Stock Market and tariffs

[UKGrad93]

The Dave Ramsey Foundation has done numerous studies and analysis of the middle/lower classes feeling the pinch. Yes, there is absolutely an issue with lack of rising salaries and rising costs of necessities, but the largest issue BY FAR is cultural and decision making.......by a large margin.....


For example,

Often people say things like the following, "In the 1950s a single middle income family could afford a house, etc, etc, etc. But now you can't do that.......Look at the prices of the house, cars, etc.........."

In the 1950s, the average male would graduate HS and immediately start working full time somewhere.....let's say a factory. So, from agea 18-23 they are making good money and getting a head start. Today often, a large portion of people aged 18-23 are not making good money but trying to fumble through college for a gen-ed degree that won't amount to much.

In the 1950s the average debt/bills/costs would be a mortgage, a single car payment, and utilities.....no credit cards and no personal/education debt. People didn't go out to eat much at all. Much of the groceries were canned and boxed goods as opposed to fresh/organic, lots of choices, etc. People drove an average of about 6,000-8,000 miles/year on the 1 family car. Now a days people feel the need to have 2-4 cars per household and drive 15,000-20,000 miles/year. There were no cell phone or internet bills. No costco, amazon, gym memberships. No TV/streaming bills. Houses were tiny.....and most didn't have AC at that time (AC wasn't widespread in houses until the 60's and beyond). Cars didn't have AC, tons of safety equipment, computers, complicated drivetrains, etc. People could do a lot of the maintenance on their houses/cars themselves. No $7 coffee or ice cream runs.

People were more likely to relocate for their jobs so that they could live. They didn't try to live in a high cost urban area on a poor budget. Kids didn't get new clothes every year....and often lived off hand-me-downs. The average number of clothing items in the average mother's closet was <10 items/dresses. Vacations were low budget and often were staycations. The parents of the people in the 1950s went through the Great Depression. As a result, the people of the 1950s were conditioned to save (money and junk) what they could whenever they could. On, and on, and on, and on.


The point being that 95% of all the expenses that I listed above are choices.....not necessities. And there are so many more that I didn't even list. These are all barriers to wealth. The wealth inequalities that we see today would still be there.....as they will always be there.......but it wouldn't nearly as pronounced as they are if better choices were made.

Didn't the US have a pretty good leg up on manufacturing at that time due to the rest of the world being rubble from WWII?

 

[rudd1]

-I'm just glad people are paying attention now. Just as tariffs are not *really* free/are passed to consumers... neither are corporate taxes. Corporations just pass the burden to consumers.

^let's try to remember that when folks start bitching about corporate taxes/fair share blah blah blah.

-consumption tax>>income tax.

-also, maybe folks will realize that dependence/addiction to cheap Chinese/se Asian plastic ******** is unhealthy... and buy less junk. Fingers crossed.

 

[Ron Mehico]

The Dave Ramsey Foundation has done numerous studies and analysis of the middle/lower classes feeling the pinch. Yes, there is absolutely an issue with lack of rising salaries and rising costs of necessities, but the largest issue BY FAR is cultural and decision making.......by a large margin.....


For example,

Often people say things like the following, "In the 1950s a single middle income family could afford a house, etc, etc, etc. But now you can't do that.......Look at the prices of the house, cars, etc.........."

In the 1950s, the average male would graduate HS and immediately start working full time somewhere.....let's say a factory. So, from agea 18-23 they are making good money and getting a head start. Today often, a large portion of people aged 18-23 are not making good money but trying to fumble through college for a gen-ed degree that won't amount to much.

In the 1950s the average debt/bills/costs would be a mortgage, a single car payment, and utilities.....no credit cards and no personal/education debt. People didn't go out to eat much at all. Much of the groceries were canned and boxed goods as opposed to fresh/organic, lots of choices, etc. People drove an average of about 6,000-8,000 miles/year on the 1 family car. Now a days people feel the need to have 2-4 cars per household and drive 15,000-20,000 miles/year. There were no cell phone or internet bills. No costco, amazon, gym memberships. No TV/streaming bills. Houses were tiny.....and most didn't have AC at that time (AC wasn't widespread in houses until the 60's and beyond). Cars didn't have AC, tons of safety equipment, computers, complicated drivetrains, etc. People could do a lot of the maintenance on their houses/cars themselves. No $7 coffee or ice cream runs.

