The Clean Air Act

mule_eer

Freshman
May 6, 2002
20,438
58
48
Ya know, sometimes I just get such a kick out of some of you folks on the Left.

@moe, @bamaEER @WVUCOOPER ,@Original Mountaineer1,@Op2, among others... always seem to be ready to chime in on some debate we often get into here with facts, charts, stats, rebuttals, counter arguments, and usually bloviating soliloquies if not outright mockery of anyone of us on the Right who so much as even questions the legitimacy and/or premise of any Governmental regulation (especially if it involves the environment)

Yet, I have posted several challenges on this forum to many of you in this same group to explain to me how poor Black kids in inner cities are able to achieve fabulous academic results when private Charter and/or Parochial schools are set up and run in the same economically depressed areas that Government run schools are failing them?

Do I get any smart alec "quips" or charts or graphs demonstrating Government's success or even equality? Do I see any rebuttals, or even an explanation from you exhibitionists of Big Government incompetence as to how poor Black kids deemed to be "financially deprived" of Government spending are able to achieve academic success usually on much less funding under the non-Government run models?

No. Abject Silence. Crickets even.

Or when I post details about Trump's minority outreach to build Community banks in inner cities and create access to private capital so more minority owned small businesses can be incubated to wean poor folks who have traditionally lacked a path to entrepreneurship off of Government assistance and into lives of economic self sufficiency, I get no commentary from any of you Socialist know-it-alls...no "rebuttals" no quips, no charts, no graphs or offhanded put downs predicting or suggesting Trump is "stupid" to pursue such an 'obviously doomed' strategy for poor Black people who have depended on your failed redistribution schemes for their economic advancement the past 50 years with zero results. Where's your defense using your ready made "charts" and "graphs" showing that record of Government success? Why no Defense of your philosophy on that?

It's the same thing on almost every issue of race with you Leftist faux race sympathizers... like your indifference to the overwhelming minority support for initiatives like school choice vouchers, or your blindness to political activism in Black Churches who support things like traditional Marriage, the almost universal scorn & mockery among the Left of Black Conservatives, the main news Media's silence condemning or depicting Black racists or Black supremacists like Keith Ellison & Black Lives matter.....all that's quite OK with you charlatans.

Whenever issues of Race run counter to your Leftist orthodoxy, many of you same folks who are so loquacious jumping to the defense of almost any Big Government Leftist environmental extremism are curiously mute, deaf & dumb.

OK, so I suggest what seems to me to be a very reasonable approach of drawing up the registry of all of the EPA's current regs, and seriously re-evaluating their results, effect and/or future need for many of its duplicative or unworkable restrictions--one of you as an off-handed response posted that pic of "Ice-Cube" with the quizzical look on his face as if to imply perhaps I am just too mentally obtuse to even understand the lunacy of my uninformed suggestion.

A sort of 'pictorial racially bigoted commentary' from the kind, tolerant, open minded, compassionate, understanding Left don't you know?

Memo to you mentally schizophrenic Leftists...when you can honestly intellectually countenance the disjointed hypocrisy of your entire dystopian philosophy which has as it's underpinning a total faustian allegiance to Leviathan with all it's distorted inveterate legacy of failures, maybe on that day your arguments can be taken seriously.
And fine speech, but throwing out all EPA regs is what you suggested. Anyone who was alive anywhere near the start of the EPA should know the problem with that plan. If you want mercury and lead in your water, I suggest you get some to add to it at the tap. Some of these regs aren't up for negotiations. We've tried having industry self-police this, and we ended up with rivers and lakes on fire.

Nice use of the race card because someone posted a gif of Ice Cube giving a flabbergasted look.
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
throwing out all EPA regs is what you suggested.

No I didn't. I suggested re-evaluating all of them, and determining which if any are still needed or even are working. I did suggest that most of them we can probably do without, but we'd only know that after re-evaluation wouldn't we?

Now how about you responding to my other assertions in the "speech" about school vouchers, race, and economic opportunity zones in inner cities?
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
If you want mercury and lead in your water, I suggest you get some to add to it at the tap.

This is absurd. No one "wants" mercury in the water. Ironically, a lot of the crap that is allowed even with the stringent EPA regulations can kill you. Why do you think bottled water sales are through the roof?

EPA is doing a real fine job with what they are entrusted to regulate aren't they? Wonder how much better we could do without them?
 

dave

Senior
May 29, 2001
60,572
755
113
The typical response by liberals to all calls to reverse their ridiculous regulations and laws is to revert to the extreme. If you want to fix overregulation, you really want dirty water and mercury in your drinking water, if you think abortion is unfair to defenseless babies you want women to perform coat hanger abortions and if you want to reform social security to put it back on firm footing, you really want to take money away from old people.

