USMNT/Soccer Thread
- Thread starter BigBlueSean_rivals178247
- Start date
No, it's that you completely failed to recognize that the best players in soccer history have all been under 6 foot and less than 180 lbs... Somebody who doesn't realize that isn't to be taken seriously when discussing soccer. Ronaldo is 6'1 170...
Chile has been a top 5 team in the world for several years now without a single player starting over 6 foot tall. Even at center back. Germany is a bit of an albatross but even this group they have right now is a touch small.
And T&T brought in a B team for these two games. They have several starters out and brought in guys from very low level leagues.
The guys playing for Costa Rica and Mexico will be playing their hearts out hoping to show well enough to be squad players going to the world cup. mexico played most of their starters the other night. They'll play a different group tomorrow but don't be fooled. Both squads will field solid lineups with players who have a lot to prove. Hondurans in particular will be going HARD for goals as they have a big goal differential to makeup with panama.
This does bring up an interesting debate. (before I begin, I haven't really formed an opinion yet)
The tallest countries on average tend to be Northern and Eastern European....Norway, Belgium, Denmark, Germany, Croatia, Czech, etc. The shortest tend to be in SE Asia and South America.....Indonesia, Philippines, Ecuador, Peru, etc.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/the-tallest-and-shortest-countries-in-the-world/
So, is height a benefit? A detriment? Neither?
My complaint with Pulisic was that he was short & slight & couldn't take a pounding long-term. I still am concerned but he's filling out. Never did think he wasn't talented.
Yes, a good number, not all, of best have been short but also rather stocky in my view. Not sure where I said you can't be short & good.
When referring to better teams being larger, I was referring to club teams. I don't think a WC champ team would stand a chance vs. Champions League champ.
If you got more, bring it on.
Height is a detriment, higher center of gravity lessens your agility and shiftiness for lack of better word... same reason you don't see 7 foot tall running backs, well there i guess you could have 7 footer full back but you'd never get a 7 foot tall Barry Sanders or Walter Payton.
Larger foot also decreases your margin for error when striking the ball.
Depends on position and style of play. For forever you wanted height in your Center Backs. Now with the development of the game and how so many teams play counter-attacking football, speed is a very important quality as well. That has what changed so much with Brazil. They went away from size in Thiago-Silva and David-Luiz and went with speed in Marquinhos and Miranda which enables them to recover better. Its why you are seeing Rudiger for Germany get more minutes over someone like Per Mertesaker. Speed. But you also want size to win aerial duels. There are some CB that have both size and speed. Varane for Madrid is a freak of nature. He is 6'3 and runs like the wind. Sergio Ramos, Gerard Pique, Boateng are a few others.
Also, if you are a team that is predicated on getting service to your strikers via crosses, you'd want a striker and Midfielders with some size so they can win headers. This is why someone like Olivier Giroud is so valuable. He is a 6'4/200lb striker. His strength and ability to win headers is stupid good. Other tall strikers that are very good are Zlatan Ibrahimovic (one of my fav's) he is 6'5/210. You also have guys like Romelu Lukaku, Christian Benteke, Eden Dzeko.
So basically it all comes down to how you want to play. If you wanna play like Man U, you want tall strong guys. They rely a ton on winning aerial duels. If you wanna play through the middle or rely on your CM's to do a lot of tackling you may want some size there like a guy like Paul Pogba (although he too is freak of nature). So if your desired style of play fits dudes with size, then its an advantage. If not, its a moot point.
He'll get bigger too probably.. he's only 19, he doesn't have to be 23 year old Anthony Davis vs 19 year old bigger, but he'll get bigger in training at Dortmund.
Something that's interesting.
The US has a current 323 million in population.
-In 1960, the amount of immigrants from South America was ~90k. As of 2014 it's over 2.9 million.
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/south-american-immigrants-united-states
-As of 1980, the immigrant population from Central America was about 354k. As of 2015, it's about 3.385 million
-As of 1970, there was about 80k African immigrants. As of 2015 there is 2.1 million
-The number of European immigrants has floated around 5 million since the 80's.
These are all areas where football is huge. Just based on the above population of immigrants alone (~13.385 million), this is close to the populations of Ecuador or Belgium. And obviously this doesn't take into account a ton of other factors. Assuming "The Wall" doesn't stop immigration completely *eye roll*, this could be a major catalyst for advancement of the sport in America.
