Vaccines - Greater Good or Curtailing Freedom?
- Thread starter CatDaddy4daWin
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The point that also seems to escape most.
Autism sucks, it's sad but it's really not that bad compared to the fact that even if it was related at 4 per million vaccines it's not worth the death rate or side effects caused by MMR. Not to mention the damn cost of treating those poured into the health care system.
SMH. What a ridiculous argument and I know 2 very intelligent, hard working families that opted against them. Unreal.
Autism sucks, it's sad but it's really not that bad compared to the fact that even if it was related at 4 per million vaccines it's not worth the death rate or side effects caused by MMR. Not to mention the damn cost of treating those poured into the health care system.
SMH. What a ridiculous argument and I know 2 very intelligent, hard working families that opted against them. Unreal.
(I know you're joking) and just going to throw this out there. Maybe diagnosis criteria has changed.
Mental health practioners are getting better at diagnosing autism (but ironically not at ADHD, which is WAY over diagnosed-but another day, another discussion.)
People who don't get vaccinations and are fortunate not to get measles and those other lovely diseases can thank the rest of us who did (the herd.) When the herd immunity isn't there, and you have people from foreign places coming to this country, guess who gets the measles.
I think it's great people are trying to learn about these things and form their own opinions, just wish they would listen to others who have spent way more time studying to become experts of evidence based medicine.
People who don't get vaccinations and are fortunate not to get measles and those other lovely diseases can thank the rest of us who did (the herd.) When the herd immunity isn't there, and you have people from foreign places coming to this country, guess who gets the measles.
I think it's great people are trying to learn about these things and form their own opinions, just wish they would listen to others who have spent way more time studying to become experts of evidence based medicine.
Joey, I'm sure you're very proud of yourself, using all those big words and all. Get off your high horse man, this is a message board, you're not smarter than anyone else, even though you think you are. You're just a douchebag with a complex, it's ok, you're not fooling anyone either .
My point was and is, do we need the government telling us how to raise our children, and where do we draw the line? I joined this discussion to just bounce around ideas. I didn't realize I was going to get the wraith of Joey Erruption, or sway anyones opinion, wasn't my intention.
The point on the flu vaccine was supposed to be a ridiculous statement, but apparently it flew right over your head.
Look, You don't have to agree with me, thats fine, but you completely overreacted. All I said was a parent should be able to choose, not that I think children shouldn't be vaccinated. Lighten up brother, it's all good.
My point was and is, do we need the government telling us how to raise our children, and where do we draw the line? I joined this discussion to just bounce around ideas. I didn't realize I was going to get the wraith of Joey Erruption, or sway anyones opinion, wasn't my intention.
The point on the flu vaccine was supposed to be a ridiculous statement, but apparently it flew right over your head.
Look, You don't have to agree with me, thats fine, but you completely overreacted. All I said was a parent should be able to choose, not that I think children shouldn't be vaccinated. Lighten up brother, it's all good.
Freedom of choice is an interesting topic. When you're 18 you get to make those choices for yourself. Until then, your parents have the final say...unless of course their beliefs are detrimental to the child's welfare. At which point, the government can step in and do what is considered in the best interest of the child.
Haven't really heard about this with immunizations, but it happens all the time with Jehovah's witnesses and blood products. Lawsuits will fly, but so long as the doctors went about it the right way, never sticks.
Haven't really heard about this with immunizations, but it happens all the time with Jehovah's witnesses and blood products. Lawsuits will fly, but so long as the doctors went about it the right way, never sticks.
Ah, so the Internet causes Autism.Originally posted by buckmaster022:
(I know you're joking) and just going to throw this out there. Maybe diagnosis criteria has changed.
You are wrong. I am much smarter than a lot of people and definitely smarter than you.
That statement is not borne out of a complex. I know I'm not the smartest person in this thread and I am not on a high horse. I am on a miniature horse at best but I am still heads and shoulders above you and your ilk. In what universe should your vote and opinions be on an equal footing to mine?
The point you want to "bounce around" should have been explained to you as a child. And yet, here you are posing it as an actual point to ponder with other adults. Hmm.. Hmm.. Yes, good point, Bill. You really have the tiger by the tail with this one! You should have disclosed to us that you were the author of the original Mind Trap game before you deigned to engage with us in this intellectual pursuit. You cad, you!
Ideally, we (society) draw the line where your rights end and others' rights begin. Your fist ends where their face begins, Bill. This is a basic concept that you should have been taught in middle school social studies class. In a worst case scenario, you would've picked this up late in a high school political science course. But, I guess someone dropped the ball.
Let me know if you would like any other 6th grade concepts explained to you Bill. I have a hankering to explain the Krebs Cycle if you're interested.
Most importantly: Keep slingin' those commas, Bill!