Its a pretty simple playbook.
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
So you are against clean air and clean water

See this is always what the Left resorts to. No one on the Right "advocates" dirty air and dirty water.

So you're against minority kids getting a better education by giving their Parent's school vouchers?
 

mule_eer

Freshman
May 6, 2002
20,438
58
48
No I didn't. I suggested re-evaluating all of them, and determining which if any are still needed or even are working. I did suggest that most of them we can probably do without, but we'd only know that after re-evaluation wouldn't we?

Now how about you responding to my other assertions in the "speech" about school vouchers, race, and economic opportunity zones in inner cities?
Could be my misinterpretation of run them back to zero then maybe build them back up. That sounded a lot like getting rid of all regs when there are several, lead and mercury levels being a couple, that we know we need.

I don't think I've proposed or criticized any of the economic or educational solutions for the inner cities. My only grouse with vouchers is that they can be expensive and pull resources from already failing schools - schools that some students still have to attend. I'm a fan of charter schools - my daughter attends one.
 

mule_eer

Freshman
May 6, 2002
20,438
58
48
This is absurd. No one "wants" mercury in the water. Ironically, a lot of the crap that is allowed even with the stringent EPA regulations can kill you. Why do you think bottled water sales are through the roof?

EPA is doing a real fine job with what they are entrusted to regulate aren't they? Wonder how much better we could do without them?
We've seen what we could do without them. It wasn't pretty. Even Nixon recognized that.

I'm not advocating government regulations as being the best thing ever. I'm not one to trust industry to do the right thing when money is involved either. There has to be a balance. If we want to look at regs and streamline things, I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with ditching the EPA and seeing how that pans out.
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
Could be my misinterpretation of run them back to zero then maybe build them back up. That sounded a lot like getting rid of all regs when there are several, lead and mercury levels being a couple, that we know we need.

I don't think I've proposed or criticized any of the economic or educational solutions for the inner cities. My only grouse with vouchers is that they can be expensive and pull resources from already failing schools - schools that some students still have to attend. I'm a fan of charter schools - my daughter attends one.

Then you misread my suggestion. I proposed keeping EPA regs that both work and are still needed. I don't have a problem with those that are necessary to assure public health & safety, but I'm not wedded to the idea that the entire registry is either needed or effective. Some of that stuff is downright idiotic, and it wouldn't take me long to link you to plenty of them that are.

I didn't accuse you per se of being against any of Trump's proposals to rescue financially strapped inner cities, but many on the Left are yet they never defend their failures for the past 50 years.

The entire school vouchers issue is so poorly reported as to be comical.

If anything, it will save taxpayer's money because many of the schools receiving the vouchers run much more efficiently than Government schools and produce far superior results with the same or smaller budgets than most Public schools run on. Often times in the same economically distressed areas the Left is always screaming for more funds to see success. The poor or failing schools should close, they don't need anymore money!

Why is the Government the only entity that can run schools? What's wrong with competition at least, and letting Parents decide who's doing the best job educating their kids?

The Left is always against monopolies in the private sector, but totally 'gung ho' for it as long as Government is in control.

Sickening.
 
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atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
If we want to look at regs and streamline things, I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with ditching the EPA and seeing how that pans out.

I agree with you, and really that's all I ever advocated. I only suggested that after we take a hard look at all of EPA's regs (those working and those that don't) we might find we don't need most of what they are "enforcing".
 

mule_eer

Freshman
May 6, 2002
20,438
58
48
Then you misread my suggestion. I proposed keeping EPA regs that both work and are still needed. I don't have a problem with those that are necessary to assure public health & safety, but I'm not wedded to the idea that the entire registry is either needed or effective. Some of that stuff is downright idiotic, and it wouldn't take me long to link you to plenty of them that are.

I didn't accuse you per se of being against any of Trump's proposals to rescue financially strapped inner cities, but many on the Left are yet they never defend their failures for the past 50 years.

The entire school voucher's issue is so so poorly reported as to be comical.

If anything, it will save taxpayer's money because many of the schools receiving the vouchers run much more efficiently than Government schools and produce far superior results with the same or smaller budgets than most Public schools run on. Often times in the same economically distressed areas the Left is always screaming for more funds to see success. The poor or failing schools should close, they don't need anymore money!

