Sounds like Hal Mumme was wise to UK's predicament

[Raptureme]

Did I see where Mumme said he knew he'd never get the O-line he needed to go against most SEC D-lines and provide protection for a pocket passer.?...Therefore he had an offense designed to get rid of the ball quickly and have RB's who could catch (See Anthony White)

That's why NFL teams were concerned at first about Couch's arm strength...didn't throw downfield enough to give them a good look

Feel free to correct if I got the quote wrong

 

[gg4uk]

Mumme never said those words.

That era of offensive football has passed. Dawson doesn't even run the same offense. Dawson's line does not even line up like Mumme's. The short passing game is not even similar from the two coaches.

I personally think Stoops will go away from this scheme. This scheme does not foster a tough football team. It creates a culture of pansies.

 

[NoDef]

Mumme never said those words.

That era of offensive football has passed. Dawson doesn't even run the same offense. Dawson's line does not even line up like Mumme's. The short passing game is not even similar from the two coaches.

I personally think Stoops will go away from this scheme. This scheme does not foster a tough football team. It creates a culture of pansies.

Let's line it up and run it like LSU. I think our guys can line it up and do just as good as those 5 stars on the other side of the ball. Curry was really successful doing it here and Mumme never had an offense that moved the ball. Just how many non-traditional powers can line it up and play with a power running game?

 

[C.W.1]

heard Matt Jones say that yesterday before the game. I think Jones said Lorenzen said that

Jones' assertion about Mumme is not what I remember. There were a lot of Mumme's unorthodox philosophies I remember, i.e., no tackling in practice, not redshirting freshman, punting the ball out-of-bounds, etc. I don't remember him ever saying that about UK's offensive line. UK had good offensive lines when Couch was here. If you go back and watch a lot of Couch's games, he often had a lot of time to throw the ball. You can watch some of his games on youtube.

UK's offensive line was much better then than it has been now. There's a reason Guy Morris was promoted to HC when Mumme left. Morris' promotion was largely due to the fact he had done such a good job coaching the offensive line.

 

[NoDef]

heard Matt Jones say that yesterday before the game. I think Jones said Lorenzen said that

Jones' assertion about Mumme is not what I remember. There were a lot of Mumme's unorthodox philosophies I remember, i.e., no tackling in practice, not redshirting freshman, punting the ball out-of-bounds, etc. I don't remember him ever saying that about UK's offensive line. UK had good offensive lines when Couch was here. If you go back and watch a lot of Couch's games, he often had a lot of time to throw the ball. You can watch some of his games on youtube.

UK's offensive line was much better then than it has been now. There's a reason Guy Morris was promoted to HC when Mumme left. Morris' promotion was largely due to the fact he had done such a good job coaching the offensive line.

Mumme was very good at hiding his weaknesses. His lines were not very good, but he did make them functional at pass blocking. That's what good coaches do and get paid to do. He got rid of the ball quick and they were good at what they had to do. Receivers ran good routes, QBs where accurate in the throws he required them to make.

Morris was just a snake. He cut the rest of the staffs throat to get the job and then left the first chance he got. Mumme had said before he left that his best team was going to be the one that Morris won with.

 

[gg4uk]

Screw that. We have the right guy.

Brooks had a horrid SEC record while everyone thinks he was Saban. Good man, decent coach. That's it.

Stoops has warts but turning UK into whatever we all want is a ridiculous task. He will get it done or it can't be done, IMO

Let's line it up and run it like LSU. I think our guys can line it up and do just as good as those 5 stars on the other side of the ball. Curry was really successful doing it here and Mumme never had an offense that moved the ball. Just how many non-traditional powers can line it up and play with a power running game?

Did you really post that Mumme's offense never moved the ball? Mumme's offense always had more first downs down than our opponents and we had Mike Majors as a DC. Mumme's offense struggled in the RedZone.

The last thing I'd want is Mumme's back here. I'd a take a pro-style offense any day. Give me Woodson/Sanders over Couch/Mumme's any day. I'd take Hartline/Sanders over Bonner/Mumme. UK's offense has to have a downhill running game. Period.