The US has a current 323 million in population.
-In 1960, the amount of immigrants from South America was ~90k. As of 2014 it's over 2.9 million.
http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/south-american-immigrants-united-states
-As of 1980, the immigrant population from Central America was about 354k. As of 2015, it's about 3.385 million
-As of 1970, there was about 80k African immigrants. As of 2015 there is 2.1 million
-The number of European immigrants has floated around 5 million since the 80's.
These are all areas where football is huge. Just based on the above population of immigrants alone (~13.385 million), this is close to the populations of Ecuador or Belgium. And obviously this doesn't take into account a ton of other factors. Assuming "The Wall" doesn't stop immigration completely *eye roll*, this could be a major catalyst for advancement of the sport in America.
Me personally, Id want size in my wingers. Its why I really like a guy named Julian Draxler. He is 6'1, has great skill and has speed too... He is a nightmare for Fullbacks to match up with because most of the time FB are tiny and fast.
But what makes soccer different is SKILL. The perfect example of this is Andrea Pirlo. One of the all time greats. Slow as ****. Not very athletic. But damn the dudes vision, creativity and skill when he was at AC Milan was unlike anything the world has ever seen since Johan Cruyff. Thats the separation of the USMNT and the mediocre from the great. Its not speed or size or athleticism. Its skill on the ball. Its what makes Spain, Brazil, Germany, Belgium, Argentina so good. They have both of them. But the reason the US has a long way to go isnt due to physical attributes or athleticism. Its skill and creativity.
But what makes soccer different is SKILL. The perfect example of this is Andrea Pirlo. One of the all time greats. Slow as ****. Not very athletic. But damn the dudes vision, creativity and skill when he was at AC Milan was unlike anything the world has ever seen since Johan Cruyff. Thats the separation of the USMNT and the mediocre from the great. Its not speed or size or athleticism. Its skill on the ball. Its what makes Spain, Brazil, Germany, Belgium, Argentina so good. They have both of them. But the reason the US has a long way to go isnt due to physical attributes or athleticism. Its skill and creativity.
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The issue is this - Most of those folks are poor. Somehow in this country we have turned a sport for the poor everywhere else into a sport of the rich. My cousin plays club soccer. It costs his parent 1400 just to be on the team. Not to mention travel to tournaments, food, snacks, lodging etc. Thats why the MLS is so focused with expansion teams having training grounds and their stadiums near very Urban areas.
Just looked up his size: 139# & 5-8. Messi is 159, 5-7. So Messi is a bulkier short - my point originally about Pulisic.
Messi's agility and balance is just stupid though.
I make this comparison in soccer:
Messi is Steph Curry.
Ronaldo is Lebron James.
I'm wondering how motivated T&T will be to play this game. They know they aren't going and really have nothing left to play for other than national pride. USA better go in and take care of business tomorrow night. No ties! Win and we're headed to Russia next summer. It's that simple!
Well, I can see this.....but to a point. For RB's, there's a nice range of heights that seem to be the sweet spot. Either going above or below the range tends to lead to problems. I figured this would be the case.
So, is there a "sweet spot range" for positions?
What I read into the immigrant stats is an increase in football support in America.
I get frustrated when I hear someone in America say that soccer will never be big in America. To me it doesn't make sense. Do they not see what's happening? When I was a kid there were large sections of the US that didn't have soccer leagues.......now there is soccer just about everywhere. The immigrant population in the US as a whole was <10 million in 1970. Now it's well over 43 million......and growing quickly. There never was an MLS, now there is.....and it's doing pretty well from a viewership.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_United_States
Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if soccer passes baseball in ratings within the next 10-20 yrs.
I just would love to see the US's ~320+ million in population empowered. Chile (~18 million) and Peru (~31 million) typically put out quality national teams. Now, certainly, we have a long way to go to achieve the quality of soccer that they do per capita......however, the significant population volume that we have may be enough to flip the balance.
I was watching a series of ESPN videos and they were saying that America does a good job with youth soccer, but they fail miserably once kids grow up a bit. They said that other countries will identify kids and ship them off to academies. They were saying that America doesn't do a good job developing kids during the teenage yrs.....mainly due to the high school and collegiate systems......but they are improving.