This post was edited on 2/3 5:11 PM by Joey Rupption
Chase, I was just trying to play devils advocate with my initial post. I agree with vaccinating your children, I somewhat foolishly thought it was common place to get your child vaccinated. I think we're making a huge deal out of something that isn't there.
As Joey so eloquently told me, 92% of children are vaccinated for measles. It should be higher, but forcing people isn't the answer in my mind. Educating people on the benefits would be a better way. In a way this outbreak of measles will help with that in the long run, when was the last time you've heard of someone having it? People forget, and think well we don't get it here anymore why vaccinate?
Just my 2 cents
As Joey so eloquently told me, 92% of children are vaccinated for measles. It should be higher, but forcing people isn't the answer in my mind. Educating people on the benefits would be a better way. In a way this outbreak of measles will help with that in the long run, when was the last time you've heard of someone having it? People forget, and think well we don't get it here anymore why vaccinate?
Just my 2 cents
No, we do have to force people on this issue. And I'm serious. 40% of Americans can't even pass the goddamn citizenship test.
I've been to PTA meetings. Those wenches are not competent to make these types of decisions.
I've been to PTA meetings. Those wenches are not competent to make these types of decisions.
Joey, I apologize if I offended you. I let my emotions get the best of me..
This post was edited on 2/3 7:28 PM by Bill Derington
This post was edited on 2/3 7:28 PM by Bill Derington
Smart vax philosophy vs Max vax philosophy
A parent could gauge a child's risk of vaccine-injury, and optionally make changes to the child's vaccine schedule to reduce this risk, by following this SmartVax approach to vaccines:
Step 1 -- Vaccine Decisions to make during pregnancy: Decide whether the pregnant mother will get the flu vaccine during pregnancy and will be tested for HepB, and then decide whether the newborn will get the HepB vaccine at birth (seeMonitor for vaccine reactions)
A parent could gauge a child's risk of vaccine-injury, and optionally make changes to the child's vaccine schedule to reduce this risk, by following this SmartVax approach to vaccines:
Step 1 -- Vaccine Decisions to make during pregnancy: Decide whether the pregnant mother will get the flu vaccine during pregnancy and will be tested for HepB, and then decide whether the newborn will get the HepB vaccine at birth (seeMonitor for vaccine reactions)
I received a message on My Chart last week that said I was overdue for a vaccine. It was for a Tdap vaccine due since May of 1971. I was in the fifth grade then and remember getting several vaccines at that grade school over the years.
I did a little research and found I should get this if I'm going to be around infants 1 year or younger. Gonna use that get out of jail free card whenever the opportunity arises, even though I'll get the vaccine if my doctor suggests it.
I did a little research and found I should get this if I'm going to be around infants 1 year or younger. Gonna use that get out of jail free card whenever the opportunity arises, even though I'll get the vaccine if my doctor suggests it.
the thing about freedom of choice is your rights end when others begin.
If you bring your measles infected child to Disneyworld and endanger the lives of children, that is now negligence on your part.
Its not a common cold we're talking about, I have a more than reasonable expectation to bring my child to Disneyworld (or anywhere else) and should have zero concerns about contracting measles.
If you don't vaccinate your child, my libertarian beliefs say that is your choice (but is it the child's choice - another issue) but you have a different set of responsibilities to the population at large because of your decision and that would include criminal charges brought on you if your child is not only the zero patient but any link in the chain of epidemic.
If you bring your measles infected child to Disneyworld and endanger the lives of children, that is now negligence on your part.
Its not a common cold we're talking about, I have a more than reasonable expectation to bring my child to Disneyworld (or anywhere else) and should have zero concerns about contracting measles.
If you don't vaccinate your child, my libertarian beliefs say that is your choice (but is it the child's choice - another issue) but you have a different set of responsibilities to the population at large because of your decision and that would include criminal charges brought on you if your child is not only the zero patient but any link in the chain of epidemic.
jamo, you are correct that the right move is to vaccinate your children (i certainly will, when i have kids) but people should not be forced to do so. freedom of choice is a distinct issue from the rational course of action for the population's well being.
there is a lot of disinformation on vaccines out there, often disseminated by people well-intentioned people who believe they are helping (e.g. Jenny McCarthy). there is strong correlation between vaccination and and increased response of a human immune when it is again presented with an antigen of interest. there is a significant number of publicly available articles on this (just use google scholar).
the biochemistry of a single cell is complex enough that it is near impossible to deterministicly predict the effect of a particular molecule on a particular pathway. accurately predicting an immune response for a biological system as large as the human body is a tall order. however, general trends can be observed through a variety of simple(r) experiments.
for example, one can present an immune system of a similar organism (e.g. mouse, rat, etc.) when presented with a viral capsid (the protein that contains the nucleic acid of the virus). the protein might trigger an antigen response in the body--one that the body (a learning system, after all) remembers. the next time the body is presented with the protein (at the same concentration), it may trigger the antigen response again--and perhaps quicker. aha! a possible vaccine is born. fast forward two to fifteen years (60 to 450 man-years of effort) later, and you might have a vaccine that works (most of the time) for that disease of interest.