Why is the Government the only entity that can run schools? What's wrong with competition at least, and letting Parents decide who's doing the best job educating their kids?

The Left is always against monopolies in the private sector, but totally 'gung ho' for it as long as Government is in control.

Sickening.
What happens to the cost of going to those schools with vouchers when demand increases? The price goes up. That's part of my concern. As far as cost goes charters are usually have about the same operating cost or less than the local public schools.
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
What happens to the cost of going to those schools with vouchers when demand increases? The price goes up. That's part of my concern. As far as cost goes charters are usually have about the same operating cost or less than the local public schools.

What's to suggest more schools can't be created? Demand for better schools will be met with supply of more schools. The whole idea is to foster competition for those education dollars so the kids get educated and the taxpayers get their money's worth.

More schools competing for those same education dollars might also (probably will) drive overall costs down. That's usually the effect of competition. Certainly the one-size-fits-all Government run models don't/aren't working for the vast majority of poor kids & Parents.
 

bamaEER

Freshman
May 29, 2001
32,435
60
0
It's using the absurd to defend the indefensible.
Pruitt filed two lawsuits aimed at doing away with mercury emission standards. This is very dangerous and thankfully, he lost both. This goes way beyond climate change.
 

TarHeelEer

Redshirt
Dec 15, 2002
89,286
37
48
Pruitt filed two lawsuits aimed at doing away with mercury emission standards. This is very dangerous and thankfully, he lost both. This goes way beyond climate change.

I don't care what he did as a civilian. I care what he does as a representative of our's. Isn't that the proper response to Ayers/Wright?
 

bamaEER

Freshman
May 29, 2001
32,435
60
0
I don't care what he did as a civilian. I care what he does as a representative of our's. Isn't that the proper response to Ayers/Wright?
He wasn't a civilian. He was the AG for the state of Oklahoma. The fox is officially in the hen house.
 

mneilmont

Sophomore
Jan 23, 2008
20,883
166
0
Could be my misinterpretation of run them back to zero then maybe build them back up. That sounded a lot like getting rid of all regs when there are several, lead and mercury levels being a couple, that we know we need.
Seems like you have a propensity to do that. I really believe the thinking on the board is to eliminate the new regs added on by Obama Agency. Do you not feel it is a totally asinine statement, "So you want dirty water and air"? I doubt anyone on the board is championing dirty water and air. Who on here do you think is that dumb? I have argued with most, but never accused anyone of being totally without reason. I have even called a few stupid, but have not suggested anyone was totally without intel or humanity. Damn, you have been getting tough over the past several months.
 

Bulya

Senior
May 29, 2001
10,579
471
0
See this is always what the Left resorts to. No one on the Right "advocates" dirty air and dirty water.

So you're against minority kids getting a better education by giving their Parent's school vouchers?

Pro-environment sorry. Couple easy fixes for this country.

2 Term limit for US Congress. Change House from 2 to 4 years so they are not wasting time running for re-election every year. If you are a House Rep after 2 terms you can run for the Senate and do 2 terms there or vice-versa. That gets you to 20 years and a pension. Less than 20 years NO pension or they can get a government job and their time counts toward a government pension. Change their healthcare to what everyone else in this country gets.

Mandatory Military Service- this will help your inner city problem all those kids as well as poor white kids will be forced to serve and will learn a trade or use the GI Bill for college after service. You can get a deferment for college and then serve as an officer or enlisted man for 2-4 years. This will get kids out of the slums and back woods and force them off drugs and to learn discipline and pride in themselves and our country.

Overturn Citizens United. The amount of money spend for the power to run our country is disgusting. Corporations ARE NOT people and should NOT be allowed to make political donations. Limits on personal donations as well. All candidates get "X" amount of free airtime to get their messages out and debates are still televised. Money wasted on elections could be spent on investing in our country and creating jobs and opportunities not on 24 hours a day of ******** commercials.

Healthcare Reform- Do away with private insurance companies for healthcare. Human health should NOT be for profit. Insurance companies can still make Billions on home, auto, property, liability, etc... but not on Human Lives. Taking that profit out of their pockets will lower health care costs and still be plenty of money for healthcare workers to make fair earnings. The better Doc you are the more you can make just like today but Insurance CEO's need cut out of this equation that leaves a lot of money out there to make things better and cheaper.

There are more things I would do but these would be the first steps to turning this around. Massive tax cuts for the rich, drill baby drill, gutting environmental regulations and getting into illegal wars are not the way to keep going.
 