 

[gamecockcat]

Let's line it up and run it like LSU. I think our guys can line it up and do just as good as those 5 stars on the other side of the ball. Curry was really successful doing it here and Mumme never had an offense that moved the ball. Just how many non-traditional powers can line it up and play with a power running game?

Sure seems like Navy doesn't have much trouble running the ball against P5 opponents and, last I looked, they don't have a lot of heavily recruited talent. It's about scheme and confusing the opponent, no necessarily having the best athletes. But, direct handoffs to the A gap time after time doesn't fool anyone and results in our RBs getting hit almost simultaneously with receiving the ball. Do we ever run a trap play, a misdirection, a reverse, a stretch play, anything other than a straight handoff into the middle of the line? The lack of creativity on offense in both the running and passing game is just mind boggling. Pass routes that, as UKErik pointed out, basically run half of the eligible receivers out of the play, a single running play in the entire playbook, etc. Frustrating to say the least.

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

It shouldn't take a genius to realize that this stupid *** offense where we have 8 players between the hashes will never work. We don't have the size of speed to compete in the sec handicapping ourselves by putting us at a schematic deficit. At least schools like baylor, Washington state, etc. have brains enough to realize they can beat the big boys with a decent scheme.

I know we have some ignorant, purist, coder fans who for some reason get off on some perverse fantasy that one day we will line up in the wishbone against Bama and "whoop" them up and down the field. That ignorant *** mentality is going to put this program in the ground.

We need a base set of 3wr, 1te (as long as we have one as good as conrad) and 1 rb. AT MOST 2 of those between the hashes. Until then, we'll continue to have a joke offense.

 

[NoDef]

Did you really post that Mumme's offense never moved the ball? Mumme's offense always had more first downs down than our opponents and we had Mike Majors as a DC. Mumme's offense struggled in the RedZone.

The last thing I'd want is Mumme's back here. I'd a take a pro-style offense any day. Give me Woodson/Sanders over Couch/Mumme's any day. I'd take Hartline/Sanders over Bonner/Mumme. UK's offense has to have a downhill running game. Period.

I think we have to be more TCU than we do LSU. If Mumme had the extra added cupcake to his schedule then we go to a bowl in three of his four years here. I would take that now minus the probation.

 

[JohnBlue]

Morris took over with one of the best O-line's UK has had iirc.

 

[wildcat1973_rivals160373]

Mike Shanahan did the same thing with the Broncos. A smaller, quicker line with zone blocking schemes vs. straight up brute strength.

 

[crazyqx83_rivals88013]

Did you really post that Mumme's offense never moved the ball? Mumme's offense always had more first downs down than our opponents and we had Mike Majors as a DC. Mumme's offense struggled in the RedZone.

The last thing I'd want is Mumme's back here. I'd a take a pro-style offense any day. Give me Woodson/Sanders over Couch/Mumme's any day. I'd take Hartline/Sanders over Bonner/Mumme. UK's offense has to have a downhill running game. Period.

This is the dumbest post I've ever read. We were successful on the ground during the rich brooks Era because we had some of the most dynamic playmaker in our history, which defenses had to respect. Little, burton, johnson, tamme, cobb, locke... those names ring a bell?

Little and locke weren't exactly running plays that Bama runs.

Geez our football fans can be an ignorant bunch.

 

[howercat]

It shouldn't take a genius to realize that this stupid *** offense where we have 8 players between the hashes will never work. We don't have the size of speed to compete in the sec handicapping ourselves by putting us at a schematic deficit. At least schools like baylor, Washington state, etc. have brains enough to realize they can beat the big boys with a decent scheme.

I know we have some ignorant, purist, coder fans who for some reason get off on some perverse fantasy that one day we will line up in the wishbone against Bama and "whoop" them up and down the field. That ignorant *** mentality is going to put this program in the ground.