People were more likely to relocate for their jobs so that they could live. They didn't try to live in a high cost urban area on a poor budget. Kids didn't get new clothes every year....and often lived off hand-me-downs. The average number of clothing items in the average mother's closet was <10 items/dresses. Vacations were low budget and often were staycations. The parents of the people in the 1950s went through the Great Depression. As a result, the people of the 1950s were conditioned to save (money and junk) what they could whenever they could. On, and on, and on, and on.


The point being that 95% of all the expenses that I listed above are choices.....not necessities. And there are so many more that I didn't even list. These are all barriers to wealth. The wealth inequalities that we see today would still be there.....as they will always be there.......but it wouldn't nearly as pronounced as they are if better choices were made.

Yes I agree with all this, but it’s the way of the world. People in the 1800s felt people in the 1900s with electricity were spoiled, people in the 1700s thought those in the 1800s were spoiled with toilets, etc. I mean it will always improve and people will continue to make more and more **** for people to consume and buy to keep making a living. Just like when the original hunter gatherers started trading with other nomadic groups and realized one group could make spear tips to trade with another group for animal pelts and both could benefit. But at the end of the day, the way this country is going, we can’t keep letting the income equality gap keep growing and growing like it is. Its caused the fall of countless empires.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

-I'm just glad people are paying attention now. Just as tariffs are not *really* free/are passed to consumers... neither are corporate taxes. Corporations just pass the burden to consumers.

^let's try to remember that when folks start bitching about corporate taxes/fair share blah blah blah.

-consumption tax>>income tax.

-also, maybe folks will realize that dependence/addiction to cheap Chinese/se Asian plastic ******** is unhealthy... and buy less junk. Fingers crossed.

Problem is, still goes back to the "rules for thee" issue. It's easy for me to tell everyone not to buy cheap Chinese knockoff ****, much harder in practice.

Lack of accountability and an entitle mindset are just some of the many problems facing modern society.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a $470 order coming from Oriental Trading..

 

[BankerCat12]

CPI numbers came out this morning and were lower than expected which is great news for people wanting lower rates. Unfortunately, kicking the can down the street for 90 days in regards to tariffs is delaying this. Hopefully the admin and countries can figure this out sooner than 90 days so we can get back to some type of normalization. The 10yr treasury moved nearly 70bps in 3 business days which is insane. On a residential 30yr fixed, we went from 6.25% on Friday morning to 7% yesterday.

Rick Santelli (who I really like on CNBC) was saying this proves the tariff's isnt having an impact on inflation. Shocked he would have made this assumption as this data was for March which clearly would not have been impacted. I thought for sure someone would have called him out on that comment but they did not.

For the record, I am fine with Trump shaking everything up.

 

[Bill Derington]

Why are we arguing this, yes, it's "free" to tariff someone, except it isn't because consumers pay for tariffs, so we're paying either way.

Do you agree or disagree that all of the companies Trump listed are coming here because he announced tariffs in the past two months? Because that's what he claimed and I pointed out why that is unlikely true. I admitted that it's probably a cause moving forward, but there were also incentives prior to his tariffs that resulted in an uptick in AI/chip/server manufacturing plants coming to the US.

You have a choice to pay for it, and that doesn't take into account Countries eating the tariff instead of losing the US market place, thats what China did Trumps prior admin, as well as ship through other countries. When Govt money is given we have no say in whether it costs us, it just does.

IDK, there's no guarantee they're going to get the CHIPS money, and Trump had made it well known tariffs were going to be installed, probably both played a part.

 

[rudd1]

Problem is, still goes back to the "rules for thee" issue. It's easy for me to tell everyone not to buy cheap Chinese knockoff ****, much harder in practice.

Lack of accountability and an entitle mindset are just some of the many problems facing modern society.

-nah... it can be done, note the word "less". I phrased it that way for a reason.

