***soccer post: talking pot(s)

jsireland

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Sep 1, 2003
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http://soccernet.espn.go..../?cc=5739&ver=global

Bad news for all those that were hoping to be potted with Africaf - and I think that was all of us. Concacaf in Pot B along with Asia/Oceania. Pot A the top seeds (no Portugal/France), Pot C with Africa and South America, Pot 4 for non-seeded UEFA teams.

Dream Group: South Africa, US, Ghana, Slovakia

Group of Death: Germany, US, Cameroon, Portugal
 

patdog

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May 28, 2007
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CONCACAF always gets screwed in the World Cup draws. The pot system is just a poorly disguised way for FIFA to manipulate the draw. Has it ever even been possible for us to be drawn into a group with an Asian or Ociania team, except for in Korea when we drew South Korea in South Korea (thanks FIFA).
 

msubullie4life

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Jun 4, 2007
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The FIFA bastards will do anything to protect their big guns. I can't wait to see how they rig the draw on Friday. Group of death, here we come!

It's surprising that FIFA went with the rankings instead of the formula that they had used for the previous 2-3 WC Draws but I understand why they did it. It would have been unfair to seed teams that struggled (and hand-balled!) through the qualifiers.

Your dream group can't happen as FIFA has specified that no African team can be in South Africa's group and no South American team can be in Brazil and Argentina's group.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/finaldraw/01/14/22/91/fwc2010_draw_procedures_seeding.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/8390084.stm

I know all 8 teams in our pot are praying for Group A South Africa's group. Knowing our luck that may not happen. Argentina or Italy with a mid-tier Euro team (no France or Portuguese) and Algeria/Ghana/Paraguay would be a decent draw.
 

jsireland

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Sep 1, 2003
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I remember that now that you mention it, good catch. I'd lean towards subbing in an aging Italy, I really like our matchup with Ghana's lack of firepower. I'm nervous about Argentina, they're sporadic and haven't been convincing, but our defense against Messi doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

It is surprising that they went with the rankings, but as you said, it's probably only a matter of what "formula" gave France lower than #8. What sucks is that over the next 2 to 3 cups, we probably won't be good enough to be seeded. Therefore, we'll likely be in a pot with a Top 8, Africa, and Europe. Tough to progress there.
 

Maroon Eagle

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May 24, 2006
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...not a shocker that the French were unseeded considering the handball brouhaha. I'm a little surprised the Dutch were ahead of the Portuguese.

Edited for clarity.
 

KurtRambis4

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Aug 30, 2006
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get screwed.Worst-case WC draw scenario for US: Brazil, France, Ivory Coast. Best: South Africa, Greece, Uruguay
 

Maroon Eagle

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Dream Group: South Africa, United States, Slovenia, Uruguay

Nightmare Group: Brazil, United States, France, Cameroon
 

msubullie4life

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Jun 4, 2007
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I've broken down each pot into 3 divisions from really tough to easy. The groupings were made depending on history, players, managers, current form from what I've seen in the last few months' friendlies/qualifiers, recent WC performances, etc. No calculations were involved.

Pot 1:
Brazil/Spain/Netherlands/England/Germany
Argentina/Italy
South Africa

Pot 2:
US/Mexico/Australia
Honduras/Japan/South Korea
North Korea/New Zealand

Pot 3:
Ivory Coast/Chile
Cameroon/Nigeria/Paraguay/Uruguay
Ghana/Algeria

Pot 4:
France/Portugal
Denmark/Switzerland/Serbia
Slovakia/Slovenia/Greece

Notes:

- Italy is aging, as jsireland pointed out. Their defense is not what they used to be. Hence, I moved them to the mid-tier of Pot 1. But if the defensive machines start to click they can score just 3 or 4 goals in the whole tournament and win the whole damn thing.
- Argentina's managerial skills (or the lack-thereof) would nearly cancel out their star power.
- Australia smashed the Asian competition, plus they looked very good in the previous WC but nothing in Pot 2 should matter to us.
- I had no idea on how to group Pot 3. Chile and Ivory Coast breezed through the qualifiers. Ivory Coast just played a 2-2 draw vs Germany plus, Ivory Coast has Drogba. Since I only watched the last 2 African qualifiers involving Algeria and Egypt (Algeria did not look very good from what I saw) and since I don't know much about the other African teams, I'd take jsireland's word on Ghana's lack of firepower and grouped them with Ghana as easy teams. Cameroon and Nigeria may be as good as Ivory Coast, if not better, but I haven't seen them play recently.
- I watched a fair bit of the European qualifiers and friendlies recently and I grouped them according to what I saw. I looked up the FIFA rankings (Link) after I made these groupings and I was surprised to see that Greece is currently ranked above the US. They looked horrible in the qualifiers and playoffs. I have no idea how they are ranked in the top 12.

Thoughts? Comments?