D. Denzil Finney

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
9,391
14
0
I am sure everyone wants and needs clean air and water. The question is how clean does it have to be? Air and water had been livable before Obama regs. That is what needs to be reversed. Water and air do not have to be perfectly pristine.

Yes, I can survive without perfection. The economy has to be given some consideration. I could drink water with livable amounts of impurities. Ditto the air I breath. I simply do not want to see anyone starve to death for lack of enough money to feed themselves and their family. EPA excessive regs reportedly caused a lot of people to be unemployed the past 8 years. Those additional regs can be reversed, without doing life threatening harm to those in those industries - darter snail be damned.

Survive without perfection. Tell that to the families of Flint Michigan, The Buffalo Creek disaster, the impending disaster that could come with the failure of the Dam of Little Blur Lake in northern WV or the recent problem of the chemical spill into the Elk River in Charleston.
 

mneilmont

Sophomore
Jan 23, 2008
20,883
166
0
Survive without perfection. Tell that to the families of Flint Michigan, The Buffalo Creek disaster, the impending disaster that could come with the failure of the Dam of Little Blur Lake in northern WV or the recent problem of the chemical spill into the Elk River in Charleston.
I am trying to understand the connection between my comment, which was, "want and need clean water and air, but does not have to be perfect'. You attempt to connect ""clean" with locations that had less than clean potable water. Flint Mi water was less than clean. It, like the Elk, had been contaminated. After contamination, it is no longer clean. Buffalo Creek did not have clean water before, during nor after the flood. If you are stretching to discuss water that is contaminated, I am sure no one wants their drinking water to be impure. Would you please elaborate? Thanks.
 

TarHeelEer

Redshirt
Dec 15, 2002
89,286
37
48
Survive without perfection. Tell that to the families of Flint Michigan, The Buffalo Creek disaster, the impending disaster that could come with the failure of the Dam of Little Blur Lake in northern WV or the recent problem of the chemical spill into the Elk River in Charleston.

Thank God the mighty EPA stopped all of those.
 
Sep 6, 2013
27,594
120
0
Pro-environment sorry. Couple easy fixes for this country.

2 Term limit for US Congress. Change House from 2 to 4 years so they are not wasting time running for re-election every year. If you are a House Rep after 2 terms you can run for the Senate and do 2 terms there or vice-versa. That gets you to 20 years and a pension. Less than 20 years NO pension or they can get a government job and their time counts toward a government pension. Change their healthcare to what everyone else in this country gets.

Mandatory Military Service- this will help your inner city problem all those kids as well as poor white kids will be forced to serve and will learn a trade or use the GI Bill for college after service. You can get a deferment for college and then serve as an officer or enlisted man for 2-4 years. This will get kids out of the slums and back woods and force them off drugs and to learn discipline and pride in themselves and our country.

Overturn Citizens United. The amount of money spend for the power to run our country is disgusting. Corporations ARE NOT people and should NOT be allowed to make political donations. Limits on personal donations as well. All candidates get "X" amount of free airtime to get their messages out and debates are still televised. Money wasted on elections could be spent on investing in our country and creating jobs and opportunities not on 24 hours a day of ******** commercials.

Healthcare Reform- Do away with private insurance companies for healthcare. Human health should NOT be for profit. Insurance companies can still make Billions on home, auto, property, liability, etc... but not on Human Lives. Taking that profit out of their pockets will lower health care costs and still be plenty of money for healthcare workers to make fair earnings. The better Doc you are the more you can make just like today but Insurance CEO's need cut out of this equation that leaves a lot of money out there to make things better and cheaper.

There are more things I would do but these would be the first steps to turning this around. Massive tax cuts for the rich, drill baby drill, gutting environmental regulations and getting into illegal wars are not the way to keep going.

Well stated!
 

D. Denzil Finney

Redshirt
May 29, 2001
9,391
14
0
I am trying to understand the connection between my comment, which was, "want and need clean water and air, but does not have to be perfect'. You attempt to connect ""clean" with locations that had less than clean potable water. Flint Mi water was less than clean. It, like the Elk, had been contaminated. After contamination, it is no longer clean. Buffalo Creek did not have clean water before, during nor after the flood. If you are stretching to discuss water that is contaminated, I am sure no one wants their drinking water to be impure. Would you please elaborate? Thanks.

I was responding to and in agreement with the OP's regarding the EPA. Buffalo Creek was flooded with contaminated water via a faulty lake created by; (1) a coal waste dam; (2) many parts of the Kanawha Valley had their potable water supply contaminated by a vendor(s) who did not follow EPA guidelines; (3) Flint Michigan has their potable water supply so contaminated it flows yellow and, (4) from everything I have read, if that Little Blue Lake flyash dam fails 3 million people can/will have their water supply contaminated.