^it takes a little thought/change of mindset. I understand folks are busy/tired... again why I said "less", any reduction is good. As always mitigation beats inaction... even if it doesn't eliminate a problem.

 

[lz]

GEV has held up pretty well in that 245-255 area ... VST has done alright in that low 90's area, just a little concerned about whether the data center demand will stick, but the PE is good.

Believe data center demand will stick, not sure why but VST has lost favor recently, sold some shares this morning, bought some more MCK, which is holding up well despite the tariffs, same for AZO.

 

[lz]

There is a Uranium enrichment plant being built in Western KY right now, I hope they can find people able and willing to do the work....

Most interesting since I’m from that area originally, thank you, here’s an article below, an updated story mentioned that as part of the plan, data centers will be built, starting late 2025, operational by 2027, so they certainly anticipate having workers to fill 3,000 jobs:

https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/las...cle_cfe4434c-acc3-11ef-981e-3b4dc04ca15c.html

 

[BlueRaider22]

Yes I agree with all this, but it’s the way of the world. People in the 1800s felt people in the 1900s with electricity were spoiled, people in the 1700s thought those in the 1800s were spoiled with toilets, etc. I mean it will always improve and people will continue to make more and more **** for people to consume and buy to keep making a living. Just like when the original hunter gatherers started trading with other nomadic groups and realized one group could make spear tips to trade with another group for animal pelts and both could benefit. But at the end of the day, the way this country is going, we can’t keep letting the income equality gap keep growing and growing like it is. Its caused the fall of countless empires.

Sure, but the point is that a large reason for the income equality gap is due to poor choices of the middle/lower class. It is certainly NOT the only reason, but it's certainly a very large reason that each individual can influence.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

Sorry to be a broken record here but messaging matters. Republican senators are asking who's neck gets choked if this is a massive mistake and we were only two days in.

If Trump announces new tariffs why would any other country respond if they know he will eventually cave, which is the 3rd time this year by the way.

Also, I haven't heard any updates on new trade deals, so why did we just carve 8 trillion out of the stock market?

It's mind boggling people have this take.

1. This was always about China, but he went on a roundabout way to get there to make it look like it wasn't all about China. Also, he still has a 10% tariff on everybody that wasn't there before. So it's not that he "backed down". The only people who say this just don't like Trump and/or are stupid.
2. Notice they bring up no alternatives? It's just status quo and stuff like "Americans don't want to make stuff" or "I should be able to buy the lowest cost thing I want to hell with American workers". Or even worse, "this is just how the economy works and if China wins they win". Or the worst of all: "Actually, things are really good for the American workers right now. You just don't realize it." Can you imagine being that type of person. How purely despicable you'd have to be. Lower than low.
3. Lastly, what kind of piece of **** looks to gains or losses in the stock market these days knowing full and well that we're basically dumping $2T of debt into the economy each year. And we're at $37T overall. There's your stock market value. Plain and simple. Again, absolutely DISGUSTING people. Or just DUMB.

 

[Ron Mehico]

Sure, but the point is that a large reason for the income equality gap is due to poor choices of the middle/lower class. It is certainly NOT the only reason, but it's certainly a very large reason that each individual can influence.

I think we’re talking about different things. I understand that people make stupid choices (like my earlier point that during the student loan debt pause people actually came away with MORE debt somehow) . You’re talking about net worth inequality. I’m talking about income inequality, i.e. the money they bring in before expenses.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

Sure, but the point is that a large reason for the income equality gap is due to poor choices of the middle/lower class. It is certainly NOT the only reason, but it's certainly a very large reason that each individual can influence.

Jesus Christ this is a dumb take. Some of you are going to deserve the French Revolution like uprising guillotine executions that will happen if this keeps up.

 

[lz]

It's mind boggling people have this take.