Based on this,
best case scenario: USA, South Africa, Paraguay/Uruguay, Slovakia/Slovenia/Greece
worst case scenario: USA, Brazil/Spain/Netherlands/England/Germany, Ivory Coast/Chile, France/Portugal
 

MSUCostanza

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Jan 10, 2007
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We will get jacked up, no doubt about it. Although, I'm not sure it really matters. Our back four has been horrible lately.

It'll be something stupid like us, England, Portugal and Ivory Coast, and we will get drilled 3 times and go home. Obviously I am not very optimistic.
 

msubullie4life

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Jun 4, 2007
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but seriously I think, with or without Ronaldo, Portugal is beatable if we end up in their group as long as FIFA and the refs don't conspire to get them into round 2. If I had to choose between France and Portugal in our group, I'd go with Portugal.
 

patdog

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May 28, 2007
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msubullie4life said:
but seriously I think, with or without Ronaldo, Portugal is beatable if we end up in their group as long as FIFA and the refs don't conspire to get them into round 2.
As if FIFA and the refs wouldn't conspire to get Portugal into round 2. Good one.
 

jsireland

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Sep 1, 2003
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and really interesting to read and talk about. I suppose we'll have all the answers in a couple days, but for now we can speculate and hope not to get screwed too badly.

Pot 1:
I agree with your breakdowns generally. The only thing I would add is that South Africa, while the most attractive team on paper, will have tons of home and possible referee support. And while Italy could get it together at any time, they had a disappointing Euro 2008 and have done nothing but age since then. Sure, they were undefeated in qualifying, but they probably had the weakest group outside of the Netherlands. I'm not sure of their firepower anymore either, Luca Toni doesn't even play for FC Bayern anymore. Scored something less than a goal a game in Euro 2008 too, I think. When it comes down to it, I'd rather have South Africa, but I wouldn't be shaking with Italy. Argentina, if they can just play, could be dangerous. Maradona is a nut, but once they get their talent on the field, could be dangerous. At the top of the pot, I'd place Spain, England, and Germany, who have all been playing well. I'd put Brazil (sporadic in qualifying) and Netherlands (trouble on defense, tremendously weak qualifying group) a bit lower. With Brazil seeming to take it back a notch, the Dutch might be the most entertaining to watch in the whole tournament.

Pot 2:
Haven't seen much other than results, don't suppose it matters until we have a potential bracket anyway. Australia was very competitive, and Mexico turned it around after struggling to start. Of all the teams in the World Cup, your middle tier teams won't frighten anyone, and a New Zealand in your group would be positively delightful.

Pot 3:
I'd rearrange your Pot 3 a bit, bumping Cameroon and Nigeria up a tier. Don't watch much South American qualifying so no comments there, other than to say avoid Chile. Cameroon and Nigeria are solid, Cameroon having the better time lately, quick look at the Fifa rankings has them at 11th. Watched the Ivory Coast - Germany match myself, don't know how much you can say about it. First match after Enke's suicide, lots of reserves on both sides, Germany subbed keepers at the half, crazy goal by Neuer/Eboue, no Drogba for the Ivory Coast either (and yet, he looked perfectly healthy against Arsenal on Sunday). All that to say, I think they are a strong team as well. I watch the Algeria - Egypt game as well, they didn't look very impressive at all. Perhaps I'm bashing Ghana too much, but I saw a game or two of theirs and they're pretty weak up front, at least players that play anywhere. Essien in the middle of the field, but up front they have nobody I've heard of. And as it seems our difficulties are in the defensive side of the field, I'd prefer trying to handle them than a Drogba or Eto'o.

Pot 4:
Watch lots of European qualifying and I agree on the rankings except I might switch Serbia and Greece. I'd actually rather play France than Portugal, they seem to be playing better (once Ronaldo was injured!) and France is in a massive decline. Final in 2006 to winless in EM 2008 to playoffs and the Hand of Gaul in qualifying. Denmark topped probably the toughest group, with Portugal, Sweden, and Hungary in there as well. Switzerland disappointed in EM 2008, but has turned it aroud under Hitzfeld and lost in qualifying only to Luxembourg (I'm assumed an anomaly). Greece, while never exciting anyone - including their fans - plays very solid defense and can hit well on the counter. That spells trouble against us - unable to score and defense shipping in easy goals. Perhaps I should give Serbia a bit more respect, but they missed out completely in 2008 and topped a group whose biggest competition was faltering France and - wait for it - Austria. Slovenia's in only on away goals so I might prefer them, though beating Russia is no small feat.
 

jsireland

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Sep 1, 2003
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for the reasons I mentioned. Also, add in the FIFA conspiracy angle - France shouldn't be there, and Portugal gets its fair share of calls.
 
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Their morale will be at an all-time low with the way they qualified and how much people hate their coach. It would be an historic victory. Plus Henry may be suspended for a few games.

I don't want any part of Italy. We're only going to score on counters and they can snuff that out better than anyone. Gilardino is in good form and will get them goals.