This band nerd knows chin music
- Thread starter Todd4State
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So based on your article you don't condone Cohen's actions?
Im a little confused because you say the following:
It was clear that this is exactly what happened to Katz so Im assuming you don't condone what he did here. Also, what I don't understand is that almost everyone you have mentioned regarding brushing back players and throwing at players and how it is ok, is a professional baseball code. I really don't understand how this is getting glossed over. This isn't the minors, this isn't pro ball where everyone is getting paid to put their health on the line. This is college baseball and I just have a problem with a team throwing at someone's head because he has been killing you at the plate. Im sure y'all will think it is just fine when someone goes after Renfroe's head after he hits a homer, Im sure y'all will think its just the way the game is played.
Just like you said at the bottom of your article, the best way to shut some one up is by performing on the field. You admired Pujols for dusting himself off and crushing a pitch. Wouldn't you admire the pitcher more by simply getting the job done as opposed to trying to take someone out?
Also you said the following:
Wasn't MSU stealing up 7-1 in the 7th inning?
Im a little confused because you say the following:
It was clear that this is exactly what happened to Katz so Im assuming you don't condone what he did here. Also, what I don't understand is that almost everyone you have mentioned regarding brushing back players and throwing at players and how it is ok, is a professional baseball code. I really don't understand how this is getting glossed over. This isn't the minors, this isn't pro ball where everyone is getting paid to put their health on the line. This is college baseball and I just have a problem with a team throwing at someone's head because he has been killing you at the plate. Im sure y'all will think it is just fine when someone goes after Renfroe's head after he hits a homer, Im sure y'all will think its just the way the game is played.
Just like you said at the bottom of your article, the best way to shut some one up is by performing on the field. You admired Pujols for dusting himself off and crushing a pitch. Wouldn't you admire the pitcher more by simply getting the job done as opposed to trying to take someone out?
Also you said the following:
Wasn't MSU stealing up 7-1 in the 7th inning?
Some answers
1. Graveman wasn't throwing at Katz's head- which is what I don't condone. He was trying to knock him down. Again, look at Katz's hands in relation to where the ball was thrown. What you couldn't see from the video provided by LSU was that the ball was in front of his head rather than behind. And yes, I was there. I agree with others who say that if Graveman wanted to hit him in the head or hit him period, he would have.
2. This may not be the minors, but it's still competitive baseball. This is the same thing that goes on in high school and levels below college as well. You go to law school to learn how to be a lawyer. Most of these players will play pro baseball- and because of that, they should learn how to play baseball at the pro level. I think we would be doing our players a disservice by not teaching them how to be a pro baseball player. Again he wasn't throwing at his head, so your argument is moot.
3. They didn't throw at Renfroe, but they threw at Rea, and I had no problem with it. Neither did anyone on MSU's team. I guess you will be OK with Mason Katz showing up the Ole Miss pitching staff this year as well? Yet again, he wasn't throwing at his head, so your argument is moot. If someone hits Renfroe or whatever, our team will take care of it appropriately and that will be the end of it. That's how the baseball code works. And that's why MSU wasn't mad about Rea- because by doing that, it was over at that point, and then you go on with the game.
4. After Graveman brushed Katz off the plate, he struck him out. I don't know how much more I could have expected Graveman to do as far as taking care of his job?
5. It wasn't a straight steal, but it was a ball in the dirt that their catcher didn't come up with. It could have and maybe should have been scored a wild pitch, but our official scorer is generous in MSU's favor. Believe me, if LSU had a problem with it, Manieri would have whined about it.
1. Graveman wasn't throwing at Katz's head- which is what I don't condone. He was trying to knock him down. Again, look at Katz's hands in relation to where the ball was thrown. What you couldn't see from the video provided by LSU was that the ball was in front of his head rather than behind. And yes, I was there. I agree with others who say that if Graveman wanted to hit him in the head or hit him period, he would have.
2. This may not be the minors, but it's still competitive baseball. This is the same thing that goes on in high school and levels below college as well. You go to law school to learn how to be a lawyer. Most of these players will play pro baseball- and because of that, they should learn how to play baseball at the pro level. I think we would be doing our players a disservice by not teaching them how to be a pro baseball player. Again he wasn't throwing at his head, so your argument is moot.
3. They didn't throw at Renfroe, but they threw at Rea, and I had no problem with it. Neither did anyone on MSU's team. I guess you will be OK with Mason Katz showing up the Ole Miss pitching staff this year as well? Yet again, he wasn't throwing at his head, so your argument is moot. If someone hits Renfroe or whatever, our team will take care of it appropriately and that will be the end of it. That's how the baseball code works. And that's why MSU wasn't mad about Rea- because by doing that, it was over at that point, and then you go on with the game.