1. This was always about China, but he went on a roundabout way to get there to make it look like it wasn't all about China. Also, he still has a 10% tariff on everybody that wasn't there before. So it's not that he "backed down". The only people who say this just don't like Trump and/or are stupid.
2. Notice they bring up no alternatives? It's just status quo and stuff like "Americans don't want to make stuff" or "I should be able to buy the lowest cost thing I want to hell with American workers". Or even worse, "this is just how the economy works and if China wins they win". Or the worst of all: "Actually, things are really good for the American workers right now. You just don't realize it." Can you imagine being that type of person. How purely despicable you'd have to be. Lower than low.
3. Lastly, what kind of piece of **** looks to gains or losses in the stock market these days knowing full and well that we're basically dumping $2T of debt into the economy each year. And we're at $37T overall. There's your stock market value. Plain and simple. Again, absolutely DISGUSTING people. Or just DUMB.

So, small investors should feel guilty about trading stocks because of Debt piled up by decisions of several Administrations in DC over many years? None of us nobodies should be happy about the deficit, but maybe you’re DUMB for investing too conservatively!

 

[BlueRaider22]

Jesus Christ this is a dumb take. Some of you are going to deserve the French Revolution like uprising guillotine executions that will happen if this keeps up.

Please explain how it's not one of the reasons.....

 

[lz]

Jesus Christ this is a dumb take. Some of you are going to deserve the French Revolution like uprising guillotine executions that will happen if this keeps up.

Dumb? I think he was just pointing out how buying habits have changed since the 1950s, and he’s right, I got 3 or 4 gifts under the tree on Christmas Day, today I see dozens of gifts for kids of my young relatives who aren’t rich. He wasn’t trying to solve world problems, me, either.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

So, small investors should feel guilty about trading stocks because of Debt piled up by decisions of several Administrations in DC over many years? None of us nobodies should be happy about the deficit, but maybe you’re DUMB for investing too conservatively!

No, you shouldn't feel guilty about making money in the market.

But you should feel guilty if when the president is trying to right the ship on our economy (reduce debt, and shift manufacturing to the US, and help the bottom 90%) your response is: "you caused my stocks to drop 10% how dare you".

So if that's how you look at it you are a piece of ****.

And by the way, I am the guy taking European vacations while others suffer. And when I look in the mirror I feel like a f'ing schmuck.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

Please explain how it's not one of the reasons.....

You are accusing over 80% of the population of making bad decisions. That’s insane.

 

[lz]

No, you shouldn't feel guilty about making money in the market.

But you should feel guilty if when the president is trying to right the ship on our economy (reduce debt, and shift manufacturing to the US, and help the bottom 90%) your response is: "you caused my stocks to drop 10% how dare you".

So if that's how you look at it you are a piece of ****.

And by the way, I am the guy taking European vacations while others suffer. And when I look in the mirror I feel like a f'ing schmuck.

Thank you, but I will speak for myself.
My wife and I went on a cruise of the British Isles last year on our average retirement and investing, Alaska in May, so quit patting yourself on the back.
I’ve dealt with stock market ups and downs since 1990, so no, I don’t put much blame on politicians for my own investing blunders.
I won’t accuse you of being a POS, but you must have a personality like a porcupine.

 

[BlueRaider22]

You are accusing over 80% of the population of making bad decisions. That’s insane.

Everyone makes bad decisions......so that's 100%. There isn't a person on the planet......rich or poor.....that hasn't made a decision that was not in their best financial interest. Some do it worse than others. The rich do not feel the bad decisions as much as the poor does. As someone who grew up poor, I know this first hand.


Once again, poor decision making is ONE of the many reasons for wealth inequality. This is all I said. You're welcome to educate me as to why it's not.

 

[Vismund]

It's mind boggling people have this take.

1. This was always about China, but he went on a roundabout way to get there to make it look like it wasn't all about China. Also, he still has a 10% tariff on everybody that wasn't there before. So it's not that he "backed down". The only people who say this just don't like Trump and/or are stupid.
2. Notice they bring up no alternatives? It's just status quo and stuff like "Americans don't want to make stuff" or "I should be able to buy the lowest cost thing I want to hell with American workers". Or even worse, "this is just how the economy works and if China wins they win". Or the worst of all: "Actually, things are really good for the American workers right now. You just don't realize it." Can you imagine being that type of person. How purely despicable you'd have to be. Lower than low.
3. Lastly, what kind of piece of **** looks to gains or losses in the stock market these days knowing full and well that we're basically dumping $2T of debt into the economy each year. And we're at $37T overall. There's your stock market value. Plain and simple. Again, absolutely DISGUSTING people. Or just DUMB.