What could have been prevented at Buffalo Creek, in the Kanawha Valley and in Flint Michigan can be prevented at Little Blue Lake before it also becomes a tradgedy.

Just bluster on my part, concerning what should have been done versus what was done.
 

PriddyBoy

Junior
May 29, 2001
17,174
282
0
And fine speech, but throwing out all EPA regs is what you suggested. Anyone who was alive anywhere near the start of the EPA should know the problem with that plan.
The unhealthy situation was very obvious back then. A lot of good science went into the Acts. MCL's for drinking and surface waters were arrived at using extensive studies, not the Grant studies that are awarded these days with a preconceived conclusion in mind. We're regulating molecules to non-detectable levels or levels that are lower than naturally occurring in some instances. We should be good stewards of a healthy environment, but Environmental Zealism has gone off the rails, IMO.
 

Airport

All-Conference
Dec 12, 2001
81,873
2,029
113
The unhealthy situation was very obvious back then. A lot of good science went into the Acts. MCL's for drinking and surface waters were arrived at using extensive studies, not the Grant studies that are awarded these days with a preconceived conclusion in mind. We're regulating molecules to non-detectable levels or levels that are lower than naturally occurring in some instances. We should be good stewards of a healthy environment, but Environmental Zealism has gone off the rails, IMO.
Does the methane that cows produce fall under the EPA or the Full of **** government agency?
 

PriddyBoy

Junior
May 29, 2001
17,174
282
0
Does the methane that cows produce fall under the EPA or the Full of **** government agency?
TAX THAT COW! TAX THAT COW!
 

Keyser76

Freshman
Apr 7, 2010
11,912
58
0
The big one that Trump will get overturned is the EPA rule on Greenhouse gas emissions from power plants. That rule alone shuttered about 50% of the coal fired plants in the US. It has already been ruled unconstitutional and the Trump administration said they will no longer defend that rule at SCOTUS.
Lol, and you think they will reopen and quit using Natural Gas now? Only Trumps Chumps who never read any economic news think Coal gonna come back and bring any jobs. Maybe they will be Union jobs too? lmfao.
 

bamaEER

Freshman
May 29, 2001
32,435
60
0
Lol, and you think they will reopen and quit using Natural Gas now? Only Trumps Chumps who never read any economic news think Coal gonna come back and bring any jobs. Maybe they will be Union jobs too? lmfao.
I'm thinking we should tax natural gas heavily so coal prices become attractive. Seems fair.
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
I'm thinking we should tax natural gas heavily so coal prices become attractive. Seems fair.

I say let 'em compete in the free market. Whoever offers us the cheapest energy at market prices gets our business. Forget the artificial Government monkey business.
 

bamaEER

Freshman
May 29, 2001
32,435
60
0
I say let 'em compete in the free market. Whoever offers us the cheapest energy at market prices gets our business. Forget the artificial Government monkey business.
Exactly. Problem is Biff wants coal to thrive and I have the feeling he's planning to tip the playing field.
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
Exactly. Problem is Biff wants coal to thrive and I have the feeling he's planning to tip the playing field.

Coal will do fine on its own merits. Trump wants the artificial restrictions removed from its production so it can compete.

I think that's good for coal, good for West Virginia, and good for America.
 

atlkvb

All-Conference
Jul 9, 2004
79,964
1,887
113
Insurance companies can still make Billions on home, auto, property, liability, etc... but not on Human Lives. Taking that profit out of their pockets will lower health care costs and still be plenty of money for healthcare workers to make fair earnings

Why should Insurance companies collect premiums just to pay medical claims for folks without making a "profit"? Why be in business just to pay medical claims?

Are you also "Pro-Life"?

I'll bet you aren't. So this entire argument you post in favor of Health Insurance to preserve Human Life is just as intellectually dishonest, as it is economically ill informed.

Massive tax cuts for the rich, drill baby drill, gutting environmental regulations and getting into illegal wars are not the way to keep going.

How much more should "rich people" be forced to pay of the Nation's tax burden? Do you know how much they pay right now? Why is that not enough? Which EPA rules are Republicans proposing to "gut"? Review, yes! "Gut"? No!

If we don't provide our own energy sources, who should we rely on for it? What's the last "illegal war" we fought? Which ones should we have stayed out of? (since you said we should stay out of illegal wars(s) plural)

FYI:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-pay-most-income-taxes-but-enough-to-be-fair/