4. After Graveman brushed Katz off the plate, he struck him out. I don't know how much more I could have expected Graveman to do as far as taking care of his job?
5. It wasn't a straight steal, but it was a ball in the dirt that their catcher didn't come up with. It could have and maybe should have been scored a wild pitch, but our official scorer is generous in MSU's favor. Believe me, if LSU had a problem with it, Manieri would have whined about it.
Wait, are you really trying to say that the ball didn't go right by his head?
They ball went right behind his head.
I mean at least own it.
They ball went right behind his head.
I mean at least own it.
It was at least a foot and half behind his head it looked like. Not even close. Are you a baseball fan, bc your argument sounds like one of a guy that doesn't watch much baseball in my opinion. not that there's anything wrong with that, im just asking.
It was so far off that Katz didn't even move. He would have at least ducked if it was anywhere near as close as you claim. The angle is not great to see just how far it was, but Katz's reaction tells you it wasn't very close.
It was so far off that Katz didn't even move. He would have at least ducked if it was anywhere near as close as you claim. The angle is not great to see just how far it was, but Katz's reaction tells you it wasn't very close.
Well Todd says it was in front of his head and you say foot & half behind his...
his head, so which one is it. The video speaks for itself he did move his head and the ball was clearly at head level how far behind or front it was is up for debate, but no one will debate that it was head level.
Todd made the point that he wouldn't condone someone throwing at someone's head which Kendall clearly did. Whether it was in front or behind his head, there can be no doubt that the ball was on the same plane as his head.
Yeah, I don't know much as you about baseball who likes to pretend to be LSU baseball players, but I do know when a ball is thrown at someone's head. This was, which is why the umpire warned both benches.
I don't see why y'all wouldn't just own it, y'all like this type of in face your baseball, just own it. You threw at his head and it got him off his game, just don't know try and say you didn't. I was pointing out to Todd that he can't have it both ways, you can't say that you don't condone someone throwing at someone's head but at the same time applauding Kendall's throwing at Katz. Just be consistent.
his head, so which one is it. The video speaks for itself he did move his head and the ball was clearly at head level how far behind or front it was is up for debate, but no one will debate that it was head level.
Todd made the point that he wouldn't condone someone throwing at someone's head which Kendall clearly did. Whether it was in front or behind his head, there can be no doubt that the ball was on the same plane as his head.
Yeah, I don't know much as you about baseball who likes to pretend to be LSU baseball players, but I do know when a ball is thrown at someone's head. This was, which is why the umpire warned both benches.
I don't see why y'all wouldn't just own it, y'all like this type of in face your baseball, just own it. You threw at his head and it got him off his game, just don't know try and say you didn't. I was pointing out to Todd that he can't have it both ways, you can't say that you don't condone someone throwing at someone's head but at the same time applauding Kendall's throwing at Katz. Just be consistent.
Look at it again
And stop the video around the 2-3 second mark. Also, again look at where Katz's hands are- right by his head. It was thrown a little higher than you would want to throw it.locate it, but if you are trying to hit someone, again- you are going to throw behind their head- not in front or over their head. The ball then glanced off of Slauter's glove and that is making it look like it is thrown behind him, but the reality is it was actually thrown in front of his head and not behind.
And stop the video around the 2-3 second mark. Also, again look at where Katz's hands are- right by his head. It was thrown a little higher than you would want to throw it.locate it, but if you are trying to hit someone, again- you are going to throw behind their head- not in front or over their head. The ball then glanced off of Slauter's glove and that is making it look like it is thrown behind him, but the reality is it was actually thrown in front of his head and not behind.
I wish he would've just planted one right in his back but what he did was not warranting all the fuss it's getting.
The video is an awful angle. I couldn't tell from my seats but based on the video Todd is right it wasn't behind his head. It was in front. If it was behind him Mason would have turned his head VERY quickly to watch the ball. Your instincts as a batter are to follow the ball. It's clear that it passes in front of him because he never turns to follow the ball before passing him or after. Because he already knew it went straight back. The camera is low and to the right so it looks like its behind him because the backstop is off center.
Just some analysis.
The video is an awful angle. I couldn't tell from my seats but based on the video Todd is right it wasn't behind his head. It was in front. If it was behind him Mason would have turned his head VERY quickly to watch the ball. Your instincts as a batter are to follow the ball. It's clear that it passes in front of him because he never turns to follow the ball before passing him or after. Because he already knew it went straight back. The camera is low and to the right so it looks like its behind him because the backstop is off center.