IMO we need to do away with College Soccer. Its pointless.
I don't know if I would "do away with it." In fact, I don't know how you could with Title IX.....cause pulling the plug on men's soccer would mean pulling the plug on some scholly's from the women's side.
Does the MLS have a developmental league? Are they doing well enough to support one? I would think that's the only way that you could get rid of college ball. Only a very small few players would be good enough to make the jump to pro out of HS.......the vast majority would have to go to college or some sort of developmental league. And even if there was a developmental league, it could still exist alongside college ball.
FC Dallas has a really good development academy. I think you're going to start seeing more of those in America - including some set up by European teams.
You have to have a development league to be in the MLS now and it's been pretty successful. They need to have some other regional ones as well given the size of the US. It's a good start though. Cincinnati is building one just to check off that box.
Also, T&T moved the location of tomorrow's game because it doesn't matter and they wanted to save money. And it's flooded.
Also, T&T moved the location of tomorrow's game because it doesn't matter and they wanted to save money. And it's flooded.
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Right before Klinsmann took over and since US Soccer started the "development academy" system. It organized the top level club teams in a way that A. they focused on development of players more than winning. and B. Put a "from the back" system of training in place.
The criticism that soccer is a "rich" sport in america is way off mark. I'm at soccer fields most every weekend and usually the most well funded and top teams are incredibly diverse wtih multiple languages spoken. if a kid is talented the clubs will fund a scholarship for the kid.
The training kids are getting at these clubs is much better than it was just 8 years ago. Those kids are now starting to filter through. That's why you see kids like sargent, Akinola, Carolton etc... being considered such high level prospects. Not just in the USA but in the world.
The MLS teams are now taking youth development more seriously. This is also getting kids more and more training.
We are now seeing the fruits of this in our youth teams. We consistently got knocked out early/didn't qualify for youth level world cups. Now we are qualifying and winning games at them. Our U-17's look to potentially be a golden age group of talent. They're going to win a very tough group. They beat Ghana, usually a favorite at youth tournaments today.
US Soccer is doing the best job BY Far that it has ever done at developing youth players. We will continue to see the rewards from that.
And. In terms of the size debate. you said he was too small to be good. you were wrong. Just admit it. Of course he will continue to fill out. he's filled out a ton in the last year.
The criticism that soccer is a "rich" sport in america is way off mark. I'm at soccer fields most every weekend and usually the most well funded and top teams are incredibly diverse wtih multiple languages spoken. if a kid is talented the clubs will fund a scholarship for the kid.
The training kids are getting at these clubs is much better than it was just 8 years ago. Those kids are now starting to filter through. That's why you see kids like sargent, Akinola, Carolton etc... being considered such high level prospects. Not just in the USA but in the world.
The MLS teams are now taking youth development more seriously. This is also getting kids more and more training.
We are now seeing the fruits of this in our youth teams. We consistently got knocked out early/didn't qualify for youth level world cups. Now we are qualifying and winning games at them. Our U-17's look to potentially be a golden age group of talent. They're going to win a very tough group. They beat Ghana, usually a favorite at youth tournaments today.
US Soccer is doing the best job BY Far that it has ever done at developing youth players. We will continue to see the rewards from that.
And. In terms of the size debate. you said he was too small to be good. you were wrong. Just admit it. Of course he will continue to fill out. he's filled out a ton in the last year.
I disagree too that it's for the rich. To be in most leagues it's pretty darn cheap. For the vast, vast majority of players the regular leagues are more than fine. It's the few who "need" the challenges and experiences of elite traveling leagues where the costs come in.
Even the top youth clubs. Go watch a big state level tournament and you'll see all types of people.
Looks like the typical Road situation in concacaf. We'll be playing on a middle school level field tonight that had a foot of water on the sides and corners on it yesterday. Just have to battle through and get the result...
I suspect we see something like this tonight. I'll include the striker this time.
Altidore
Bedoya Pulisic Arriola
Accosta Bradley
Viafana Besler Cameron Yedlin
Guzan
I think there is a chance we see cameron in for accost and we see the same back line as we saw against Panama... But I think Wood's knee issues keep him out of the starting lineup for this one. And with no jordan morris I don't think we can start Dempsey or Wondo as a second striker. I tihnk it morfs into a 4-1-3-2 like we saw the other night with pulisic moving up the field some. But Accosta has played well when he's had Bradley there to tell him what to do.