now you are presented with a binary choice: (a) give your child a synthetic biochemical that has a correlation with helping your child develop a more effective immune response or (b) don't give your child the synthetic biochemical (for whatever reason--from misinformed lunacy to a rational objection). as a future parent, i always want to have the ability to make this choice--i am very interested in the welfare of my future children. however, because they live in an interactive environment, their welfare is also dependent on the immune ability of other potential hosts (i.e. other people). hence, i am choosing to err on the side of giving them a biochemical that at best will help them combat disease (and also preserving the collective immunity of their community) and at worst degrade their health with very low probability (if it degraded their health with high probability, the FDA would never have cleared the vaccine--their review process is rigorous and laborious). as a added benefit, collusion with the rest of the parents who also made this rational choice, makes for a healthier environment for us as a species. my (unsolicited) advice? sex is fun, it's why you made kids. protect your investment, get them vaccinated.
It's a good one to get. If you step on a rusty nail within 5 years of getting it, you don't need anything.. if you don't, you'll need a a booster and immune globulin.
It also boosts your pertussis immunity which has been found to wane over the years, and it's another one of those diseases that's making a comeback (and it really sucks - it's known as the "cough of 100 days" for a reason).
Just read this at The Hill:
2. Notice the flop by Hillary. It will continue...
1. The anti-vaccine crowd has historically been on the left. It was a common rejoinder to the "Repubs hate science" chants. This whole freedom/small govt thing is a recent development.
2. Notice the flop by Hillary. It will continue...
I'm not sure how much more effort can be put into educating people when Jenny touchin' McCarthy is enough to sway them.
You may be right CB, somehow I doubt she swayed many people. I don't think there's an issue with people getting their kids vaccinated. I think both sides of the extreme are full of ****. That includes the side that says kids are getting autism from it, and people who say I got my kids vaccinated for you.
I didn't get my children vaccinated because I was trying to protect society, it was to protect them from society. Because no ,atter how hard we try, or how many laws we pass, in the end all you can control is what you do, end of story. I cant control what my neighbor does with their children, or how they raise them, or how they choose to treat them.
Anyway, CB, I wasn't directing that at you, jsut got on a rant.
I didn't get my children vaccinated because I was trying to protect society, it was to protect them from society. Because no ,atter how hard we try, or how many laws we pass, in the end all you can control is what you do, end of story. I cant control what my neighbor does with their children, or how they raise them, or how they choose to treat them.
Anyway, CB, I wasn't directing that at you, jsut got on a rant.
Thanks Max, you're a great American. Here is an article that attempts to explain how freedom works. They may be YOUR kids, but they are part of OUR society.
Ymmot, so what are you proposing, that it should be against the law not to vaccinate? What else can we outlaw that poses a threat to society, why stop here. What about parents that don't pay enough attention to their kids, those little f**kers grow up to be crazy, that's a detriment to society. What about people that don't wash their hands after pissing and shitting, they should go to solitary confinement for a year, try to argue against that, I'm only thinking of the children. Blah blah blah
It's all garbage, of course a parent should get their kids vaccinated, it's common sense, which is what Paul basically said, but in the end it's up to the parents. You and I both think the same thing, children should be vaccinated, as does Paul. You're for forcing them too, Im not.
It's all garbage, of course a parent should get their kids vaccinated, it's common sense, which is what Paul basically said, but in the end it's up to the parents. You and I both think the same thing, children should be vaccinated, as does Paul. You're for forcing them too, Im not.
But we already do this, and vaccination carries much larger ramifications than some of the things we have laws against already. It's why you can't drive as fast as you want. It's why you can't have a grenade launcher. Not only do you not have the right to decide that your child be at risk of deadly disease, but you don't have the right to then let that kid loose on the rest of society.
I don't understand why this is even a "freedom" issue. We shouldn't have to make these freaks vaccinate their children, but if they won't do it without being "forced" then I guess we have to.
it is a freedom issue. no one else but me should be deciding what happens to my children. i'm all for vaccination, but the united states isn't a socialist dictatorship either. parents should be *encouraged* to vaccinate their kids, not forced.
Gonzo, What should we do if a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child? Arrest them, take away the kids? Are the kids an imminent threat to society? Exactly how far are we willing to take it?
People make poor decisions everyday that affect other people in some form or shape. I'll bet everyone of you break the speed limit at some point during the day, our carelessness is putting other peoples lives at risk, should our driving privledges be taken away? See how ridiculous the 2 comparisons are.
People make poor decisions everyday that affect other people in some form or shape. I'll bet everyone of you break the speed limit at some point during the day, our carelessness is putting other peoples lives at risk, should our driving privledges be taken away? See how ridiculous the 2 comparisons are.