Just some analysis.
Calm down Sally, you obviously took my post in a far more offensive way than I meant it. Again, I DO NOT think Graveman "threw at his head". Based on your analysis, even if he threw it into left field but it was head high, it was "at his head", and I disagree. A guy with the precision of a starting SEC pitcher would have gotten a hell of a lot closer if he was truly "throwing at his head". He was clearly sending a message to Katz about the bat flipping. He threw it behind him to send the message, when he easily could have plunked him instead. Would you feel better had he drilled him in the upper back?
It's very obvious that he threw behind him on purpose, but it's also obvious that he was NOT "throwing at his head". No pitcher will ever throw at a guy's head on purpose, because that is a death wish for one of your teammates the next inning. You're wrong, so we're not admitting to ****.
It's very obvious that he threw behind him on purpose, but it's also obvious that he was NOT "throwing at his head". No pitcher will ever throw at a guy's head on purpose, because that is a death wish for one of your teammates the next inning. You're wrong, so we're not admitting to ****.
.
Exactly. If he'd thrown at his hip like OM seems to be saying he should have, it wouldn't have been any further from his head than that pitch was.
To me it looks like it is way behind him, Todd. Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong. But regardless, it was either too far behind him, or too high above him, to worry him too much. He didn't react like a guy getting a missile at his forehead.
I have been consistent
I said that I don't condone throwing at someone's head. (You seem to have that right)
I said that Graveman WASN'T throwing at his head and therefore it was an act that I condone also multiple times. Please show me where I said he was throwing at his head?
I said multiple times that you throw at a players hands which is what Graveman did, albeit a little high and that the reason it was near his head was because that's where Katz holds the bat. If Katz held his bat lower, then the ball would have been thrown lower. It's really not that hard. Now, most hitters do hold their bat high, and because of that most brushback pitches are going to be near a players head. The point is to send a message, so it has to have some effect to it.
So, where am I trying to have it both ways?
It seems to me that you don't understand baseball by your own admission, and therefore you really don't have a dog in the hunt even with video examples.
I said that I don't condone throwing at someone's head. (You seem to have that right)
I said that Graveman WASN'T throwing at his head and therefore it was an act that I condone also multiple times. Please show me where I said he was throwing at his head?
I said multiple times that you throw at a players hands which is what Graveman did, albeit a little high and that the reason it was near his head was because that's where Katz holds the bat. If Katz held his bat lower, then the ball would have been thrown lower. It's really not that hard. Now, most hitters do hold their bat high, and because of that most brushback pitches are going to be near a players head. The point is to send a message, so it has to have some effect to it.
So, where am I trying to have it both ways?
It seems to me that you don't understand baseball by your own admission, and therefore you really don't have a dog in the hunt even with video examples.
i do not think he was thrown at for showinv us up friday nite. he was thrown at because he was freakin on fire the first two games. and guess what? it worked...he had an o'fer on sunday. i have zero problem with it.
there is a much better chance of ending someones career when trying to break up a double play then getting hit by a pitch. where are all the folks whining about that?
there is a much better chance of ending someones career when trying to break up a double play then getting hit by a pitch. where are all the folks whining about that?
Todd, great article. What/where is the delineation of the line between knocking down a batter and hitting the batter?
So if a guy is holding the bat near his head, which almost all hitters do....
Then you throw at the hands, which just happen to be by the guys head and you are ok with that. If you had ever played baseball you would know that almost every player has their hands near their head in their stance other than Julio Franco.
I mean only the following players hold the bat near their head:
I could go on and on, but Im not because you will simply talk out of your *** saying its ok to throw at someone's hands even if that is near their head which is contrary to your original post where you said you wouldn't condone throwing at someone's head.
You are now saying that the point is to send a message, so it sounds like you actually are ok with throwing at someone's head as long as his hands are there, which of course they would be.
I was being sarcastic about baseball knowledge and no one that has actually played the game would be ok with someone throwing near someone's head, regardless of where his hands are. You can send a message without risking a player's health especially in college.
Then you throw at the hands, which just happen to be by the guys head and you are ok with that. If you had ever played baseball you would know that almost every player has their hands near their head in their stance other than Julio Franco.
I mean only the following players hold the bat near their head:
I could go on and on, but Im not because you will simply talk out of your *** saying its ok to throw at someone's hands even if that is near their head which is contrary to your original post where you said you wouldn't condone throwing at someone's head.
