped that they should lose football. I'll admit I went a step too far with the "pro-rape" thing but I still find myself a little disgusted with the people who don't think the NCAA has a duty to act. Penn State University needs a reset, they need to quit playing football for a while and get their priorities in order. The monumental level of failure that happened here demands it in my opinion.

I believe it is both a legal and a NCAA issue. I don't see how the football program gets off when it is entirely because of the football program that the school is involved in this mess.
 

DerHntr

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Sep 18, 2007
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How about I just say criminal activity instead so that you don't go batshit crazy again? The severity of the crime is not the problem. The fact you want them dealing with criminal matters that do not have anything to do with the running of the athletic program is the problem. You are letting blind rage about what I agree is one of the most horrible things ever to happen in athletics to get the better of you.
 

DerHntr

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I still find myself a little disgusted with the people who don't think the NCAA
has a duty to act.

I don't think they have the right to act. Duty be damned.
 

dawgs.sixpack

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Oct 22, 2010
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the point is that it was a couple of people that were involved. penn st did not draw up an official way of dealing with this. the palyers were not involved. it was not a culture of child rape anymore than the kid getting shot in the dorm at msu was indicative ofa culture of murder fostered at msu or the kid at vatech a few years ago being indicative of a culture of shooting sprees at vatech. the PEOPLE responsible are paying for it. sandusky, schultz, joe pa's rap, the others involved in the cover up. they are paying for it. the biochemistry professor at penn st didn't foster an environment of child rape. the junior RB on football scholarship did not foster an environment of child rape. the penn st alum working for a fortune 500 company didn't foster an environment of child rape. a small circle of men acted poorly and they are now being punished for their actions. i repeat A SMALL CIRCLE OF MEN made these decisions and conspired to cover this up. these men are paying for their criminal actions. what good does it do anyone to @*$# up thousands of lives so we can piss on the name penn st one more time? and trust me, it would affect thousands. lost scholarships, academic programs losing funding, decrease in enrollment causing the cut of more acadmeic programs, leading to professors being left out to dry. why? because a couple of guys thought they could get away with it. this isn't a culture of child rape, it's merely a some guys trying to cover up sandusky's actions.

this is above football, which is exactly why the ncaa shouldn't come in trying to act high and mighty dealing out the death penalty.
 

DerHntr

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Let's make a laundry list and create a new compliance officer at all NCAA organizations who keeps up.

I think you must watch a lot of political news because I feel like I am arguing with a commentator on Fox or CNN. Just because you go nuts and type a bunch of heated statements doesn't make your point any more clear. It makes you look irrational and moronic.
 

lazlow

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Jul 9, 2009
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the message that they send is that its ok for your football program to molest kids for > 20 years then cover it up....just don't have a booster hold a set tires for a player on a CC. This might be the only thing that actually gets through to this fan base/program.
 

gravedigger

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That said, the individuals found guilty should find themselves in a cell with the worst of sexually deviant criminals.

edited to add: their athletic department should have to live under martial law....that is to say EVERY one of them should have to have someone standing over them for many years.

Id also say that every coach on that staff had some understanding what was happening. Either by knowing first hand or second hand from other coaches on the staff. They should be limited in their ability to be alone with any player and NEVER allowed to assist in a camp with younger children.

Sorry. My thoughts might seem a bit 'guilty until proven innocent' but there can be no risk taken ever. I have a 10 and 12 year old. I have no idea how I'd respond to finding out this happened to them, but the judicial system would not suffice for me.
 

dawgs.sixpack

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i'd think spending time in jail, getting their asses sued off, ruining their reputations, and flushing their personal and professional lives down the toilet effectively teaches them the lesson they need to learn without punishing people who weren't even on penn st's campus at the time.<div>
</div><div>the name penn st can't do or not do anything. the people behind these criminal acts are paying for them. all you are advocating is punishing the name penn st. it has nothing to do with the current staff or the current players or the fanbase. i'm not sure how you can interpret sandusky going to jail, the ex-administrators facing jail time, joe pa's legacy completely destroyed, and the pending civil lawsuits as the ncaa saying it's ok to molest kids. this isn't within the realm of the ncaa's jurisdiction. $100 handshakes aren't illegal, but they do create an unfair playing field, so the ncaa governs these violations. in this case, these aren't "violations", they are criminal acts that broke laws, and those involved are being punished far more severely than anything the ncaa could hand down. it's about time 70+% of yall learn the damn difference between a ncaa violation and breaking the law and why one is within ncaajurisdictionand the other shouldn't be anywhere near the ncaa's jurisdiction. obviously if violations are discovered in the investigation, then the ncaa can step in, but until then, this is much much larger than the ncaa.</div>
 
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