We need a base set of 3wr, 1te (as long as we have one as good as conrad) and 1 rb. AT MOST 2 of those between the hashes. Until then, we'll continue to have a joke offense.

exactly,,unless you are recruiting at the same level as bama, and fielding the same caliber players as bama, u r not going to win in the trenches against them.

 

[SanAntonioCat_rivals376502]

heard Matt Jones say that yesterday before the game. I think Jones said Lorenzen said that

Jones' assertion about Mumme is not what I remember. There were a lot of Mumme's unorthodox philosophies I remember, i.e., no tackling in practice, not redshirting freshman, punting the ball out-of-bounds, etc. I don't remember him ever saying that about UK's offensive line. UK had good offensive lines when Couch was here. If you go back and watch a lot of Couch's games, he often had a lot of time to throw the ball. You can watch some of his games on youtube.

UK's offensive line was much better then than it has been now. There's a reason Guy Morris was promoted to HC when Mumme left. Morris' promotion was largely due to the fact he had done such a good job coaching the offensive line.

Very true.

 

[Poetax]

Let's line it up and run it like LSU. I think our guys can line it up and do just as good as those 5 stars on the other side of the ball. Curry was really successful doing it here and Mumme never had an offense that moved the ball. Just how many non-traditional powers can line it up and play with a power running game?

During the Curry years he won more then 5 games ONCE, it was another low moment in UK football history. I can't call that success.

 

[law1127]

Gamecockcat is exactly right in his analysis!!

 

[yoshukai]

Morris took over with one of the best O-line's UK has had iirc.

Chicken or egg . Were they highly recruited and more talented or was it because they had been coached up by Morris ? We'll never really know .

 

[brianpoe]

Mumme was very good at hiding his weaknesses. His lines were not very good, but he did make them functional at pass blocking. That's what good coaches do and get paid to do. He got rid of the ball quick and they were good at what they had to do. Receivers ran good routes, QBs where accurate in the throws he required them to make.

Morris was just a snake. He cut the rest of the staffs throat to get the job and then left the first chance he got. Mumme had said before he left that his best team was going to be the one that Morris won with.

You either received bad info on Morris' time here or are just talking out of your ***.

 

[rmattox]

Mumme never said those words.

That era of offensive football has passed. Dawson doesn't even run the same offense. Dawson's line does not even line up like Mumme's. The short passing game is not even similar from the two coaches.

I personally think Stoops will go away from this scheme. This scheme does not foster a tough football team. It creates a culture of pansies.

And will perpetuate losing at Ky. Mumme was one of the few coaches that understood reality. Ky will NEVER win consistently playing anything resembling traditional football.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

Some variation of the spread option was what UK needed with Towles. I think Barker can run it too, but I dont know about Gunnar Hoak or any of the QB recruits we're pursuing.

 

[C.W.1]

Mumme was very good at hiding his weaknesses. His lines were not very good, but he did make them functional at pass blocking. That's what good coaches do and get paid to do. He got rid of the ball quick and they were good at what they had to do. Receivers ran good routes, QBs where accurate in the throws he required them to make.

Morris was just a snake. He cut the rest of the staffs throat to get the job and then left the first chance he got. Mumme had said before he left that his best team was going to be the one that Morris won with.

You either received bad info on Morris' time here or are just talking out of your ***.

Agreed. Don't know what he is talking about. Morris kept the staff and even took them to Baylor with him. I think by his last season at Baylor all his UK assistants were gone but he kept the ones when he was here. He promoted Brent Pease from QB coach to OC (Tony Franklin has said that Morris wanted him as OC but Barnhart would not let Morris hire Franklin as OC). Goodner was kept as DC even though Mumme actually hired him.

 

[C.W.1]

And will perpetuate losing at Ky. Mumme was one of the few coaches that understood reality. Ky will NEVER win consistently playing anything resembling traditional football.