You are now saying that the point is to send a message, so it sounds like you actually are ok with throwing at someone's head as long as his hands are there, which of course they would be.
I was being sarcastic about baseball knowledge and no one that has actually played the game would be ok with someone throwing near someone's head, regardless of where his hands are. You can send a message without risking a player's health especially in college.
Taking one in the hip versus taking one in the head are just so different...
Whether it was a foot in front or a foot behind, no one is arguing that it wasn't head level and that is the point. I don't think college players should be throwing at player's heads to send a message, Todd agreed with me and now he is saying you can throw at someone's head as long as their hands are near their head which almost ever batter's hand will be if they are worth their salt or if they are Julio Franco.
Whether it was a foot in front or a foot behind, no one is arguing that it wasn't head level and that is the point. I don't think college players should be throwing at player's heads to send a message, Todd agreed with me and now he is saying you can throw at someone's head as long as their hands are near their head which almost ever batter's hand will be if they are worth their salt or if they are Julio Franco.
If you are retaliating, you hit them below the neck....if you are sending a message, you sail one to get their attention. You never try to hit someone in the head or "throw at their head". Those are the rules I've always gone by.
Side note: I have never heard of the "aim for the hands" thing Todd is referring to, but I'm not saying some people don't do that...who knows. I just know Kendall wasn't trying to "throw at his head"...bc he wouldn't want to put his teammates at risk.
Side note: I have never heard of the "aim for the hands" thing Todd is referring to, but I'm not saying some people don't do that...who knows. I just know Kendall wasn't trying to "throw at his head"...bc he wouldn't want to put his teammates at risk.
I'm not sure where your disconnect is here, but you DO realize that throwing one behind or in front of someone is not "throwing at a player's head", right? It's like you keep trying to get us to say that he threw at his head, when he didn't.
He either threw it way high, or way behind...it wasn't "at his head". Why is that so hard to understand. The 17er can put it in a Dixie cup from the mound....if he wanted to "throw at his head" he would have accomplished it.
When you see this video you can see the ball the whole time...
Which confirms that you were right and that it did go behind his head, now how far is certainly up for debate but it was pretty close since Todd thought it passed in front of Katz's head and you can tell from this video that it passed behind his head.
As to your point about Kendall being a Maddux like clone regarding precision, maybe you are right, but it certainly was in that vicinity;
Which confirms that you were right and that it did go behind his head, now how far is certainly up for debate but it was pretty close since Todd thought it passed in front of Katz's head and you can tell from this video that it passed behind his head.
As to your point about Kendall being a Maddux like clone regarding precision, maybe you are right, but it certainly was in that vicinity;
I have had coaches in the past that actually told our starter to go out and the first pitch to their best hitter I want you to really let one slip, and try to get in their heads. I seriously think he was trying to get in Katz's head by sailing one behind him. Not really any different than when Randy Johnson threw one a foot or two behind John Kruk's head in the all star game that year. One was meant to be funny, one was meant to get in the others head or send a message....but neither were trying to cause harm or injury.
Like I said, every pitcher knows that throwing at a guys' head is a death wish for their teammates. I see what you're trying to say, but it's just a far fetch in my opinion. If this was LSU's pitcher throwing that same pitch at Renfroe, I'm thinking you are telling us it wasn't a big deal and not to overreact.
But I'm civil enough to just agree to disagree.
Like I said, every pitcher knows that throwing at a guys' head is a death wish for their teammates. I see what you're trying to say, but it's just a far fetch in my opinion. If this was LSU's pitcher throwing that same pitch at Renfroe, I'm thinking you are telling us it wasn't a big deal and not to overreact.
But I'm civil enough to just agree to disagree.
All of you are over analyzing this. It's really simple...
1. You guys are giving the pitcher way too much credit to think they can place a ball wherever they want at any given time. These guys practice throwing around the strike zone. Its not easy hitting a batter.... you havent practiced, people are watching you do this on tv, is the batter going to charge at you with his bat? Its not as easy as you guys are making it sound.
2. Plain and simple, If you dont want to get thrown at in the box, dont act like a d*ck on the baseball field.
In this case I can just about guarantee Katz wasnt targeted bc of his performance. He was either showboating or mouthing off the whole weekend. Again, dont be a d*ck and wont have to worry about getting hit.
1. You guys are giving the pitcher way too much credit to think they can place a ball wherever they want at any given time. These guys practice throwing around the strike zone. Its not easy hitting a batter.... you havent practiced, people are watching you do this on tv, is the batter going to charge at you with his bat? Its not as easy as you guys are making it sound.