1.) Roundabout way of locking in on China? You realize he could have just slapped the 145% tariff on China and just done a blanket 10% tariff on the rest of the world from the jump, right? It's why this is such a risk. The markets are getting hammered again today. It's not just about "my 401k bro" , people are starting to lose their jobs or get furloughed now because of uncertainty. He absolutely backed down from his ridiculous tariff numbers because of the bond market. There's absolutely no one that believes he slapped those higher tariffs on just to remove them after 24 hours as a targeted plan. He's playing chicken with Wall St. and Main St.

2.) I don't recall saying any of those straw men you decided to throw up there, but others may have (at least I didn't intend to because I don't agree with those statements). Many of those who appear to dislike these tariffs are pointing out that our economy has changed, as has the perception of what we want to do for work. If Trump wants to ban trade with China, which he effectively wants to at least stymy, it's his right to do so since Congress handed him the reins. He'll get the credit if it works but he deserves the criticism in the short term since the messaging keeps changing and CEO's and small businesses depend on his word right now to make decisions moving forward. You know that as much as anyone.

3.) The market moved 44T last year. Assuming your 2T figure is accurate, which I'll concede because I'm not looking it up right now, that's less than 5% of the volume in the stock market. You guys keep saying the government is propping up the stock market but you can just look it up to see what's happening. The run of growth we've had since 2008 is unprecedented, will likely never happen again in our lifetime. Everyone knows a correction is due, but we don't know when or how. We took off by unleashing technology, service and finance and leading the world in those sectors. If Trump was running on causing the correction for us to "take our medicine" I'm not aware of it. Every other indicator for our economy was fine but we definitely have a wage issue and income inequality issue. I'm not sure how all of this volatility, even if it achieves what they want in the next 2-4 years, fixes those issues in the near term, much less inflation and housing.

 

[Beatle Bum]

And that “debt” is backed by the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.

Do you think that is a good long term perspective?

 

[Beatle Bum]

On that point we agree, and I have a considerable amount in the market. Been investing since high school (almost 50 years ago) and every time the market has tanked in my lifetime (1987, 2000, 2008-09, and 2020), in the long run the smartest thing to do was "NOTHING".

The market was due to correct, had gone up 20% or more two years in a row, one of the best 2 year runs in history, so I am not worried at all about a normal correction, that is just Wall Street being Wall Street. I will say this particular drop was self inflicted, so it is not fair to say that the market was ONLY just correcting. Thursday and Friday were one of the top 3 or 4 worst 2 day drops in history, it is actually quite rare to drop more than 5% two days in a row. Actually, I did sell some stock about four months ago, after the election, to prepare for what I thought would be a correction + the uncertainty and chaos that I expected from the new administration. Glad I did because we now have 2 or 3 years worth of income in cash and bonds, so I really don't have to worry too much about the market this week.

It is no secret how I feel about Trump, but my WAG is that some deals will be cut over the next few weeks and months, and he will promote it like it is the greatest deal in the whole world, just like the USMCA was promoted by him, only now it was a bad deal.

In any event, if I had to bet, we will be largely past this tariff issue by summer or early fall.

I hope.

So, you predict nothing substantially good comes from this approach to trade imbalances?

If so, what would have to occur for you to praise Trump, as he praises himself, in the future?

 

[Beatle Bum]

For years are your words, not mine. But it was reported that the EU offered 0 for 0 tariffs back in early March and were rejected. Given that Trump stated he also wants 350b in energy sold in the EU or the tariffs stay, it makes you wonder if this was about reciprocal tariffs or just strong arming industry.

The "it just is" comment is exactly that. A trade deficit is about a consumer, not trade policy. If China makes something that industry wants to, and can, sell for a profit, there isn't a policy change that can really change that. It's why tariffs on Vietnam seem foolish because they can do things (with the labor force and lack of environmental restrictions) that we simply can't.