Actually, the last 3 really good offenses UK has had (2006-2007 and 2010) were fairly traditional, imo. Those UK offenses lit up SEC defenses. The 2010 team scored 34 points against national champ Auburn and 31 points against SEC East champ South Carolina. And those teams didn't have great offensive lines. Pretty sure Gary Williams Larry Warford (who was a freshman in 2010 I believe) are the only offensive linemen from those offenses who played in the NFL. UK had really good WRs and had a really good TE in 2006-2007. This year's WRs dropped a lot of passes and rarely made a great catch on top of it. Garrett Johnson is the only WR on this year's team who would see the field in those years, although Baker definitely has the talent to play with those guys but not the hands to date.

 

[Real Deal 2]

So much BS in this thread.
-Guy Morris left because MB would not commit to him and staff, I understand from both parties, Morris was interim coach who was hired by Larry Ivy. He wanted to stay in Lexington, they are there now. MB rightfully so was going to let him coach but was not going to extend or give raise. Understandable. Guy is great guy.
-The reason Navy is effective is that you do not have to have OL to block every DL or LBer. You run the read/veer type offense that allows you to not have to block, you read the 3-6 technique guys and then the outside contain. You leave these guys free so your OL can get to second level. Smart and good if you don't have OL talent that is big and strong and can control Line of scrimmage.

-Hal's offense was the Lavell Edwards BYU offense. It was mix of Bill Walsh and Mouse Davis etc..
-Hal tried to get his guys in space and let them run, how many times did he throw short of first down to watch Yeast run an extra15 yards for 1st down. It was all about getting your guys in space on LBers and making the other team make a play on Craig Yeast or Kevin Coleman, Anthony White.
-Hal said he was not worried about having a backup QB and Tim Couch being hit or hurt. He said he had never had this and offense was designed to get ball out.
-He virtually had 1or 2 running plays, draw play, sweep, Iso at times.

Dawson's offense does not look that similar, I man these zone read plays were not part of that offense.
-Hal threw to TE's, he got guys in space, Anthony White as awesome in flare routes and was great in offense.

 

[KY1WING]

Part of the offensive lines success was scheme.

I attended the first Nike coaches clinic after Mumme was named HC. i went to the breakout session on OL tech that Morriss spoke at. It was filled with HS coaches hanging on every word until he was asked about line splits. Morriss said we're starting at three feet and will try to work up to six. (Looking back that was Leach's influence as he has continued to use the wide splits)

Coach who asked the question frowned and said that won't work here. Everybody quit taking notes.

He explained that the wide splits created natural running lanes and more importantly open passing lanes. It widened the path of the outside rush making it more difficult to get to the QB before the ball got out.

The splits also created issues for defenses as it spread them out to the point where stunts and twists were difficult to properly execute and blitzs were easily identified. It also made it easier for the QB to read the defense.

And the linemen didn't have to move their men but take them in the direction they rush as the holes were already created by the spacing. Just maintain.

The whole concept seemed to be space is good and the more the better (up to a point).

It was a fairly radical idea at the time.

All that to say that they believed that gave them an advantage and did not require them to have comparably skilled linemen to make it work. Mumme later said in his session that the whole thing was born out of necessity because at Copperas Cove they rarely had football talent, but competed using basketball and baseball players for receivers (because they could catch) and converted band members for linemen. And if they had any talent it only got better.

As far as Morriss robbing from his assistants, I believe he left UK because Barnhart wouldn't give the assistants the money he thought they deserved. It wasn't so much his salary (although Baylor gave him a nice raise) but it was his assistants. This was a problem that plagued Curry as he could rarely keep an OC more than a season or two so there was no consistency in the program.

I think as far as coordinators that isn't as big a problem as it once was but maybe things have swung too far the other way as their contracts prevent us from firing them when necessary because we can't afford the buyout (Steve Brown-RIck Minter).

 

[tbrooster]

Offensively, you have to be proficient at running OR passing. That which you are not proficient will benefit due to the defenses' uncertainty. Run sets up pass, OR pass sets up run. If you are NOT proficient at either, the defense can simply take one away knowing that in an 80 yard drive you will inevitably shoot yourself in the foot. JMO!