I'll jump ahead... But I think we field the best ever USA starting lineup in world cup history this summer...
Altidore Wood
Nagbe Pulisic Arriola
Bradley
Viafana Brooks Cameron Yedlin
Howard
That's a very very good group.
If Johnson can get back into form I think he could supplant nagbe. I also think you could see weston mckinnie work his way into the accost role when we play 2 central midfielders...
I suspect we see something like this tonight. I'll include the striker this time.
Altidore
Bedoya Pulisic Arriola
Accosta Bradley
Viafana Besler Cameron Yedlin
Guzan
I think there is a chance we see cameron in for accost and we see the same back line as we saw against Panama... But I think Wood's knee issues keep him out of the starting lineup for this one. And with no jordan morris I don't think we can start Dempsey or Wondo as a second striker. I tihnk it morfs into a 4-1-3-2 like we saw the other night with pulisic moving up the field some. But Accosta has played well when he's had Bradley there to tell him what to do.
I'll jump ahead... But I think we field the best ever USA starting lineup in world cup history this summer...
Altidore Wood
Nagbe Pulisic Arriola
Bradley
Viafana Brooks Cameron Yedlin
Howard
That's a very very good group.
If Johnson can get back into form I think he could supplant nagbe. I also think you could see weston mckinnie work his way into the accost role when we play 2 central midfielders...
BEIN tonight? Really?
Another reason USA soccer will never be. Massively Gigantically important game and most of the country wont be able to watch it live.
That wont happen in most countries in a similar situation. In most countries in the world if their team wins tonight and qualifies for the WC, they will still be celebrating, off school, and off work for a couple of days.
Most of the USA wont even know if we qualify or not.
Another reason USA soccer will never be. Massively Gigantically important game and most of the country wont be able to watch it live.
That wont happen in most countries in a similar situation. In most countries in the world if their team wins tonight and qualifies for the WC, they will still be celebrating, off school, and off work for a couple of days.
Most of the USA wont even know if we qualify or not.
It has ZERO to do with the USA. The TV rights for all World Cup qualifiers are set by the host team.
It would actually happen to EVERY country in a similar situation.
EXACTLY.. The host team takes the highest bidder for these games.
And... Does the guy you responded to not realize that Conembol is playing on the exact same channel tonight?
And if you have the sports package on directv you get bein...
I can tell you anecdotally that a lot more Hispanic kids are playing for my kids' club program - which I view as a very good thing.
What exactly is so stupid? Maybe I don't understand the complexities of television rights, but T&T is so rich in offers that nobody from ESPN or FOX could make a deal to make sure that game was put on a bigger network? Have seen cricket from other countries. Hockey world championships from other countries. U-19/21 soccer tournaments from New Zealand and Africa.
Just seems to me if there was major interest and major dollars available from advertising, this important game would be available in some aspect other than BEIN.
A multitude of thoughts:
1. Too much thought is put into when the US plays well or poorly; too much of the burden is shouldered by Pulisic. What should be abundantly clear is that Altidore is the difference between CONCACAF versions of good or mediocre. When he is on he is a truck who commands alot of attention from a backline. His hold up game and the passing he has demonstrated with his back to goal in the last two years at Toronto FC is a critical compliment to: A. Pulisic's attacking ability and, B. Wood's craftiness inside the box. They meshed very well against a Panama who had only yielded five goals in Hex qualifying. We gave up nearly that many at Costa Rica alone.
2. ...and in that light, size doesn't matter until it matters. Altidore's physicality by the sport's standard is his greatest attribute and I'd add something important to watch in 2018 post-WCQ and pre-World Cup...John Brooks is going to be the centerpiece very likely in what the US does going forward, as he's emerging when healthy as one of the most talented centerbacks in Europe. I think we'll see a little churn in the US roster on that backline though as the earlier poster pointed out, Yedlin makes an incredible difference. I think we'll see Miazga in and obviously Brooks and it would spell Besler and perhaps Gonzalez out. Cameron will be on for his versatility alone. The real deal will be will Arena carry a roster built around a four man backline, or will he go with some sort of three man backline where he has FBs and wings very well suited for it and we sprung with great effect on Mexico.