Omitting China, who steals our IPs and is a bad faith trade partner, how are Mexico and Canada ripping us off? They abide by the USMCA that Trump signed. I know Brian thinks that was a mistake but I don't see how slapping tariffs on them fixes trade when you already did this to get a deal done.

I just don't buy that everyone is ripping us off. Our debt has a lot more to do with how we manage entitlements, our military industrial complex and straight pork barrel spending than international trade.

Edit : To respond to your edit, I will also note that I just follow a few economists (both conservative and liberal) and have a background in trading as an RIA (but no longer work in that field). I'm no expert and mostly relaying the opinions of information I've consumed contextualized with my own (semi-formed) opinion. I could be way off, this could be genius and do all of the things that they claim it will do. I'd gladly eat crow as it's a benefit to our country, but it seems unlikely and will possibly cause us more harm which is why I'm concerned. Happy to talk with someone about it though, many in my immediate family hate financials.

Listening to Bessent, who many thought as brilliant before aligning with Trump, the status quo was about to cause real harm, like precipice talk. The fact that Bessent sees a need for negotiation and change is relevant, IMO.

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

I'm seriously amazed how some of you don't get how precarious things are in the global economy. China was just getting started bro. They are 4X our population and have been moving up the value chain significantly. The old, "they'll never innovate and just keep making trinkets" idea was always ********.

@lz reminds me of my uncle who is just selfish and doesn't care about fellow Americans. Dude grew up in a time when there was no competition outside of America and therefore doesn't really the situation we're in. Sad, but typical.

I never realized how ignorant @Irish Beck was. Sad. Hey Irish, the $2T deficit that we injected into the economy each year allowed Americans to buy stuff which inflated company profits. The future earnings of the companies based on those profits is what makes up the value of the market. The total stock market is worth around $52T. So you keep blasting that $2T in each year and it's going to have a lot to do with the total value of the market.

 

[Beatle Bum]

And right on cue Trump bows to overwhelming negative response and economic pressure and pauses all tariffs except for China.

Anybody can see the brilliant well thought out strategy there.

I heard a commentator last night say focus on the objective and not the method. If the objective is met, the method is irrelevant. Kind of like watching the market every minute or getting emotional about it daily is an ignorant approach (I think you essentially said that), getting emotional day to day about Trump is the same.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Few takeaways:

- This is Trump to a T. He loves chaos, the world talking about him, and doing things very publically.
- Small business owners have likely been shitting bricks the last few days. People don't want to live on constant edge and fear of uncertainty because the POTUS wants life to be his personal show filled with drama. Going about it in this manner wasn't necessary and only caused headaches around the globe.
- Peter Navarro is apparently a retard. Folks are concerned about real life **** and a bored billionaire who craves just as much attention as Trump is calling one of the president's advisors a retard like he's in the fifth grade.
- finally, I know we've got some Trump loyalists here but if Biden had went about this the exact way Trump has, those loyalists would be raging right now. I get it - politics and whatnot but it's true.

Glad things have calmed down for a bit but this whole thing was pretty damn sloppy.

Biden? I think we should by now move past the “Biden was making decisions” fake news. Right?

 

[WayneDougan_rivals170043]

- finally, I know we've got some Trump loyalists here but if Biden had went about this the exact way Trump has, those loyalists would be raging right now. I get it - politics and whatnot but it's true.

This motherf'er right here is saying that if Biden did want Trump did (even though Biden did the exact opposite) we'd be upset. Dear Lord have mercy!

 

[lz]

I'm seriously amazed how some of you don't get how precarious things are in the global economy. China was just getting started bro. They are 4X our population and have been moving up the value chain significantly. The old, "they'll never innovate and just keep making trinkets" idea was always ********.

@lz reminds me of my uncle who is just selfish and doesn't care about fellow Americans. Dude grew up in a time when there was no competition outside of America and therefore doesn't really the situation we're in. Sad, but typical.

I never realized how ignorant @Irish Beck was. Sad. Hey Irish, the $2T deficit that we injected into the economy each year allowed Americans to buy stuff which inflated company profits. The future earnings of the companies based on those profits is what makes up the value of the market. The total stock market is worth around $52T. So you keep blasting that $2T in each year and it's going to have a lot to do with the total value of the market.