 

[OHIO COLONEL]

As I recall, Mumme brought his offensive scheme with him from Valdosta State. Had nothing to do with UK or Uk's ability to get the big hogs on the line to battle the DLs of the SEC. After being in the SEC for a year or two he may have said it, but I don't think it influenced on how he ran his offense. May have just re-enforced his original thoughts on how to run an offense.

 

[TeoJ]

Did I see where Mumme said he knew he'd never get the O-line he needed to go against most SEC D-lines and provide protection for a pocket passer.?...Therefore he had an offense designed to get rid of the ball quickly and have RB's who could catch (See Anthony White)

That's why NFL teams were concerned at first about Couch's arm strength...didn't throw downfield enough to give them a good look

Feel free to correct if I got the quote wrong

Hal Mumme was wise to very few things,people forget the second time thru the SEC his offense was wellllll offensiive

 

[C.W.1]

So much BS in this thread.
-Guy Morris left because MB would not commit to him and staff, I understand from both parties, Morris was interim coach who was hired by Larry Ivy. He wanted to stay in Lexington, they are there now. MB rightfully so was going to let him coach but was not going to extend or give raise. Understandable. Guy is great guy.
-The reason Navy is effective is that you do not have to have OL to block every DL or LBer. You run the read/veer type offense that allows you to not have to block, you read the 3-6 technique guys and then the outside contain. You leave these guys free so your OL can get to second level. Smart and good if you don't have OL talent that is big and strong and can control Line of scrimmage.

-Hal's offense was the Lavell Edwards BYU offense. It was mix of Bill Walsh and Mouse Davis etc..
-Hal tried to get his guys in space and let them run, how many times did he throw short of first down to watch Yeast run an extra15 yards for 1st down. It was all about getting your guys in space on LBers and making the other team make a play on Craig Yeast or Kevin Coleman, Anthony White.
-Hal said he was not worried about having a backup QB and Tim Couch being hit or hurt. He said he had never had this and offense was designed to get ball out.
-He virtually had 1or 2 running plays, draw play, sweep, Iso at times.

Dawson's offense does not look that similar, I man these zone read plays were not part of that offense.
-Hal threw to TE's, he got guys in space, Anthony White as awesome in flare routes and was great in offense.

Great post. If you watch Mumme's offense at UK, Couch almost always had an option to dump ball to if there was a strong pass rush. Mumme was never concerned about his QB getting hurt and he gave the backup virtually no reps. Anthony White was awesome in that offense. UK used Horton some in the first half like White was used but even then it was more of a screen pass to Horton. White ran a lot of short slants for Couch and would kill defenses doing it.

 

[drmikepugh]

Did you really post that Mumme's offense never moved the ball? Mumme's offense always had more first downs down than our opponents and we had Mike Majors as a DC. Mumme's offense struggled in the RedZone.

The last thing I'd want is Mumme's back here. I'd a take a pro-style offense any day. Give me Woodson/Sanders over Couch/Mumme's any day. I'd take Hartline/Sanders over Bonner/Mumme. UK's offense has to have a downhill running game. Period.

I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

Our last 2 OC's have robbed a struggling/overmatched OL of their biggest weapon - the snap count. In the SEC, against these DL, we need every advantage we can get. A snap count is the biggest. I dont understand our refusal to move under center and use it; at least on early downs.

 

[rmattox]

Hal Mumme was wise to very few things,people forget the second time thru the SEC his offense was wellllll offensiive

It wasn't his offense that didn't work. He had a qb that could not throw the ball 50 yards in the air. Defenses knew Bonner was no threat when it came to deeper routes, thus they were able to jam the line taking away the run and shorter passes. His offense would have worked beautifully with Lorenzen.

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

It wasn't his offense that didn't work. He had a qb that could not throw the ball 50 yards in the air. Defenses knew Bonner was no threat when it came to deeper routes, thus they were able to jam the line taking away the run and shorter passes. His offense would have worked beautifully with Lorenzen.