3. If you want to know the pure truth, as much a fan as I am of Nagbe I think one thing has to be fixed to have any realistic opportunity to advance out of Group at the World Cup, and that's who plays up top of Bradley as an 8. We caught Panama with their pants down with the attacking lineup, but we were stretched dangerously in that match because we played with wings not supporting inside. Acosta was pretty bad in September...could Weston McKennie get the nod or be introduced into the Pool? Most countries are hesitant to change their approaches too much, but that particular spot is where we juggled Bradley, Beckerman and Jones for years.
I have also watched with interest the U17 WC because we're almost upside\down to the National Team there; really scrambling around a bit with the centerbacks where they had Durkin briefly. That kid has been a God send playing as either a 6 or an 8. They simply outwilled a very talented Ghana when it was all said and done. I love watching Sargeant but he's definitely somebody a World Cup cycle away. To be able to bring a Weah or an Akinola as an outside striker off the bench is something we've never seen at the US Youth Level. When it's all said and done I'm not so sure Weah might be not end up being the best of this group...Sargeant included.
1. Too much thought is put into when the US plays well or poorly; too much of the burden is shouldered by Pulisic. What should be abundantly clear is that Altidore is the difference between CONCACAF versions of good or mediocre. When he is on he is a truck who commands alot of attention from a backline. His hold up game and the passing he has demonstrated with his back to goal in the last two years at Toronto FC is a critical compliment to: A. Pulisic's attacking ability and, B. Wood's craftiness inside the box. They meshed very well against a Panama who had only yielded five goals in Hex qualifying. We gave up nearly that many at Costa Rica alone.
2. ...and in that light, size doesn't matter until it matters. Altidore's physicality by the sport's standard is his greatest attribute and I'd add something important to watch in 2018 post-WCQ and pre-World Cup...John Brooks is going to be the centerpiece very likely in what the US does going forward, as he's emerging when healthy as one of the most talented centerbacks in Europe. I think we'll see a little churn in the US roster on that backline though as the earlier poster pointed out, Yedlin makes an incredible difference. I think we'll see Miazga in and obviously Brooks and it would spell Besler and perhaps Gonzalez out. Cameron will be on for his versatility alone. The real deal will be will Arena carry a roster built around a four man backline, or will he go with some sort of three man backline where he has FBs and wings very well suited for it and we sprung with great effect on Mexico.
3. If you want to know the pure truth, as much a fan as I am of Nagbe I think one thing has to be fixed to have any realistic opportunity to advance out of Group at the World Cup, and that's who plays up top of Bradley as an 8. We caught Panama with their pants down with the attacking lineup, but we were stretched dangerously in that match because we played with wings not supporting inside. Acosta was pretty bad in September...could Weston McKennie get the nod or be introduced into the Pool? Most countries are hesitant to change their approaches too much, but that particular spot is where we juggled Bradley, Beckerman and Jones for years.
I have also watched with interest the U17 WC because we're almost upside\down to the National Team there; really scrambling around a bit with the centerbacks where they had Durkin briefly. That kid has been a God send playing as either a 6 or an 8. They simply outwilled a very talented Ghana when it was all said and done. I love watching Sargeant but he's definitely somebody a World Cup cycle away. To be able to bring a Weah or an Akinola as an outside striker off the bench is something we've never seen at the US Youth Level. When it's all said and done I'm not so sure Weah might be not end up being the best of this group...Sargeant included.
So, you're not trolling, you're just the latter, I get it. It's not complex, and anyway, Wildcat Willy and goukcatsgo answered your question already, but I'll repeat. The host nation of the game controls the TV rights. BeIN sports outbid the others; they're based in Qatar, which probably explains why they can do that. Those other sporting events you mention probably had dirt cheap broadcast rights, so that's how/why they ended up as filler for ESPN or whatever.
https://www.ussoccer.com/about/us-soccer-media-services/faqs-world-cup-qualifying-television-rights
This is great to hear. With new talent filtering through, what is your prognosis on the future? Granted we still have a long way to go, but do you expect us to be significantly improved for WC 2026 or 2030?