Lololololol! I’m sure during those Euro vacations that you were “unselfish” and worried about deficits and the plights of those less fortunate! BTW, did you ever hear of the Cuban missile crisis back in the late 1950s? Russia was a dangerous competitor in those days and still is.
With your great intellect why don’t you run for office, but explain how you “inject” a deficit?
I have a lot of Irish blood, so Irish Beck, who writes quite well, has that “Ignorance” kinship with me.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Everyone makes bad decisions......so that's 100%. There isn't a person on the planet......rich or poor.....that hasn't made a decision that was not in their best financial interest. Some do it worse than others. The rich do not feel the bad decisions as much as the poor does. As someone who grew up poor, I know this first hand.


Once again, poor decision making is ONE of the many reasons for wealth inequality. This is all I said. You're welcome to educate me as to why it's not.

This is the Paddock, sir! No one has made a bad decision.

 

[BlueRaider22]

This motherf'er right here is saying that if Biden did want Trump did (even though Biden did the exact opposite) we'd be upset. Dear Lord have mercy!

Agreed. As someone has been on the outside looking in at the 2 extremes going at it over the years, I also feel that the anti-Trump crowd is waaaaay more stubborn with their viewpoints.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I've finally realized what the Paddock reminds me of.. the 5-timers club on SNL. Just a bunch of pretentious a-holes. And I'm so glad to be a member.

 

[PhDcat2018]

In fairness to his point though, what is the proof that 75 countries are at the table, because Trump said they want to kiss his *** the other night? In the same speech he said he took "100's of billions of dollars from the Chinese" with his 1st administration tariffs, which still further proves he has no idea how they work (or he thinks his supporters don't). So forgive most of us who think he may be stretching the truth about that number. I think southeast Asian countries and the EU would be happy to talk deals, so there is some truth to it.

It's pretty easy to see that Bessent and Elon convinced him that Navarro was wrong and that he couldn't afford the political capital right now to keep the tariffs in place. You can call it caving or you can call it a negotiating tactic, but the timeline of reporting about Bessent meeting with him on Sunday and the Elon/Navarro war of words on Monday seem to align with that.

Bessent saying "it was always the plan" is kind of a cop out, but I'll be glad to accept that over sticking with the original plan.

I'll agree that this seemingly internal war is really bad looking. Maybe it's not truly 75 yet, but in the political thread, there was a quote by someone in the ccp willing to come to the table. If deals are made, and we are still bringing some stuff back(Trump mentioned 3 plants for automakers now being built here instead of in mexico), then the plan works. Yeah the market is volatile, but it's always been more emotional than truly about P/E ratios.

 

[vhcat70]

Most interesting since I’m from that area originally, thank you, here’s an article below, an updated story mentioned that as part of the plan, data centers will be built, starting late 2025, operational by 2027, so they certainly anticipate having workers to fill 3,000 jobs:

https://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/las...cle_cfe4434c-acc3-11ef-981e-3b4dc04ca15c.html

Good ole Dandy.

 

[vhcat70]

So, you predict nothing substantially good comes from this approach to trade imbalances?

If so, what would have to occur for you to praise Trump, as he praises himself, in the future?

I dunno, maybe fulfill his promise to end Russia's War quickly?

 

[Nightwish84]

Agreed. As someone has been on the outside looking in at the 2 extremes going at it over the years, I also feel that the anti-Trump crowd is waaaaay more stubborn with their viewpoints.

Then you haven't been reading this board long. Those here selling us on Trump's recklessness and his administration's mixed messaging as the markets tank on repeat would be saying we may not be a country anymore by weeks end and we've become an embarrassment on the world stage if this was happening under another administration. And yes, I've actually read that numerous times on the board. If you want blind loyalty, look to Bill Mitchell. I'll give Trump credit if his strategy works out but it hasn't yet. He took a hammer to the financial world, talked a big game, became Jules Winnfield with a "Be cool" tweet, then caved once he quickly realized other countries weren't going to back down. Yeah, pardon me if I don't praise him or his administration just yet.

 

[Deeeefense]

Thread has turned political.