2. Plain and simple, If you dont want to get thrown at in the box, dont act like a d*ck on the baseball field.
In this case I can just about guarantee Katz wasnt targeted bc of his performance. He was either showboating or mouthing off the whole weekend. Again, dont be a d*ck and wont have to worry about getting hit.
I'm sorry I'm not saying what you want me to say
I've been saying the whole time that the point is to send a message. Read the article again- or maybe just actually read it because I made it VERY clear what the difference is and why you throw it where you do. If you don't understand the difference between a hitter's hands and their head, I can't help you. If you don't WANT to understand the difference, I can't help you there either. What gets the message across better? A ball thrown near (not AT) someone's head or at someone's foot? If you do it the way you are SUPPOSED to do it, then no one's "health" is in jeopardy at all because the intent is NOT to hit or hurt anyone but again to send a message.
There is a BIG difference between sending a message and throwing at someone's head with the intent to hurt someone. When you brush someone back or knock them down, you are basically saying "get off the plate" or "don't do what you did again". That is what I am OK with.
Honestly, it sounds to me like you want me to talk out of both sides of my mouth because it would make you "right", but I'm not and I'm sorry that you are not correct in this.
Then you throw at the hands, which just happen to be by the guys head and you are ok with that. If you had ever played baseball you would know that almost every player has their hands near their head in their stance other than Julio Franco.
I mean only the following players hold the bat near their head:
I could go on and on, but Im not because you will simply talk out of your *** saying its ok to throw at someone's hands even if that is near their head which is contrary to your original post where you said you wouldn't condone throwing at someone's head.
You are now saying that the point is to send a message, so it sounds like you actually are ok with throwing at someone's head as long as his hands are there, which of course they would be.
I was being sarcastic about baseball knowledge and no one that has actually played the game would be ok with someone throwing near someone's head, regardless of where his hands are. You can send a message without risking a player's health especially in college.
I've been saying the whole time that the point is to send a message. Read the article again- or maybe just actually read it because I made it VERY clear what the difference is and why you throw it where you do. If you don't understand the difference between a hitter's hands and their head, I can't help you. If you don't WANT to understand the difference, I can't help you there either. What gets the message across better? A ball thrown near (not AT) someone's head or at someone's foot? If you do it the way you are SUPPOSED to do it, then no one's "health" is in jeopardy at all because the intent is NOT to hit or hurt anyone but again to send a message.
There is a BIG difference between sending a message and throwing at someone's head with the intent to hurt someone. When you brush someone back or knock them down, you are basically saying "get off the plate" or "don't do what you did again". That is what I am OK with.
Honestly, it sounds to me like you want me to talk out of both sides of my mouth because it would make you "right", but I'm not and I'm sorry that you are not correct in this.
I agreed with you on what?
Again, please show my ONCE where I said it was OK to throw at someone's head. You have yet to do so.
That video angle is even worse than the first one
The only thing you can tell from that video is that the ball was above his head at some point, but you can't tell whether the ball was in front of or behind him based on that.
The only thing you can tell from that video is that the ball was above his head at some point, but you can't tell whether the ball was in front of or behind him based on that.
Oh sh*t. This newly posted video shows Graveman being told to do a head shot. Clearly intentional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euHfP6X_axY
When it pertains to the area in and around the strike zone, yes absolutely. When it comes to a pitch that is never practiced and a pitcher throws maybe once per year, yes sort of, but with much less accuracy and precision which is why I am saying dont judge a pitchers intent based on where the ball ended up. Mistakes are made and if not there wouldnt be any walks.
2 things...
..(1)unless I read it wrong, you said LSU threw @ Rea, and "this is the end of it." No, that's not the end of it. If your ***** coach starts crying to the media, it became a long term retaliation scenario. In other words, if we play LSU in the SECT, a LSU pitcher is going to throw @ a MSU batter. That's a given at this point. If we don't play LSU in the SECT, then a LSU pitcher will throw @ a MSU batter next year in Baton Rouge. (2) After reading this thread, I officially nonimate OMlawdog for the DDDY award.
..(1)unless I read it wrong, you said LSU threw @ Rea, and "this is the end of it." No, that's not the end of it. If your ***** coach starts crying to the media, it became a long term retaliation scenario. In other words, if we play LSU in the SECT, a LSU pitcher is going to throw @ a MSU batter. That's a given at this point. If we don't play LSU in the SECT, then a LSU pitcher will throw @ a MSU batter next year in Baton Rouge. (2) After reading this thread, I officially nonimate OMlawdog for the DDDY award.