Lorenzen didnt play under Mumme?

 

[MudererofCrows]

Hal Mumme was wise to very few things,people forget the second time thru the SEC his offense was wellllll offensiive

Because the lineman Curry and co. recruited started to cycle out. Say what you want about Curry but he left Mumme talent that he utilized to a better degree than Curry did. Curry's staff recruited the offensive side of the ball pretty well IMHO.

I sometimes wonder if Curry had been given an OC with a little more "innovation" could he have had success here? What if Tommy Bowden hadn't been hired away by Pat Dye?

 

[TJS4UK]

His offense would have worked beautifully with Lorenzen.

Actually, JLO did play QB for him & it worked so well that UK went 2-9!! I watched a 7-5 Ole Miss team absolutely clobber Mumme's UK team down in Oxford that year. Rick Petri's DLine seemed to camp out in the UK backfield that day & UK's D had all kinds of problems with Cuttcliffe's O. When I look back... Yikes!!! The final score was actually closer than it should've been due to a couple of late 4th quarter scores by UK after Ole Miss had called off the dogs after leading UK by 32 points. It was 35-3 with about 9 left to go in the 4th quarter.

 

[gg4uk]

Who mentioned running it like LSU?

Just because I don't buy into the Mumme era doesn't mean a thing. I don't think you understand the effects of the Mumme era.

Mumme's system was great when everyone was playing Running football. Defenses were not designed to stop the spread. However, times have changed. Mumme's teams put up great yardage numbers. However, they didn't score anymore point than the others. Not consistently at least.

The down side to this scheme is that your defense has to play against a soft passing offense. The end result is a defense that can't stop a high school team. Mumme's system promoted a weak culture and soft football team.

I'd take the Guy Morris, Brent Pease, John Goodner style team over Mumme Major any day. I'd also take Brooks,Joker,Sanders etc for the same reasons. The culture that style of play fosters a tougher football team. Period!

 

[TJS4UK]

I'd take the Guy Morris, Brent Pease, John Goodner style team over Mumme Major any day. I'd also take Brooks,Joker,Sanders etc for the same reasons. The culture that style of play fosters a tougher football team. Period!

I totally agree. IMHO... A healthy 2007 team & the 2002 Guy Mo team with Lorenzen, Toose, Boone, Abney, Robertson, Sweat Pea, etc. would have likely beaten the Mumme/Couch team. Toose & Little would've likely had a field day against. Major.

 

[rmattox]

Lorenzen didnt play under Mumme?

One year I think

 

[rmattox]

Actually, JLO did play QB for him & it worked so well that UK went 2-9!! I watched a 7-5 Ole Miss team absolutely clobber Mumme's UK team down in Oxford that year. Rick Petri's DLine seemed to camp out in the UK backfield that day & UK's D had all kinds of problems with Cuttcliffe's O. When I look back... Yikes!!! The final score was actually closer than it should've been due to a couple of late 4th quarter scores by UK after Ole Miss had called off the dogs after leading UK by 32 points. It was 35-3 with about 9 left to go in the 4th quarter.

J Lor was a freshman I believe. That group ultimately made a good team. Mumme predicted as much

 

[bigblueinsanity_rivals250340]

One year I think

Thats what I thought. The year Mumme started him over Bonner.

 

[TJS4UK]

J Lor was a freshman I believe. That group ultimately made a good team. Mumme predicted as much

That was a very good team, but I am of the opinion that it would not have been nearly as good under Mumme. The SEC had already figured out how to slow or stop Mumme at that point.

Also, that 2002 team actually ran it more than they threw it! Mumme would not have done that! Toose running over people was what made the O click & it allowed Lorenzen to really shine.

Also, that defensive unit was not soft like Mumme's D's. Part of that was the DC, but I think that it was also because of them practicing against Pease's power running attack with Toose & a big, physical receiver (Boone).

Bottom line... That team was not a Mumme Style Air-raid team.